RE: "The GooD Submissive"

RE: "The GooD Submissive" (Full Version)

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ownedgirlie -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 8:57:14 AM)
Actually, if you read the article on the website, complete with paragraphs and all, it seems to be listing those words as mere descriptors of what people over the years have decided what a "good submissive" is. The article goes on to challenge those descriptors.

daddyncherry -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 9:00:35 AM)
Maybe its just 'cause i've only had a few sips of coffee and am not toally awake, but i sort of get alot of that essay,and think there is something like that going on within my dynamic with my Daddy. i've mentioned before on the boards and on essays i've written that my Daddy is Mr.Myagi or Yoda Daddy...the things he teaches me and the way in which he does are very much like those two fictional characters.He is spiritual without being weird guruish about it and has alot of forward thinking, without being detail oriented (UGH-makes it hard for a detail orientedgirl to get things sometimes) So that being said....The whole letting go of the ego, something i made a thread about not long ago, seems to be something that i am trying to learn in his difficult way of teaching me........Letting go of expectations, need of verabal validation, living in the now and so on......i sort of get what the OP essay is getting at.......but again, could be lack of coffee on my part LOL............It seems that it says that the very need to be "good" and stand out in your submission somehow taints what it truly is and should be...there is a "pay off" for your good deeds, making it a bit more on the selfish, self serving end of things, and that only by letting go of the need to be so good, the need to stand out and be validated, are we actually able to be really submissive. (that's what i "hear" when reading it anyway) In my dynamic i get very little actual validation for things that i do, atleast on an overt level...at first this drove me to asolute distraction and confusion...on a bad day still, it can some times cause me to go down into the abyss.........but what he taught me is to let go of the out come of things, and just do them.....to find pleasure in the things i do, and make that the selfish part of it, but then to just let it go...... i don't hear things like good girl, or I am pleased with you or things of that nature often, and i struggle with it....i have to look at his actions and know they mean he is happy. Back to trying to caffeinate.

Kirren -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 9:03:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied quote: Kitten is VERY submissive... That's the sort of comment I will never understand. "very" to one person can mean "barely" to another Perhaps...tho I compare this with the fact that she does any and everything I could possibly think of with out My asking or even really considering it. It does seem like a broad or generalized statement...but then...I know her and you dont...so...lets leave it at that.

