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Unfair Punishment - 3/17/2008 6:11:39 PM   
MaxineANDjohnnie


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My relationship with my husband may have entered a new phase and I need a little advice or council.
Last night he hadn't done the grocery shopping by 6:00 as he usually does and I reminded him that he was running late.  He said that he thought we had agreed that he would do the shopping Monday night since he had to go to the drug store then anyhow.  I told him that I wanted rotissery chicken, potato salad and cole slaw and that he better get going.
After he left it seemed to me that we may have had a discussion about this but I didn't remember the details.  It also seemed to me that he had been a little insolent.  While he was gone I started stewing and got madder and madder.
When he got back I told him to unpack the groceries and to go stand in the corner, he wouldn'd be having any supper tonight.  He got angry, which hardly ever happens, and said it wasn't fair.  I told him that I didn't rember the grocery araingement but that in any case his insolence wasn't appreciated.
So he stood in the corner for like 2 1/2 hours.  I had had my dinner and had cooled off a bit.  I told him to come into the living room and we would have a little chat.  When we do this, which is not nearly as much as we used to, he kneels and I sit on the sofa.
Usually when I punish johnnie he gets quite submissive, but that didn't happen this time.  I asked him if he had learned to not talk back but he went into this big tirade about how it was unfair and that I had punished him for things that wern't his fault before.  I lost my temper and told him to go out and cut some switches.  He resisted this at first.  He has never done that before even though he really doesn't like this kind of punishment.  While he was stripping and I was tying him down over the desk he kept complaining about all of the times he had been punished unfairly.  This is all very atypical, I think I almost lost him last night.
I was really pissed by then, I wore out the bundle he had brought and had to go out and cut some more myself.  By the time I had come in from that I had cooled off, gave him a few more swatts sat down and watched a couple of hours of TV while he remained tied.  We aren't into bondage and I never leave him tied up like that.  I tie him down for switching because he can't remain still otherwise. 
Sometime during the beating or while I was watching TV he must have entered "subspace".  When I released him he could hardly stand.  I asked him how he was and he started crying and saying he was sorry.  He has never cried like this before, some tears on account of pain but that is it.  I put some lotion on his bottom but it is in really bad shape, he missed work today.  He is sleeping on the floor this week and he seems almost grateful, I honestly don't know if it's because he feels he needs the punishment or because he is afraid of me.
Today at work I was running through the whole thing in my head.  I was over the top in a scarry way.  Also I think it is possible that a few times I may have gotten it wrong in the past.  Whether or not this is true he seems to think that I am unfair sometimes.
Has anyone gone through something like this before.  I don't want to loose him but neither of us could be part of a vanilla relationship.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Maxine
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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/17/2008 6:29:45 PM   
xxblushesxx


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That'll turn me off very quickly.
The only thing that 'fixes' it, is when HoneyMaster admits what He did wrong, and why, and what we can do in the future to avoid it.
I can't be submissive to someone I can't respect, and I can't respect a 'dom' who doesn't take responsibility for his/her actions/words.
He may be grateful for sleeping on the floor because he is still angry at you, and instead of allowing him to express it, you took out your confusion and anger on him.

_____________________________

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A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/17/2008 6:32:06 PM   
Leatherist


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After reading through this-I would ask him if he thought you were going off the deep end-seriously.

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/17/2008 6:33:40 PM   
Shawn1066


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Well, do you accept that you can make mistakes?  Just from what you've posted here--and that's all I know--it does sound like you went -more- than a little overboard.  Now, you can run your house like you see fit, of course.  It's just my opinion that you took it a little too far.  He certainly didn't help matters either.  A grocery errand turned into something that made him miss work because of what sounds like a punishment given while you were still too angry to make a clear judgement.

