RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (Full Version)

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EPGAH -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 10:36:36 AM)

quote:


China is developing a capitalist economy and as I pointed out to cyberdude, western capitalist countries poluted just as much as Russia and China during their industrialisation.

They could always beg, buy, borrow, or steal the technology to make cleaner industries from America...Instead, they seem to want to steal nuclear and rocketry secrets. I'll be the first to posit that nuclear weaponry as a priority CANNOT be considered "green" in any circumstance!

Secondarily, why must the US clean up its act, while everyone from Africa to China are free to INcrease their pollution?
Seems a tad unfair, don't you think?




RealityLicks -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 10:43:04 AM)

How refreshing: a right wing American who's a little hard of understanding.  Don't get many of those on here.  [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Is self determination too difficult a concept, general or specific? You see "collapse", I see opportunity. I'd argue that any collapse is a function of people who want and need a government nanny service. Simple enough?


Bear Stearns collapsed due to the pursuit of a flawed business model, one widely adopted throughout the industry.  Your economy is in recession, the dollar is a peso and I see your markets are sliding - again.  What a great "opportunity" that is - except to fill up on petrol.  Tell the people who've just lost their homes and pensions to rejoice because JP Morgan are about to make a killing.


quote:


Vietnam - a GREAT example. I'll join you in congratulating them on the repelling of the "mighty US".


A triumph of free speech, no doubt? 

quote:


I won't however join you in reveling to the subsequent interment and murder of thousands that occurred once the oppressing US left. I just can't get behind and hold up as a standard a regime that used mass murder to insure their power base, but that's just me.


There's this place called Iraq.  Can you find it on the map?


quote:


However, the point was how Vietnam functions today as your example of a working socialist State. A people working 16 hours a day at $1/day to manufacture goods shipped to and purchased by the US with the profits held by modern day feudal kings and "high ranking officials". I agree - a perfect example. You want to follow that model here?


"Here" being London you'd have a tough job.  We have minimum wage laws.  At least the people in Vietnam aren't vassals of a foreign power but anyway, your facts are wrong.  The World Bank named Vietnam as one of the fastest growing economies in the world and said it will become a middle-income nation by 2010.  

quote:


I'd love to know how you reconcile a "Libertarian" philosophy of no government bureaucracy with your attraction to Socialism which holds government bureaucracy as the 'ideal'? No wonder you have trouble sleeping.


Er... actually. I said I don't have trouble sleeping. 

Anyway, google libertarian socialism yourself - broaden your outlook.

quote:

  I however sleep content in the knowledge that I obtained what I have on my own initiative and similar opportunities exist for others to do the same. 

I have no sympathy for those waiting for an government entitlement, or who have lottery tickets as a cornerstone of their retirement plan.


I'm not so smugly self-satisfied as to hold myself up as a paragon of virtue but I can point to a few modest achievements of my own.  No-one spoon-fed me and I have not relied on any advantage imbued by birth - quite the contrary.  I've never bought a lottery ticket, prefering to gamble on football matches when the mood strikes.  However, at the last reception I attended at Portcullis House, I met someone from the lottery.  They do a lot of work in the Arts, you know.

In short, you've misunderstood my post, misjudged who I am and have no idea what I do.  If you want to critique my ideas, do so, just leave the guesswork about me out of it as your assumptions belie your ability for assimilation.





Mercnbeth -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 10:49:22 AM)

quote:

When so many scientists voice concern about the climate and so much evidence of the climate changing (man made or not), and so many countries showing concern for their environment and economies due to climate change, only the ignorant can suggest its a gimmick.

MC,
It was and is the perfect gimmick as you reference about Capitalism. It can't be proved, or disproved. Past similar occurrences are considered immaterial, and it has a religious following.

It's 'pet rock' science. If you buy into it as a scientist - you are rewarded with grant money. Capitalism!

Relativity to the OP? 'Good intent' philosophy in the face of contrary results is a major contributing factor to the referenced "collapse". Whether its global warming or bi-lingual education. The 'intent' was good, but the resulting product proved counter productive. Should there be a collapse it will be under the weight of entitlements put in place under the guise of 'good intent'.