OTKkindaGirl -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 9:47:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cjan I find the article fascinating on many levels and am interested in peoples points of views regarding this topic ,who care to share them. Does this clinging to of ego supports or pride contribute to the act of or performance of submission by the individual themselves? i place my ego and my pride into the hands of the one that i serve. it takes strength and trust to relinquish those attributes into the hands of the one i serve. whether it is for humiliation or nurturing... they are his to do with as he pleases. Is not a submergence or relinquishment of the ego a necessary forestep to submission itself? i believe it is paramount. otherwise would it not be forced and unconsentual domination? can one really be giving of their complete self otherwise? To me each attempt to measure or set standards is a demonstration of failure to comprehend the base nature of submission itself. this could easily be taken out of context but imo that statement is referring to the generalization that we are all the same in our submission when in fact we are not. how can standards and measures say that one is more submissive in nature than anyone else without disrupting the fact that submission is submission regardless. The theory that any individual can go to school (or through 'training') 'learn' how to be a submissive and that the nature of what motivates, empowers and sustains a submissive can be somehow transmitted through lessons suggests a gross misunderstanding of what submission truly is. later mentioned again at the bottom, anyone can "act" the part if and when they want to and i think that is the point. Playing a part does not constitute a submissive nature. One is either submissive in nature or they are not. if this isn't true then why the hell do i see so many complaints about how many fakes are one this site alone? i have had my share of what i call "kinksters" they aren't being true about what they really are and have no clue about what submission is about. being kinky doesn't make you submissive or dominant....it's just being kinking, ugh the players out there! Emergence is not a process of 'becoming' but a process of spiritual birth. The submissive exists at the core of the being. They are. They exist. Truly. i am what i am. i do hate that it took me so long in life to discover that i am not the only one in the world that feels the way that i do. that i can be accepted for who and how and what i am without fear, finally and it has been very empowering to my own self acceptance. At some point the submissive begins tearing down the walls of their 'shell' or 'egg' to reveal or give birth to themselves in their natural form. all this stated in my first post to this thread. if we hadn't torn down the walls of conformity, i would not be who i am. i would still be a clueless doormat (as my mom use to call me). it has been a slow process and there are still things to learn but finally i am at peace with who i am. Many things can act to aid the submissive in this process of emergent birth through tools of understanding, new pathways of thought and the support of others who have emerged before them in words of encouragement and embracement. again, thank goodness for the internet and my mentors and those that i have met. i don't know how the rest of you discovered the lifestyle but here in part of the bible belt, and having led a sheltered life, there wasn't much else to turn to. Emergence is not the action of molding, training, modeling or shaping of some indistinct mass but instead the simple straight forward casting off of the ill-fitting expectations and assumptions of those surrounding them, ... again...self acceptance, tossing aside the robes of conformity and "acceptable" behavior in a vanilla world. nobody can teach you to let go of these things, you either do it or you don't. if you do, you are probably into to the lifestyle or know a lot about it and are open to it. Revealment of the core requires that the individual face and confront at every juncture those things which have produced and maintained the shell inside of which they have hidden from view. it is a scary thing to expose everything about oneself and to trust that the one that you are showing isn't going to run away screaming. To hide your core, is to lie by omission. it takes trust and openness, something that this lifestyle embraces... you just can't do that in the vanilla world, they label you and you buy into it if you aren't sure of yourself. These things are personal fears of the judgment of others, shame in the inner belief of the purity of the self, guilt in the inability to truthfully adhere to the desires and needs of others expectations of them and finally pain. when you can embrace the fact that you no longer have those fears and consequences of what others think, it can be very liberating. In that moment when they are free of all controls, needs, desires, wishes, wants and expectations their offering of service unto their personal belief is cleansed. To let go of all that you have ever been before coming into the lifestyle, to let go of fear, guilt, conformity, others expectations really does lighten up the spirit and opens the door. Diminishing the pain inflicted by society and the ignorant, enhances the power of effortless submission. At least it did for me. Invulnerable to the temptations and manipulations of the world and others around them. An offering of this purity of being, this force within is without any question the greatest gift that can ever be offered from one human being to another. It takes a very special person with a tremendous amount of strength to throw off all that kept them cocooned and to take flight. i agree that it is a gift because not everybody is entitled to submission and the one fortunate enough to receive such submission should value it more than anything else. After all, good submissives don't grow on trees! If this realm were merely about the offering of the body for the entertainment or sustenance of the illusion of submission then any actor could fill the role and play the game. Again..... players and kinksters... take note for it is you that is not entitled to submission in its purest form and i can now spot you guys fairly quick. But this isn't about the simple offering of the body, or the offering of easy things. Is it? i just dont understand how this is all coming across as bullshit.... i guess all those that have discounted it as such have never had to come into their own and never learn about themselves or their slaves. it must be wonderful to have always lived with self acceptance and never ever worrying about conforming to how those around you believe you should be. loved this post OP, thank you.

slaveluci -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 9:54:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Actually, if you read the article on the website, complete with paragraphs and all, it seems to be listing those words as mere descriptors of what people over the years have decided what a "good submissive" is. The article goes on to challenge those descriptors Agreed. I usually don't read alot of articles like this because frankly I'm usually not too concerned with what anyone else considers a "good" submissive/slave. As long as I'm clear on Master's expectations/desires/etc., I find lots of writings like these just serve no productive purpose. They may be great, wise ideas but they just don't apply to our life. But, I did read this whole article and it wasn't as horrid as many. Here's a few parts I actually thought weren't so bad: "The theory that any individual can go to school (or through 'training') 'learn' how to be a submissive and that the nature of what motivates, empowers and sustains a submissive can be somehow transmitted through lessons suggests a gross misunderstanding of what submission truly is." "A Dominant can train a monkey to bob and weave and run around for treats. If this realm were merely about the offering of the body for the entertainment or sustenance of the illusion of submission then any actor could fill the role and play the game. After all, treats are cheap. But this isn't about the simple offering of the body, or the offering of easy things. Is it?" This article wasn't so bad because, as you pointed out, the article does challenge the notion of what "good" is and why we feel compelled to use such descriptors.................luci

ownedgirlie -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 10:09:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci I usually don't read alot of articles like this because frankly I'm usually not too concerned with what anyone else considers a "good" submissive/slave. As long as I'm clear on Master's expectations/desires/etc., I find lots of writings like these just serve no productive purpose. They may be great, wise ideas but they just don't apply to our life. I feel the same as you. But if someone is going to post one and leave it open to opinions...well, I rarely miss an opportunity to share mine, haha. :)