Again, just my gut reaaction to your post.  I could be wrong.  I would advise that you talk to him about it, and be prepared to take a hard look at yourself.  If you feel you -have- been unfair, then apologizing would help.  If you feel you haven't been unfair, at least hear his point of view.  If he gives it in a calm, collected way, then it's worth listening to.  Just make sure the discussion doesn't turn into another argument at this point.  You both may need to wait a few days before things have simmered back down to where it can be discussed with a clear head.

Rough patches will happen.  But nothing should ever end with him being beaten so badly he can't even go into work the next day.  I just think, from what you've told us, that you lost your cool.  You're human, and if you feel you did, then you need to take responsibility, apologize, and take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again

Just my two cents,
DV's Fox



< Message edited by Shawn1066 -- 3/17/2008 6:36:02 PM >

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/17/2008 6:36:22 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I was over the top in a scarry way. Also I think it is possible that a few times I may have gotten it wrong in the past. Whether or not this is true he seems to think that I am unfair sometimes.
Has anyone gone through something like this before. I don't want to loose him but neither of us could be part of a vanilla relationship.


Tell him this.  The wise leader admits her error and confronts the issue directly.  Mistakes get made, and not just by submissives.  That is the order of things.

You made a mistake.  Acknowledging it to him is step one on learning to avoid that mistake in the future.


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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/17/2008 6:42:18 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Well if I were him, I would have been scared!

You're the leader.  It's your job to make the unpopular decisions, and your job to take the heat when they are wrong decisions.  Acknowledge it, and see what you can do to rebuild trust with your husband. 

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/17/2008 7:10:59 PM   
thetammyjo


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If you can't remember the details of a conversation, then what business do you have to punish someone about that conversation?

If you are punishing for "talking back" I think the first thing you needed to do was discuss what he talked back and why you felt it was talking back. Then any punishment should fit the crime. I frankly don't see how not eating and standing in a corner is a good correction for giving you information about why he didn't go shopping when you asked him and also admit you didn't remember the details of the conversation.

I think you have broken trust with him but not mastering yourself first and reacting in anger instead of acting out of a place of authority and power. You first necessary step is to apologize to him.

My second suggestion is for you both to set down a chore chart and post it where you can both keep track of it. If you makes changes from time to time, note that on the chart as well so neither of you can forget what's been said.

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/17/2008 7:49:34 PM   
chamberqueen


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My first thought when reading this and hearing about his attitude is that there may have been some outside influences at play.  Maybe he was blamed at work for something that wasn't his fault, or had problems at the grocery store or with traffic, and it all piled up.  Even though women typically go through more emotional mood swings it could be that he was really in need of care and consideration.

My advice would be to sit down and talk it out with him.  Ask him if he really feels unfairly treated, or if that was just his mood at the time.  Subs don't always share all of their feelings for fear that they will be displeasing and chances are that he is holding something inside.  Find out what is really going through his mind, giving him the chance to speak without being interrupted, and remember that everyone has the right to their emotions - whether they make sense to anyone else or not.  If you believe you were in the wrong and apologize for it you will both be, and appear as, a stronger person.  Give him some pampering if he needs it.  Nothing in that makes you a weaker Top but will grow his trust in you.

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/17/2008 8:53:09 PM   
DesFIP


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You punished him for not doing what you told him he could wait till Monday to do? And you don't even remember what you discussed but you decided to hell with it, you would punish him anyway? No wonder he was filled with resentment.

Then you lost it and hurt him until he was so badly hurt he couldn't even go to work. Plus reduced him emotionally to a broken, sobbing mess.

You've got a lot of work ahead of you to re-earn his trust. Starting with understanding the responsibilities of being the dominant and not just indulging yourself.

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/17/2008 10:57:34 PM   
chezzy52


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I suggest you do your own shopping next time to help right the wrong..and take him out for dinner..twice.and apologize of course.

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/18/2008 2:48:02 AM   
MasterFireMaam


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Advice: Don't punish out of anger. This goes for physical, mental and emotional punishment.

Next time, if there is one, cool off BEFORE sending him to the corner. Have the talk FIRST...you can always heat your dinner in the microwave.