Disagreement is "ignorance"? Contrary data discounted as part of that "ignorance"? All 'non-believers' should be called names and ridiculed at best. Ideally they should be isolated and/or punished for their failure to see the 'one true way'. Yes - that is necessary for Socialism to function.




meatcleaver -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 10:52:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Communism will never work. It will never progress past the dictatorship stage. The whole idea behind the Soviet Union, and practically every communist revolition, is that dictatorship is necessary to mobilize the country and the economy and then to forfeit the dictatorship to the people. THAT'S THE PROBLEM! Right there. Dictatorships NEVER willingly step down. Once they gain power they only tend to find excuses to keep power.

Gorbachev recognized this in the 1980s. He knew the Soviet Union cannot ever succeed. So he tried to move the country towards democratic reform. He pushed it a little too far than he wanted to and ended up collapsing the system. But he knew the status quo was not going to work.


Cyberdude, get off the communism is evil wheel, the cold war ended some time ago and no one is talking about communism being an alternative to capitalism. What people are talking about is a further modification to capitalism or some form of hybrid like similar to the socialist/capitalist hybrid that has been so successful in western Europe since WWII. You know, the model that gives every citizen medical cover, affordable and efficient public transport and quality education that has enabled record social mobility while encouraging innovation and entrepreneurs.




Mercnbeth -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 11:14:02 AM)

quote:

How refreshing: a right wing American who's a little hard of understanding. 
Cool - I'm accused of being "right wing". It will offset the other times, when I get the 'left wing' label on other occasions. Why is it fundamental to your argument to label and call names? Is your position that weak?
quote:

Tell the people who've just lost their homes and pensions to rejoice because JP Morgan are about to make a killing.
They all made a choice, the investors, the workers and the pensioniers. What would you suggest-removal of that choice, under your benevolent dictatorship? They shouldn't be rejoicing, they were part of a failure, but they do have opportunities.
quote:

There's this place called Iraq.  Can you find it on the map?
Sure - however how is that relevant to your point in contrast with Vietnam? Or do you surrender holding Vietnam as an "ideal" and have no other?
quote:

Here" being London you'd have a tough job.  We have minimum wage laws.  At least the people in Vietnam aren't vassals of a foreign power but anyway, your facts are wrong. 
If they were, why not point them out?

You suggested Vietnam as a ideal model. Then when the components of that model are offered, you back away from them. Of course the minimum wage would have to disappear; except Socialism doesn't work that way. If you point to a example of success at least have the consideration of applying your ideal of success into your own environment. The location,whether the US or the UK wasn't your point was is? Why not use the model that you hold in high esteem?

Is the fact that they aren't "vassals" your important point? It would seem they are at least financial "vassals". Without a Capitalist market, there would be no funds to support the "vassals" living under Vietnamese Socialism. Isn't it amazing that your World Bank source points to the Capitalist trading of Vietnam as being key to their positive projections?

quote:

I'm not so smugly self-satisfied as to hold myself up as a paragon of virtue but I can point to a few modest achievements of my own.
Good for you and congratulations! That's not a small achievement considering the tax burden you have to bear in the UK.

quote:

In short, you've misunderstood my post, misjudged who I am and have no idea what I do. 
I couldn't have misjudged you because I didn't judge. I didn't try, and didn't know that you were doing so with me. I only responded to the subject of your points. My apologies if you perceived anything else but disagreement.




popeye1250 -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 11:32:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I am not sure what to think of this blog post, thought it could be an interesting conversation starter...

Saturday, March 22, 2008

"Why the US is collapsing"


" Hello, visitors from Digg, Reddit, StumbleUpon, and Slashdot. Summary in one paragraph: This is the leader of the Swedish Pirate Party explaining how the US went bankrupt in 1971, and has been covering it up through an accelerating whack-a-mole borrowing frenzy that is bursting right now. It has been paying rapidly growing VISA bills using MasterCard and vice versa for 37 years. The creditors are catching up, and the US is about to go extinct as a superpower. Become irrelevant. " http://falkvinge.com/2008/03/why-us-is-collapsing.html

(format edit)


"Extinct as a super power?"
Where's the downside to that?
That's mostly what's gotten us into the mess we're in now.
Interventions into foreign countries, global economy, ever increasing amounts of foreign aid, we simply cannot afford that kind of crap anymore.
This could be a very good thing for the country, declare bankruptcy, get a fresh start and start worrying about the U.S. only for a change.




