RE: Reality versus Theory (Full Version)

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seeksfemslave -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 8:44:40 AM)

LadyE: I introduced the plight of this family as an example of the social breakdown that has occured in the UK and related it to the context of this thread which is...has Liberalism, or more accurately PC permissive Liberalism, failed the UK. This family and thousands like them prove the answer is YES.
I do not seek to diminish their problems or social status. I am working class  common and scruffy myself.

In a failing economy, and that failure has been almost encouraged and certainly has been abetted by the permissive uber class, people like this are going to be in deep shite.
The answer I feel is along the lines of firm discipline and after a certain period of claiming benefit directed labour. Disregard those  who bend over backwards finding excuses for feckless irresponsibilty.
The assembly line production of children has to be faced down and these people  must realise that tax payers support will be limited. As of now they are actually encouraged to carry on producing children who when adults perpetuate the problem.

If the current banking crisis really is as serious as reading between the lines it might be then IMO quite soon all hell will break loose.



LadyEllen -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 9:21:13 AM)

Agreed on the banking situation - its going to be a big one when it hits properly.

But its also reason for hope and change - much of the current socio-economic problem has its origins in these money men and politicians who made fast bucks from destroying the jobs of millions. Now that the house of cards they built in the place of real wealth generation is coming down, there is opportunity now to reject their methods wholeheartedly and in the post bust economy, to generate manufacturing here again, with a cost base lowered by the crisis and otherwise engineered by better leaders absent the "advice" of those out for themselves only. All of the "rejects" in work - imagine that and the better country it would be for it, for all concerned.

E



RealityLicks -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 9:27:23 AM)

Yippee, back to the chicken factory we all go.  Will they let us whistle while we work?



seeksfemslave -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 9:34:39 AM)

I wouldn't hold out too much hope for your scenario LadyE. A lot of metaphorical blood and maybe some of the real stuff will have to be spilt to bring it about.

In the 1920's UK economic crisis orthodox economic methods were rigorously applied, by Churchill amongst others. ie drive down wages, in the case of miners by statute I think, reduce government spending and stay on the gold standard until so much gold was was withdrawn the powers that be got the message. Devaluation of the currency followed I think. I am arguing from memory.

Keynes came along and advocated more positive government financial intervention which has eventually led us to the unsustainable level of expenditure. welfare and military, we have today.



kittinSol -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 9:39:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

In the 1920's UK economic crisis orthodox economic methods were rigorously applied (...) Devaluation of the currency followed I think. I am arguing from memory.



You don't show your age, seeks [:D] .



RealityLicks -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 9:43:11 AM)

[sm=biggrin.gif]

Be careful, he might introduce you to his ancient wrinkled retainer.



RCdc -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 9:48:25 AM)

I do not believe it should be left to the public.  Their view would be tainted and not unbiased.
Laws should not be decided by the public, what are you looking for, lynch mobs?  Witch hunts.  That occured years ago - I have no desire to see public duckings and stocks.
 
I believe your view is tainted A.  It is biased and it shows in the post - by calling 'theorists' as you call them ' elitists' shows that you, the public, cannot be trusted to give a fair evaluation of a situation - particularly in light of the programme you mentioned.
Name calling is still name calling.
 
the.dark.



RealityLicks -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 10:13:51 AM)

The OP has posited that victims and their familes should have more say in the punishment of offenders, yet those who support that stance attack the victim's families for purportedly receiving benefits.  That means that someone on benefit doesn't deserve justice, only those in work. 

If being "liberal" is wrong, I don't want to be Right.



LadyEllen -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 10:22:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

The OP has posited that victims and their familes should have more say in the punishment of offenders,


We should also bear in mind that legal systems which have such provisions are the same systems we regularly show disdain for - eg Saudi Arabian law.

E



RCdc -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 12:35:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
If being "liberal" is wrong, I don't want to be Right.


I agree.
 
the.dark.



MasterWilliam55 -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 1:03:03 PM)

You certainly seem to have a handle on rhetoric. Where crime is concerned I sympathize with your frustration. We have the very same issues here in Canada. I don't believe there is an easy answer and I certainly don't believe I would like dictorship by the majority. What you are promoting is at the very least a populist dictorship and at its worst, anarchy. 



seeksfemslave -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 1:31:07 PM)

quote:

MasterWilliam
What you are promoting is at the very least a populist dictorship and at its worst, anarchy

Definitions...
Populism: When living in a democracy its what the people want but a minority of experts say they cant have. 
Anarchy:  When living in a democracy what may result when experts ignore the will of the people





MasterWilliam55 -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 9:47:39 PM)

populism....I think Marx pushed that to it's logical conclusion. (The people's party)
Anarchy....No government and no law.

Be carefull of what you wish for. Governments provide stucture so we can get on with our daily lives. Although they fail us in many instances (crime laws being one), I should point out that all Governments have not been able to find an consensus solution for all issues, one that is reasoned and appropriate.

I think what we are dealing with here are sentencing issues for convicted criminals. (Punishment vs reformation) I don't have an answer for this. I do suspect this though. If we deal with every issue through a referandum, we will give up many liberties we now enjoy.   



charmdpetKeira -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 9:59:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Who else thinks laws as to crimes should be in the hands of the public and not the elitists?


Depends, is the public able to handle such a responsablity?
 
It seems not, or I believe, they would be.
 
Do not feel bad, we have the same problem here.
 
k 



charmdpetKeira -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 10:20:51 PM)

If I may, I’d like to broaden the question to “Do Liberal Values Destroy”; in order for me to participate.
 
The answer is no.
 
It is the delusion that people are allowed liberty, when at the very least, their subconscious is telling them, “That’s not what’s going on here”.
 
People react to a situation, often in a manner attempting to balance “good” and “bad”, only to fail miserably, because the two terms that can not be balanced.
 
There is no such thing as “a little good” or “a little bad”.
 
Therefore causing a hinderence in the ability to handle the responsablity of making laws.
 
That being said; I do not feel the one's responsable for do it now, are handling the job any better.
 
k



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