SirJohnMandevill -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 10:46:56 AM)
Perhaps I'm just overusing my cerebral cortices, but I thought the article was profound, especially this paragraph: "I find many 'measures' of what constitutes or 'is' the demonstration of a 'good' submissive. To me each attempt to measure or set standards is a demonstration of failure to comprehend the base nature of submission itself. These attempts are flawed by the concept or idea that a relative measurement can corral or hold within it that which is the submissive and act of submission itself." I truly believe the author is correct. I can bring structure to my submissive's life and exert the leadership she needs and expects without a course of "training," per se. The standards she lives up to will be those that we develop as a D/s couple. It boils down to two simple statements. You can't make someone do something they don't want to do. And you can't keep someone from doing something they want to do. That's what the author was getting at, IMO. My .02 zlotys. Your milage may vary. Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink)

Kalista07 -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 10:52:15 AM)
Dang it!!!!!!!!! i must tell You, OP, how sadly disappointed i am....Here i thought You had created an entire thread about me...GRRRRR... Heh... insert one of those yellow smiley faces here Kali

DesFIP -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 11:04:16 AM)
I have no interest in being fertile, I'm 53 ffs. As far as the rest, hyperbole and sentiment. Nothing realistic, I'm good for him and that's all that matters to me.

SimplyMichael -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 12:13:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael What a load of overblown hyperbole. Great stuff for snagging women off the internet though, I mean who wouldn't want to be that! However, there isn't a practical suggestion anywhere in there on how to achieve any of that. Many things can act to aid the submissive in this process of emergent birth through tools of understanding, new pathways of thought and the support of others who have emerged before them in words of encouragement and embracement. Perhaps you just skimmed over this part? I didn't skim over anything. Yes, the writing is all nice and purty but there is no meat in it. Many things (doesn't mention what those things are )can act to aid the submissive in this process (what process, the whole process, the beginning, or?) of emergent birth (two nice words that mean the same thing and still don't tell us anything specific) through tools (again, not a single specific mention of the exact tool )of understanding(of understanding what exactly?), new pathways of thought (again, doesn't mention what exactly those pathways consist of nor the ones to abandon) and the support of others (which others, where do you find them, how do you sort the good others from the bad others) who have emerged before (emerged from what exactly and how did they do that?)* them in words of encouragement and embracement(*gee, she can't even list what sort of words and what the hell is an embracement anyway?). Lets use the tool analogy, here is how I read the passage. To make a beautiful wooden bowl, select an appropriate wood and carefully choose the grain direction in order to maximize the beauty. Mount properly in the machine and using the correct tool create a pleasing shape. After preparing the surface for the finish, apply one that will maximize the beauty. If you already know how to do it, what I wrote makes perfect sense, however, Steele is supposedly writing to someone who HASN"T done it and so what she is written is pretty but useless. To create a beautiful bowl, find a piece of hardwood such as walnut, maple, or mulberry and select a section where a single branch separates into two different branches, this section is called the crotch for obvious reasons. Look for a piece that is at least 8-10 inches in diameter. Using a typical tree trimming bow saw, cut out the section so that you have the top of the crotch where it divides into two and about 8-12 inches down from there. See the difference. It is easy to write about the concept, it requires actual knowledge and experience to write about how to actually do something. It also takes the ability to really understand not only how to do something but how to explain it to someone who hasn't done it before. In my opinion, she clearly lacks all of those skills. You can read the same sort of lofty stuff in chatrooms written by people who have never once had a real woman bent over their knee let alone actually facilitated the "emergence" of a submissive!

Justme696 -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 12:17:29 PM)
quote: The 'Good' Submissive Good - better - best - favorable - bountiful - fertile - handsome - attractive - suitable - fit - profitable - advantageous - pleasant - agreeable - salutary - wholesome - amusing - clever - considerable - ample - full - well-founded - cogent - real - actualized... why isn't "horny" in the list?

cjan -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 12:26:12 PM)
SimplyMichael: I take your point, sir ,and agree on some points, given your point of view. (We all have them, don't we )? On the otherhand, just as some people learn things differently (visually, auditorially, through motion, etc., some people are more comfortable using the "connect the dots " method, while others do better working outside the box and coloring outside the lines. I appreciate and respect everyones' point of view in this thread. That is why I posted the article in the first place... to learn what y'all think. No one size fits all.

