RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (Full Version)

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tsatske -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 5:42:40 AM)

I am a recovering alcoholic with over 2 decades of recovery.
You do not give someone an ultimatum to force them to change. You give them an ultimatum because you mean it. You say, stop listening to shit kicker on the damn radio or I'm leaving you because you really can't stand the sound of my music anymore, and you are perfectly willing to leave.
The only thing you can do for her is give her that last choice. No one can live with an active alcoholic, and be sane. It is not a possibility. This is why drinking, even as a 'no limits' slave, is one of my 'Big red no button' issues. I would be more willing to have Master kill me or amputate my legs (neither of which I am worried about him doing). If he kills me, well, I have no issues :). If he cuts off my legs, I believe he is capable of thinking through what that will mean for his life and standing by me. If he asks me to drink ( which he would NEVER do), it would be because he does NOT understand what the aftermath will look like. If I were to drink, he would eventually have to release me. No one can live with that.
She must, as some have said, 'hit bottom'. She really can not just choose not to drink, but she can choose to get sober. This is the way you ask her if she chooses you, or the drink. If she wants to stop, get her into an inpatient program, and visit on family day. You can help her. But you should seriously consider setting a limit that you will not move in with her until she has a year sobriety. Someone getting newly sober should not make that kind of major change, they should be concentrating on their sobriety. People are told all the time, 'don't get into a relationship - and don't get a divorce, either. No changes. Just stay sober.'
And get yourself to an al anon meeting, no matter what. No one can type here to explain what it is there that works, why it works for YOU, it just does. If you go to three and you hate it and it isn't working, well, that's one more thing in life you tried out. There won't be many men, but if you live in a big enough city, you may even be able to find an all men's al anon meeting. You will find al anon in your phone book. You can go to an open AA meeting, too, if you want to see what it is like.
Best of luck, my friend.



PonyGroom -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 5:43:21 AM)

quote:

I honestly today, feel like I have no other choice other then to pack it in and walk away for my own sanity. Part of me feels like I am being a quitter and that I'm gonna be letting her down in a major way. I know that this will cause her some hurt, and suspect it's been slowly distressing her as much as it has been me.


This could be a quote from a story in "Co-Dependant No More".  Great book, a classic read for those in relationships with alcoholics.

If she drinks habitually and abuses you or others or breaks things while intoxicated she is probably going to meet the tests for alcoholism. Here is a link to a common 20 question test you might be interested in running through. Just answer the Yes/No questions as if you were she: http://alcoholism.about.com/od/tests/a/quiz_alcoholic.htm

Consider reading the book. Consider Al Anon.  You got some great advice here.

You can't have a quality relationship with an addict.  You can have a co-dependant relationship and then take a path in life that teaches you how to get out of that relationship and avoid starting another like it. Been There Done That, all in the past now for me.

Feel free to email me privately if you want to talk it over.

Tim



chamberqueen -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 5:48:11 AM)

It is not uncommon for someone with a drinking problem to become angry when someone mentions their drinking to them.  (I consider drinking to be a problem when it causes problems for others - not the classical definition for alcoholism.)  I was married to an alcoholic.  He had anger management problems on his sober days.  Add drinking to the mix, and it meant calling the police at least once a year.  He even got so that he would call them on himself.

IF the two of you decide that she will stop drinking, even as a trial run, you will have to work with her on this.  You cannot drink in front of her or have alcohol in the house.  You can't buy her a six pack because she's been good and expect her to stop at 2 beers.  (My aunt has tried this again and again with my grown cousin and just doesn't get it.)

It hurts a lot when a relationship that seems so good sometimes goes to crap at others.  The tendency is to keep hanging in there hoping that a good time is coming back.  Tell her the truth, calmly and quietly.  Let her know that there are things that you love about the relationship but that when she drinks it is intolerable for you.  Promise to support her in every way, and let her know that there is no way that you can be happy if things continue as they have.  Be prepared for her anger.  If she choosess to continue down a self destructive path you are under no obligation to stay around and watch it.