RealityLicks -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 11:34:17 AM)

Mercnbeth -

In truth, globalisation has made completely socialist states virtually impossible.  But America ignores the advances in social policy pioneered in Europe at it's own peril.  You asked for an example of a socialist country and having lost a war to one it seemed apposite.  And workers in Vietnam are doing better than many assume, introducing elements of the market, as does China, doesn't detract from that or make them capitalists. Having fought off two superpowers, they can call themselves what they like.

You set yourself up as a champion of capitalism, not me.  However, a good example of socialism at work in my own country is the National Health System.  Imperfect, no doubt but incredibly significant.

I must take issue with your comment on the pensioners, though.  They have no control over the choices of greedy hedge fund managers - they simply get left destitute when it all goes wrong.  Faced with starvation in Detroit and starvation in Ho Chi Minh City, how're you going to choose?

PS - So you're a libertarian socialist, too?  [:D]




meatcleaver -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 11:43:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Tell the people who've just lost their homes and pensions to rejoice because JP Morgan are about to make a killing.


They all made a choice, the investors, the workers and the pensioniers. What would you suggest-removal of that choice, under your benevolent dictatorship? They shouldn't be rejoicing, they were part of a failure, but they do have opportunities.
disagreement.


Whatever the economic system, one is forced to make choices within that system so the idea of free choice in a capitalist system is no more real than a free choice within a socialist system.




subfever -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 11:54:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I am not sure what to think of this blog post, thought it could be an interesting conversation starter...

Saturday, March 22, 2008

"Why the US is collapsing"


" Hello, visitors from Digg, Reddit, StumbleUpon, and Slashdot. Summary in one paragraph: This is the leader of the Swedish Pirate Party explaining how the US went bankrupt in 1971, and has been covering it up through an accelerating whack-a-mole borrowing frenzy that is bursting right now. It has been paying rapidly growing VISA bills using MasterCard and vice versa for 37 years. The creditors are catching up, and the US is about to go extinct as a superpower. Become irrelevant. " http://falkvinge.com/2008/03/why-us-is-collapsing.html

(format edit)


"Extinct as a super power?"
Where's the downside to that?
That's mostly what's gotten us into the mess we're in now.
Interventions into foreign countries, global economy, ever increasing amounts of foreign aid, we simply cannot afford that kind of crap anymore.
This could be a very good thing for the country, declare bankruptcy, get a fresh start and start worrying about the U.S. only for a change.


Um... one of the main points of the OP's article is that the US has been bankrupt since August 15th, 1971, when Nixon broke from the Bretton-Woods Agreement.




popeye1250 -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 12:24:41 PM)

Well  I guess the article is wrong then.
You have to declare bankruptcy.
The U.S. had plenty of money in the 70's, 80's and 90's.
We actually had a *surplus* under Clinton.




EPGAH -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 12:40:22 PM)

Yay! When does the US get to start defaulting on loans? After all, nations from Argentina to UK have had a turn!




Vendaval -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 12:49:14 PM)

Pfffttt! [X(]

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
(Desperately trying to stay on topic, Vendaval [:)].)




kittinSol -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 12:50:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Pfffttt! [X(]

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
(Desperately trying to stay on topic, Vendaval [:)].)



I know [:(] .




Vendaval -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 1:00:19 PM)

I use that same example frequently, LaT. 
The obvious similarities are terribly obvious.  [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Didn't Rome fall because their infrastructure crumbled? They were so busy running about trying to conquer the world they forgot to take care of their own people.




subfever -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 2:50:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Well  I guess the article is wrong then.
You have to declare bankruptcy.
The U.S. had plenty of money in the 70's, 80's and 90's.
We actually had a *surplus* under Clinton.


LOL... Yeah, I can see it now. President Bush looking into the camera and explaining how the banks monetize your debt and admitting to the millions of Americans watching that the US is bankrupt, and has been for decades. And the millions of viewers eyes all pop out, and their hair stands out straight as if they all stuck their fingers in electrical outlets... just like the old cartoons... followed by widespread panic, a 99% drop in the stock markets, widespread food and gas hoarding, and martial law.  




farglebargle -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 2:53:31 PM)

"followed by widespread panic, "

Good band... They were our NYE2K entertainment.