robertolapiedra -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 12:27:41 PM)
Sufficient to understand why when the word is used no one quite knows exactly what is meant. What is a good submissive? Is it any or all of the things above, even when those things seem contradictory? Why do we feel the need to clarify or narrowly identify this special condition? [/quote] Hello cjan. A good submissive is usually an obedient one? A bad person can be very obedient just as a good person can be rebellious and disobedient. You can find a lots of people who like to submit or tell you what to do. For me a good submissive is a good person, and a bad one is a bad person. Subbing does not make you a saint nor domming make you a devil. RL.

rook42 -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 12:27:47 PM)
lol. Think they substituted fertile... Which is NOT necessarily a good trait :P I'm not the type to like surprises.

ownedgirlie -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 12:27:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael See the difference. It is easy to write about the concept, it requires actual knowledge and experience to write about how to actually do something. It also takes the ability to really understand not only how to do something but how to explain it to someone who hasn't done it before. I think since we are all unique individuals, all anyone can write about are concepts, when it comes to reaching what's in a person's psyche. Not only is she unqualified, but everyone on this message board is unqualified, to say specifically what each unique individual needs in order to reach his/her core. You are right in what you said, to reach someone's core requires actual knowledge, experience and understanding of the person whose core is being ventured into. And no article can give you that, by any author. Now, I don't know the author of this article, nor do I have any great intrinsic need to defend it, but I don't see anything greatly wrong with the concepts she wrote about. Also (and this isn't to you, Michael, but to everyone quoting that first list of traits and calling it bogus), the point of listing all those traits was to show that those are the things so often and ignorantly used to define a good submissive. Everyone dissing those things are actually proving Steel's point.

Justme696 -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 12:31:53 PM)
The good Dom Good - better - best - favorable - bountiful - fertile - handsome - attractive - suitable - fit - profitable - advantageous - pleasant - agreeable - salutary - wholesome - amusing - clever - considerable - ample - full - well-founded - cogent - real - actualized...Dominant

Sirsinini -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 12:38:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael quote: ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael What a load of overblown hyperbole. Great stuff for snagging women off the internet though, I mean who wouldn't want to be that! However, there isn't a practical suggestion anywhere in there on how to achieve any of that. Many things can act to aid the submissive in this process of emergent birth through tools of understanding, new pathways of thought and the support of others who have emerged before them in words of encouragement and embracement. Perhaps you just skimmed over this part? I didn't skim over anything. Yes, the writing is all nice and purty but there is no meat in it. Many things (doesn't mention what those things are )can act to aid the submissive in this process (what process, the whole process, the beginning, or?) of emergent birth (two nice words that mean the same thing and still don't tell us anything specific) through tools (again, not a single specific mention of the exact tool )of understanding(of understanding what exactly?), new pathways of thought (again, doesn't mention what exactly those pathways consist of nor the ones to abandon) and the support of others (which others, where do you find them, how do you sort the good others from the bad others) who have emerged before (emerged from what exactly and how did they do that?)* them in words of encouragement and embracement(*gee, she can't even list what sort of words and what the hell is an embracement anyway?). Lets use the tool analogy, here is how I read the passage. To make a beautiful wooden bowl, select an appropriate wood and carefully choose the grain direction in order to maximize the beauty. Mount properly in the machine and using the correct tool create a pleasing shape. After preparing the surface for the finish, apply one that will maximize the beauty. If you already know how to do it, what I wrote makes perfect sense, however, Steele is supposedly writing to someone who HASN"T done it and so what she is written is pretty but useless. To create a beautiful bowl, find a piece of hardwood such as walnut, maple, or mulberry and select a section where a single branch separates into two different branches, this section is called the crotch for obvious reasons. Look for a piece that is at least 8-10 inches in diameter. Using a typical tree trimming bow saw, cut out the section so that you have the top of the crotch where it divides into two and about 8-12 inches down from there. See the difference. It is easy to write about the concept, it requires actual knowledge and experience to write about how to actually do something. It also takes the ability to really understand not only how to do something but how to explain it to someone who hasn't done it before. In my opinion, she clearly lacks all of those skills. You can read the same sort of lofty stuff in chatrooms written by people who have never once had a real woman bent over their knee let alone actually facilitated the "emergence" of a submissive! "Emergence is not the action of molding, training, modeling or shaping of some indistinct mass but instead the simple straight forward casting off of the ill-fitting expectations and assumptions of those surrounding them, the removal of things which no longer work for the individual but have been outgrown and need to be discarded or removed." A woman DOES NOT ALWAYS emerge submissive by molding shaping recarving and reinventing her image..... I believe you have missed the best part of the article. "Revealment of the core requires that the individual face and confront at every juncture those things which have produced and maintained the shell inside of which they have hidden from view. These things are personal..."