LaTigresse -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 6:48:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

good advice indeed, but it is hard to drop people you feel a lott for.
just don't yourself be dragged into it to much.


Call me a cold hearted bitch but I am not staying in any relationship where the other person allows a negative to control their life. Been there, done that, have a closet full of the t-shirts. 30 years later, the ex still has the same drug and alchohol problems. A lifetime later, my father still drinks.

I would not recognise the woman I would have become had I not "dropped" their life drama. I cannot imagine what my children's lives would have been like had they been raised in that environment. I removed that hell from their's, and my lives, and have never regretted it for a split second.



Leatherist -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 7:00:45 AM)

When you get to this stage with people with drug dependency or mentall illness issues- you just have to step back until they realize they need to seek outside help,and that you probably aren;t qualified.

If they go into denial mode-move on.

There will be nothing you can do until they hit bottom and crash.



soul2share -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 7:29:50 AM)

My ex was a functioning alcoholic...that's not the whole reason why he's my ex, but that's another story.  There were other issues, and he wouldn't get help with an of them.  They were my problems, not his, as far as he was concerned.

I have to agree with what has already been said.  She will NOT seek help with her addiction until she is damn good and ready to.  Walking away from her in order to protect your own sanity is NOT wrong.....if she's destroying things in her drunken rage, then sooner or later, if it hasn't already, it will escalate to violence against you. 

I do have an idea of the feelings you are experiencing.....and they suck big time.  But after a while, I had to block myself off from the guilt that I felt.  I felt helpless because I couldn't stop him from drinking.....every time he'd go out with his friends, I'd pray he'd get home safe, without killing himself, or worse, some innocent person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  I'd plead with him to get help, but it fell on deaf ears.  Fortunately, he was a happy drunk.....never had a violent bone in his body.  Him getting arrested for DUI was the least of my worries.

As hard as it may seem, forget how awesome the connection is when she's sober.  Remember the things that happen when she's drunk.  Thinking of the good will only help bury the bad.  You have to ask yourself this...."Is the good worth living with the bad?"  I did, the answer was a resounding NO! 

Good luck with what ever you decide. 
m



Justme696 -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 7:52:52 AM)

quote:

I cannot imagine what my children's lives would have been like had they been raised in that environment.


Would a person abandon his children too when they don't accept help..or just friends.
( I know..a dirty question..but in the basis..not so different. I am beware of priotities in life. But some people run fast away when a "friend"is in troubles" . Instead of "trying"to help)



SimplyMichael -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 8:12:15 AM)

This post is going to ramble a bit so hold on.

Anytime you have chemistry, I think it is worth working at saving the relationship.

That said, you are both trapped in patterns,  yours is a co-dependent one, you NEED to have someone around who you feel better than, who you can fix, and who you can blame things on.  Of course some of that  may or may not be present but that is how that crap works.  Attend Al-anon is a help.  Most importantly, sit down and dispasionately write out what went wrong in your prior relationships, what red flags you ignored and look for patterns, twice it might be one, three times is a bingo!

Same for her, she has some inner demon that drives her to drink.  Now, as others said, you can't fix her or force her to fix herself.  What you can do, and bdsm can help, is to dig around and find out what in her past she uses the drinking to deal with.  If you can help her find that, she has a chance, might not be with you, but at some point.

Lastly, thank you for a very open and honest post full of vulnerability and utterly lacking in posturing, I for one greatly appreciate it and wish you the best of luck.



LaTigresse -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 8:12:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

I cannot imagine what my children's lives would have been like had they been raised in that environment.