Master Fire

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/18/2008 3:48:05 AM   
Politesub53


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 i see a great problem in carrying out punishment while you are still angry. Anger, at any time, tends to clouds ones judgement. Nothing wrong in punishing someone, but it needs to be done when you are in control of your anger, and not vice versa.

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/18/2008 4:36:46 AM   
LadyJeelys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxineANDjohnnie
While he was gone I started stewing and got madder and madder.



It sounds like this is where things went wrong. Heck, I think he's right to be afraid. Its not discipline to beat on someone cause you're mad, and its certainly not sharing pleasure with a masochist. So, yeah, if I were him, I'd be scared too.

So instead of looking at it like, "hey, I get to lay into you even when I'm out of control" or "we'll just be vanilla" why not have an honest discussion with him....one that begins with "I'm sorry". After all, it seems to me that you broke with his trust---in giving you the power over him to give discipline (and not just SM play) he's given you his trust that you have a core of control---self control. In responding in anger, when you weren't in self control (that you couldn't remember the discussion hints that you weren't fully in control) you weren't in a position to give him what he needs. Let him know that you realize things got out of hand and that you'll work to control you temper.

I'll be honest, I'm not a disciplinarian---I see plain as pleasure. At the same time though, my slave isn't a masochist. Even when I'm in a bad mood, he yields to what I want to please me..........but as a balance to his giving, when I'm ticked I don''t administer discipline. Discipline, unlike pain for sharing, has to be bound within order. Otherwise the slave can't avoid discipline because he can't follow the order in chaos.

Sooo, the other part of that conversation, might include you expectations. Maybe he's looking for discipline and you're not. If so, ya'll have to work on some sort of compromise. Besides, someone who just takes anything an everything is neither slave nor sub, they're just not smart.

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/18/2008 5:04:09 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxineANDjohnnie

I was really pissed by then, I wore out the bundle he had brought and had to go out and cut some more myself.  By the time I had come in from that I had cooled off, gave him a few more swatts sat down and watched a couple of hours of TV while he remained tied. 
Sometime during the beating or while I was watching TV he must have entered "subspace".  When I released him he could hardly stand.  I asked him how he was


First...it is not acceptable to raise your hand to a submissive in anger. Almost always it will result in abuse...as you sadly have found out.

What is more disturbing to me however...after you were done punishing him you left him tied while you sat comfortably down to watch the tube for a few hours. Only when you untied him did you ask if he was alright? HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND? You were abusive in punishing to an extreme when you were angry, but you kept up the abusive behavior for several hours afterwards.

As to the "subspace" you assume he entered...did it occur to you that this man could be in shock??


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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/18/2008 5:37:58 AM   
Smythe


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I agree with the excellent advice from Tammy Jo and others. I just wanted to add one thought.

Being a disciplinarian in a love relationship is sometimes difficult and hard to balance. I respect you for trying to make it work and learn from your mistakes. Basically, the only relationship that really parallels this is one of parent and child, where the parent must control behavior but still loves the child. You may not see your husband as a child but you can use parental guidelines to help you structure your behavior. Be a role model. Be fair and consistent. Don't be afraid to say when you are wrong. Never punish in anger.

Being a good parent requires selflessness at times, and even though it seems counter-intuitive, so does being a good Mistress.
Smythe



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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/18/2008 10:12:23 AM   
LilMissHaven


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I feel that is where speech restrictions inhabit a relationship especially one of this magnitude.

I have been in your subs shoes and I'm willing to bet his happiness at sleeping on the floor is not so much punishment he feels he earned but anger towards his treatment or that is how I often felt.

Luckily, there are a lot of very easy ways to prevent another situation like the one you have mentioned.  Very easy preventative steps you both can take. 

There will always be something new cropping up that will annoy you.  You cannot cover every single base.  My X Master and I discussed this after one especially unfair brutal punishment for a behavior I did not previously know grated on his nerves.