Sirsinini -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 12:42:51 PM)
"Good" is an adjective when used in this article. I have never been taught/trained to be a "good" submissive, altho I have had BDSM tops try to teach me to be a "good" slut, "a good" masochist, "good" girl.... which is all relative ONLY to what their meaning of "good" meant. As an RN to say something is "good" ~~ the wound looks "good", the client is in a "good" mood ~~ is dependent upon factors before and after. The wound looks "good" because prior "the wound was dark blue with purulent nousious debride seeping from the 2cm diameter opening in the center." The client's mood is "good" because 2 days earlier "of voice of hyterical panic rose from a face that was red and swollen through tears stained cheeks." I believe the author of this article used the initiate adjectives to provide the readers a clue to the fact that "good" is definately meaningless. " .... the simple straight forward casting off of the ill-fitting expectations and assumptions of those surrounding them, the removal of things which no longer work for the individual but have been outgrown and need to be discarded or removed. Revealment of the core requires that the individual face and confront at every juncture those things which have produced and maintained the shell inside of which they have hidden from view. These things are personal fears of the judgment of others, shame in the inner belief of the purity of the self, guilt in the inability to truthfully adhere to the desires and needs of others expectations of them and finally pain." I can understand Kirren when she says "Kitten ... but shes had years of crap and training to teach her that she is wortless or that she has to stand firm to get some where." There is only one type of dominant for me; only one who can do the pruning, have the patience to see inside, peel the layers to the core, deal with the shame, judgements, fears, guilt and as Les pointed out .... "bring structure to ... submissive's life and exert the leadership she needs and expects without a course of "training," per se. The standards she lives up to will be those that we develop as a D/s couple." Sir's devoted property To the OP..thanks for bringing this discussion forward.

Sirsinini -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 12:46:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Justme696 The good Dom Good - better - best - favorable - bountiful - fertile - handsome - attractive - suitable - fit - profitable - advantageous - pleasant - agreeable - salutary - wholesome - amusing - clever - considerable - ample - full - well-founded - cogent - real - actualized...Dominant ""the point of listing all those traits was to show that those are the things so often and ignorantly used to define a good"".... dominant *smiles @ arrogant humor Sir's

stella41b -> RE: "The GooD Submissive" (3/22/2008 1:14:21 PM)
I'm not too sure which I find more interesting here, the article or the postings on this thread. While I don't subscribe to the theory that submissives are born, I'm inclined to accept that the need to be submissive to someone else comes from the soul and there is a spiritual need to be submissive. The article makes the very valid point of the process, the cleansing of the soul, the opening up, laying bare, laying vulnerable. It makes another valid point (to me) that submission comes from within, and cannot be taught. Then there's the: "A Dominant can train a monkey to bob and weave and run around for treats. If this realm were merely about the offering of the body for the entertainment or sustenance of the illusion of submission then any actor could fill the role and play the game. After all, treats are cheap. But this isn't about the simple offering of the body, or the offering of easy things. Is it?" The article expresses very similar views and philosophy to those found in Aristasian thinking and philosophy, views expressed by people such as Miss Martindale. Below is a link to the first part of her TV documentary 'A Weekend At Miss Martindale's' in which she expresses her views on 'The Pit' (the outside world, society in general), talking about the things mentioned in the article: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3hxVnKUrHU Moving away from BDSM for a moment, the article also says something similar to theories put forward by Dr Eric Berne who revised the Freudian concepts of the ego, supergo and id into the three ego states of Parent, Adult and Child to form Transactional Analysis. Analogies in my opinion can be found all over the place, in various occupations, the armed forces for example, acting, etc. It can also be found in philosophy, Isn't this sort of thinking and the views expressed common to many religions including Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism? Isn't Nirvana all about detachment from the world to achieve spiritual completion? Isn't it a major Christian principle to 'serve God'? Aren't there stories in the Bible making references to 'submission', 'chastisement', 'enslavement', 'chastity', 'denial' and so on? I myself can see the point of the article, that the act of submission has very much to do with spiritual cleansing. Are there any BDSM activities between Dominant and submissive which don't involve the control, chastisement, restriction or denial in some form, be it psychological, emotional, or physical, of the submissive? I'm curious as to why others would see the article in the OP as BS or rubbish. But that's just me.

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