SugarMyChurro -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 3:07:16 PM)

Did no one else find this page interesting?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html




Real_Trouble -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 4:01:21 PM)

This article is long enough that I'm not going to be able to comment on all of the factual and logical inconsistencies without having to write a treatise that would span many ePages, so I'll make a few key points:

- Leaving the gold standard was necessary; Bernanke's writings on the Great Depression make a pretty strong case that lacking a truly flexible monetary supply which is not arbitrarily pegged to a specific commodity will lead to serious economic pain.  Had the US not been on a gold standard and had not restricted the money supply, it is quite possible the Great Depression might have been more like the severe but not crippling recession.  There's no good reason for a gold standard - pulling commodities out of a market to just let them sit doing nothing makes little sense in the long run.  It's a totally arbitrary device that leads to trouble.  This is not to say printing unlimited money is good (it's not), but that constraining it with such a device has major unintended consequences...

- I agree that the current US trade deficit is unsustainable, but if that unwinds suddenly, it is going to tank most other countries!  A trade deficit means we are buying quite a bit of their stuff; we will stop.  This means that their economies have less of a market to sell to, as the demand drops, which tanks prices and hurts wages.  The US deficit is subsidizing much of the rest of the world, not the other way around.  What the author fails to understand is that a large US economic crisis will lead to a much larger and more painful world economic crisis.

- His commentary on trade negotiations is completely insane; essentially, he seems to be arguing that intellectual property laws are a terrible thing that was forced down the throat of the rest of the world!  While I agree they have some negatives to them, taking even a very basic look at research spending and development efforts by companies prior to intellectual property protection and post intellectual property protection paints a pretty clear picture; if your work is not protected, you aren't very inclined to do it, or at least, spend much on it.  This makes perfect sense, as it's a classic case of incentives.  Why would I spend $5 billion dollars trying to develop a cure for cancer if I get paid nothing for doing so, from a corporate standpoint?  While we bitch about drug prices and software costs, without IP laws, we probably wouldn't complain about them at all... because we wouldn't have them.  A basic look at research spending and the speed of progress makes that rather clear.

- The commentary on the money supply being tied directly to household borrowing is also patently moronic - parts of it are, but that's like saying my car is wholly composed of its engine.  This is simply false; the fact that the author is ignorant of other lending markets doesn't mean they don't exist, nor does it mean that we can just borrow ad naseum and expand the monetary supply ad naseum.  It just means he is ignorant.  Fractional reserve banking is not a great evil - people try to game any economic system, and what really matters is degree of incentives to do so versus penalties for not doing so.

This whole article, to someone with a serious finance and mathematics background, is seriously structurally unsound.  If what he's arguing is true, the current EU system should have tanked completely by now, the Scandinavians and Japanese would not have had the huge banking crises that they did in the past few decades because he's lauding their flaws as strengths, the Asian system would have been fine in the late 1990s, and the Russians never would have defaulted on their debt.  More so, he doesn't discuss the systemic instability a run on any major currency would create (as he says, Russia is tiny compared to the US in terms of economy in the 90s, yet the Russian default caused major issues alone for everyone), nor does he bother to back up his completely asinine claims about the US somehow exploding and fracturing like Russia (yes, because just like the Russians, we are clearly a confederation of differing ethnic groups with differing pasts that was awkwardly welded together as one nation).  There's just so much here that is flat out wrong I don't even know where to start to formally refute it.

Insane.

Now, if you want to argue against major deficit spending, please do!  I argue against that myself.  But please, argue against it with a logically sound and sane argument!  This article is like decrying murder because it leads to global warming or something equally bizarre.  However, the US is not about to collapse (or, if we do, everyone else is coming with us - see the commentary on the trade deficit), though we may bleed for a bit as a result of our largesse.

A little pain can instill some discipline, though.

I won't step into the capitalism debate other than to echo Winston Churchill and say that capitalism is the worst system there is, other than all the others.




luckydog1 -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 4:48:30 PM)

"This article is like decrying murder because it leads to global warming or something equally bizarre."

Rotting bodies release methane, which is a stronger greenhouse gas than CO2.....




Politesub53 -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 5:30:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Yay! When does the US get to start defaulting on loans? After all, nations from Argentina to UK have had a turn!


What loan did the UK default on ?




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