We finally agreed that first time accidental offenses would be talked over but no punishment would be given for the first time offense.  I also took it upon myself to keep a log of what was expected of me, things that irritated him, etc.  I took it upon myself to read this log every morning which resulted in my hardly ever needing more then a stern look.

My advice is for you both to forgive yourselves, communicate and move forward on a positive foot.

My best to you and yours,
Haven

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I must first learn to master myself, before I can truly be owned by one.

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/18/2008 10:40:20 AM   
colouredin


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As a few people have said, you really shouldnt punish when in anger because it can go too far. Seemed lik you were winding yourself up.

I know once when I was severly punished for a minor error I did what I was told but never trusted him afterwards. Of course its up to you to judge punishments, they are subjective of course, but if you feel you are out of line and he does then simply except it and say so. No one in infallible.


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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/18/2008 10:40:55 AM   
AquaticSub


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We've had a few mishaps where I was punished and shouldn't have been. Talk him, and not as your sub. Let him say what he needs to say and *don't* punish him for it. You need to hear what he has to say as much as he needs to say.

I'm not surprised he responsed the way he did, honestly. You need to hear him out, see if you've done something like this before and then you have do what a good leader does: Apologize (no simple "All right, I'm sorry, now give me a foot rub"), promise you will try to never let it happen again and do just that.
 
Also, I do have to agree - it was a huge mistake to strike him in anger. He should fear you until you learn to control your temper and if you don't, you may lose him.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/18/2008 10:48:52 AM   
MissHarlet


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First as others have said .. never ever punish when you are angry ... it almost always gets out of hand.

None of us are infalible.. and there is nothing weak about admiting you were wrong or overreacted.
I think a long talk is in order and the idea of writing a chore list is a good one .. it helps avoid this type of thing ....

You have trust to rebuild it seems to me .........good luck ....

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to be trusted you must be willing to trust.

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RE: Unfair Punishment - 3/18/2008 11:20:22 AM   
amayos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaxineANDjohnnie

Usually when I punish johnnie he gets quite submissive, but that didn't happen this time. I asked him if he had learned to not talk back but he went into this big tirade about how it was unfair and that I had punished him for things that wern't his fault before. I lost my temper and told him to go out and cut some switches. He resisted this at first. He has never done that before even though he really doesn't like this kind of punishment. While he was stripping and I was tying him down over the desk he kept complaining about all of the times he had been punished unfairly. This is all very atypical, I think I almost lost him last night.
I was really pissed by then, I wore out the bundle he had brought and had to go out and cut some more myself.
Sometime during the beating or while I was watching TV he must have entered "subspace". When I released him he could hardly stand. I asked him how he was and he started crying and saying he was sorry. He has never cried like this before, some tears on account of pain but that is it.
Today at work I was running through the whole thing in my head. I was over the top in a scary way. Also I think it is possible that a few times I may have gotten it wrong in the past. Whether or not this is true he seems to think that I am unfair sometimes.
Has anyone gone through something like this before? I don't want to loose him but neither of us could be part of a vanilla relationship.


So you are unfair sometimes. That does not justify excessive disobedience or attitude from your servant. When one looks soberly at the authority structure of a dominant / submissive relationship, it's quite clear in the fine print that it's "unfair" to begin with. There will of course be times you may make a wrong or unpopular decision as Mistress, but your boy kicking over the traces in that moment because he disagrees with your rationale is a grave warning sign—even if he knows he's right. There is wisdom in the idea that anyone can steer the ship in calm waters; it is doing well in the face of adversity that proves our mettle. To an extended degree, he must accept that your wrong is better than his right.

I for one do not think punishing in anger is wrong. I believe correction during or shortly after the time of offense is wise for a number of reasons, but with a few caveats: that we must be in control of ourselves, open to meaningful communication and always able to see the bigger picture. In so doing, you will be leading well. It is the absence of these qualities which subverts your own authority over time.

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