Would a person abandon his children too when they don't accept help..or just friends.
( I know..a dirty question..but in the basis..not so different. I am beware of priotities in life. But some people run fast away when a "friend"is in troubles" . Instead of "trying"to help)


As a parent of adult children, and the exspouse of an addict who's best/worst enabler was their own mother, I can vehemently say that I will not tollerate addiction in my life. If it were my own child, they would either get help or suffer the consequences. My daughter will attest to that, as she inherited the genetic weakness of addiction and suffered the consequences in her teens. It would not mean I love them any less, I just will not allow that negative, toxic, garbage, to control  my life



Justme696 -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 8:14:47 AM)

quote:

It would not mean I love them any less


not gonna call you a cold bitch
thank you for the reply



daddyncherry -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 8:45:26 AM)

Owner, i contacted you on the other side[:)] 



Madame4a -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 8:46:07 AM)

I wanted to quickly add an experience of mine.  I had a boi, for almost four years -- we are still good friends -- it was a D/s relationship but long distance.  We saw each other about 6+ times a year.  After about a year, she confessed to me her gambling problem.

I thought long and hard about it.  I wasn't sure if I should interfere with her personal life apart from me, that included a partner, daughter and more family.  I knew I could not make her stop, even as her Dominant.  I did think though, that I had an opportunity and that it was worth the risk of losing her if I could help.  I told her she had to go to meetings and that I'd have to see some progress (I didn't by the way know enough about addiction at that point, I do now), or we would not plan our next visit.

She's been free of making a bet for more than four (might be five now) years.  That was NOT because of me.  Her confession was the beginning of her own process.  She always credits me with helping, but I don't believe I deserve that.  It would not have happened just because of me.

It can happen, but not because you are the dominant -- it must come from the person.



CalifChick -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 8:46:08 AM)

Well, I think this will shock people who know me, but I'm not going to say "cut and run."  For a while in my 20's, I was dating a guy who liked cocaine.  I didn't know this until a couple of months into the relationship. One evening I went over his house and he was obviously wired. That's when I found out. I stayed there that night, and he spent the entire night peeping out the window, convinced his ex-wife had someone watching his house, and all he had to do was catch them, and then he would know for sure. When I got up in the morning, he was still at the window, and had not slept.

I didn't like who he was when he was on cocaine. So I set a boundary. I told him I didn't like the person he was on coke, and I was choosing not to be around him when he did that. If he called me when he was high, I would not talk to him. If he came over, I wouldn't let him in my house. I set a FIRM boundary of basically, "You don't exist to me when you're on drugs."  One of the things that helped was that coke isn't cheap, so he wasn't doing this alot.

This worked for us, for the time that we were together. However, I also didn't see myself in a really long-term or permanent relationship with this guy. So, I would say evaluate what you've got.  Are you willing to deal with this in some fashion for the rest of your life? Do you want to deal with it for now, in the short term, and can you set the firm boundary?  Do you have the strength to say, "You don't exist to me when you drink"? (or whatever your personal boundary is)

By the way, I really disagree with the statement that people have to hit rock bottom before they seek help. I know alot of people who sought help when they were nowhere near "rock bottom".

Cali



angelikaJ -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 8:59:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick


By the way, I really disagree with the statement that people have to hit rock bottom before they seek help. I know alot of people who sought help when they were nowhere near "rock bottom".

Cali



Agreed,_there_are_"high_bottoms"_and_"low_bottoms"...it_is_different_for_everyone.



tsatske -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 9:07:19 AM)

quote:

Would a person abandon his children too when they don't accept help..or just friends.


To answer you, Justme. My children know that there is absolutely nothing they could say or do that would change my love for them. There is nothing that they could do or say or choose which would make me chose to have NO relationship with them. There are a few (and damn few) things that could happen in their lives which might cause me to confront them to such a degree that they MIGHT choose to cut off relations with me, but I can't really see those happening with my children. But, for instance, I have a brother and an adult nephew who are active drug uses. They chose to avoid family gatherings because they feel we are judgmental. (family called the police when they broke in and stole a registered gun. and, you know, you just don't report family like that....). They know they are welcome to be at family gatherings, they are not confronted when there, simply welcomed, but they choose not to be. On a regular basis they call family members and tell them that they have been out of work for a while, and they are out of food, could they borrow some money for groceries. No one says no. No one tells them 'get thee to the food pantry'. Also, no one tells them yes. No matter who they call and hit up for money, the answer is, 'I'll be over today with groceries. Would you like to come for dinner tonight?'

Not too long ago, my sons and I had a discussion about my best friends youngest boy, who is 19 and living in her basement. He is registered with the local union, so good paying work is available to him, he simply refuses to work. He has been fired from half a dozen job sites for failing his piss test, and arrested once at a party. But she insists her son is not doing drugs. I said to my sons, 'I hope you know, there is nothing you could ever do that would make me love you any less. But if I was pretty sure you were doing drugs, you would have to go live somewhere else.'
sometimes its not about loving, its about boundaries. Although, romantic love is different, and the simple truth is, if you are forced to set boundaries with a romantic love so high that you can not continue a romantic relationship with them, you may continue to love them, but, if they don't begin the recovery process, at some point, you are going to move on. That is one of the costs of addiction, I'm afraid.



DesFIP -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 9:49:12 AM)

You went out and found yourself someone who has a problem you are comfortable with because you grew up with this problem around. It feels familiar to you. Now you hope to have it work out and thus fix family of origin problems.

Does she admit she has a problem and she wants help dealing with it? Because if not, back off, she isn't going to quit yet. If she is ready, then find the name of an alcoholic counselor, and find a list of AA meetings in your area.

However if she's ready to quit, that's a full time job in itself and very often relationships don't survive that first year. Be prepared for it.



SailingBum -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 10:29:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

I cannot imagine what my children's lives would have been like had they been raised in that environment.


Would a person abandon his children too when they don't accept help..or just friends.
( I know..a dirty question..but in the basis..not so different. I am beware of priotities in life. But some people run fast away when a "friend"is in troubles" . Instead of "trying"to help)


You can't help someone who won't help themselves. That doesn't mean you stop caring for them.

BadOne



giveeverything -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 10:29:26 AM)

I agree with one thing that califchick said.. the "rock bottom" thing is an outdated model.  Experts in the field are finding that intervention can be much more effective, even if the person with a dependency is reluctant to do the treatment and does it out of cohersion.  It takes a lot of people to work an intervention and it has to be well orchistrated and the people invovled have to understand their relationship to the person and their addiction.  A key factor is that the group intervention means that there are more people watching, monitoring and helping the addict and that the addict has more people who are keeping tabs on them.  There are professionals who work on these issues, mostly working with the friends and family members to help them on their end of the enabling. 

That being said.  I don't know that I would stay.  It sounds like it is taking a terrible toll on you.  It's okay to say that this isn't the right relationship for you, that is legitamate.  It doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't make you a less caring person, etc.  Good luck... and btw, I've lived with addicts my entire life (two brothers) and one that is currently in a down-ward spiral, it is not an easy place to watch someone go.




SailingBum -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 10:37:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

This worked for us, for the time that we were together. However, I also didn't see myself in a really long-term or permanent relationship with this guy. So, I would say evaluate what you've got.  Are you willing to deal with this in some fashion for the rest of your life? Do you want to deal with it for now, in the short term, and can you set the firm boundary?  Do you have the strength to say, "You don't exist to me when you drink"? (or whatever your personal boundary is)

By the way, I really disagree with the statement that people have to hit rock bottom before they seek help. I know alot of people who sought help when they were nowhere near "rock bottom".

Cali



That is one way to handle it.  Way to much drama and headache for me.  I can't imagine some coke head knocking on my door at any point in my life.  My kids or me having to deal with it.  The bottom is different for everyone.

BadOne



CalifChick -> RE: Negative Pasts, Rocky todays and throwing the "White Flag".. (3/19/2008 10:43:28 AM)

Oh don't get me wrong, BigBad, the way I handled it that time wouldn't necessarily work with anyone else or at any other time.  The ONLY reason it worked was that he respected the boundary I set (there wasn't any drama), it wasn't happening often, and I didn't see the relationship as a forever thing.  When I said "if he did this and if he did that", I didn't mean he actually did them, I meant that I told him that's what would happen. I think he called me only one time when he was high, and I told him to call me after he slept off the crash.

Cali



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