RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (Full Version)

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SugarMyChurro -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 8:15:54 PM)

I think the article on the whole raises some intriguing questions. It's certainly as sound as most of the economic bullshit that gets tossed around.

IP law is nonsense. Copyrights and Patents have simply run amok and it's going to end. It is de facto over, visit China - look at the internet. It was an embarrassing part of our legal system from the first.

What are the unintended consequences of a perfectly stable gold-based monetary system? That I'd like to hear, or better yet - proved.

I think some people are missing the big point here: if the dollar is no longer the *ONLY* monetary system the world is trading in, then at best its going to become more and more marginalized over time. Maybe there would be nothing wrong with that in itself - except that the Euro is ascendant! So long term, we could really be screwed. And all the mercenaries it will take to protect our financial interests cannot be bought with dollars of decreasing value. Ain't gonna happen. And I sure as hell will not fight to protect the interests of the corporate elite.

We may now be living in a world that has decided the U.S. simply doesn't matter as much as it used to. And that opinion will choke us to death.

No one else is going to drink the kool-aid with us because they are too busy buying Euros and protecting themselves against our foreseeable collapse.




Sequence -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 8:59:19 PM)

nm




Real_Trouble -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 9:45:26 PM)

quote:

IP law is nonsense. Copyrights and Patents have simply run amok and it's going to end. It is de facto over, visit China - look at the internet. It was an embarrassing part of our legal system from the first.


I think there is a major difference between having IP laws and not having IP laws, and if we end up in a world without them, we've got a huge fucking problem on our hands.  Part of the issue is that high end research science and progress costs so much money at this point that, without being assured of some kind of yield for pursuing it, it's a stupid industry.  I mean, I can throw money off a bridge, too, if I just want to totally freaking waste it.

Lacking any kind of IP laws (this is not to say the ones we have are ideal, just that not having them at all is worse) is going to depress medical and technological research and innovation badly.  Compare the rates of research and spending from the era directly before IP laws were fully ensconced to what came after and you will see what I'm talking about.

Now, that is personal opinion, but I think if we don't protect the value of idea innovation, we hurt the chances of it happening.

quote:

What are the unintended consequences of a perfectly stable gold-based monetary system? That I'd like to hear, or better yet - proved.


This one is easy.  Bernanke wrote quite a bit about the fiscal policy of the US and the Great Depression.  I don't have the links handy, but I'm sure a bit of research could turn them up.  The general summary is that when you most need the ability to expand your money supply (such as to prevent the bank failures that were rampant during the Great Depression to prevent further stress on the system, correlated bank failures, freezing of assets for individuals leading to economic devastation or durress, and the ability to consolidate or sell off distressed banks - which you cannot do when they go bankrupt and their assets are frozen) you will not have it!  The country is having economic problems, the ability to expand the monetary reserve is not present, and it means that you invariably contract your money supply precisely at the time when contracting your money supply will do serious damage to your economy.

Bernanke's point, and we can see what he was talking about with the recent implosion of Bear Stearns, is that if you allow major banks to fail and do not provide some form of monetary expansion or liquidity in order to protect their creditors  and depositors (ie - fuck the shareholders, they gambled and lost, but people who had deposited THIER money with Bear's commercial banking division shouldn't either lose it all or have it tied up for years in bankruptcy court because someone else fucked up, nor should their short term creditors get burned or they won't lend to others who need it), you create more problems than you had to begin with.

If Bear went down naked, for example, and a large body of hedge funds and asset management funds suddenly had all of their assets frozen, and thus also went bankrupt, and... (you can see where this chain goes, and it's precisely what happened with the bank failures in the Great Depression).  All bad.

Like I said, I'm not for unlimited expansionist monetary policies; I think we've done ourselves some harm with that and should have taken our medicine in 2001 during the dot com burst rather than trying to loan our way out of it then.  So don't take this as me being for unlimited printing of money; I'm not.  But currently, when you have things like bank failures, you don't want to have your hands tied by an arbitrary standard and end up fiddling while Rome burns, so to speak.

quote:

I think some people are missing the big point here: if the dollar is no longer the *ONLY* monetary system the world is trading in, then at best its going to become more and more marginalized over time. Maybe there would be nothing wrong with that in itself - except that the Euro is ascendant! So long term, we could really be screwed. And all the mercenaries it will take to protect our financial interests cannot be bought with dollars of decreasing value. Ain't gonna happen. And I sure as hell will not fight to protect the interests of the corporate elite.


The dollar never has been the only one.  There is a somewhat naive view among Americans that this is the case, but America is hardly the only world banking center.  Try talking to a London banker and telling him the dollar is the world currency, and good luck not getting punched in the fucking mouth.  Point is, currencies wax and wane, and the Euro is justifiably strong right now.

But economic cycles come and go.  Everyone is too hyped up at the top, and too depressed at the bottom.  The dollar not being the de-facto only standard is not going to tank the entire US and demolish our nation; it would be naive to think that.  Germany has withstood far worse, in fact (though they got the Nazis out of the bargain at one point).

A de-leveraging of US debt and decline in the value of the dollar is not all bad, either.  We are overindebted, and the sooner that changes, the better.  You don't want to hamstring your economy for a decade and a half (and still running) like Japan has.  Secondly, a lower dollar means a smaller trade deficit (or even a trade surplus), because that turns around the import / export relationship.

quote:


We may now be living in a world that has decided the U.S. simply doesn't matter as much as it used to. And that opinion will choke us to death.

No one else is going to drink the kool-aid with us because they are too busy buying Euros and protecting themselves against our foreseeable collapse.


Or we can just adjust, get our house in order, and hopefully go back to another big boom as a result of that.  I do agree that the US is not the only major player now, and that many other countries are catching up, but I don't believe that is necessarily a bad thing, either.  It's only a bad thing if you handle it by being stupid, but that can be said of many, many things...




awmslave -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 10:03:32 PM)

I believe ideas rule the world (not money). Well-known author Lawrence Velvel writes: “….qualities such as honesty, competence, and compassion have continuously declined since about 1960 and how selfishness has increased dramatically…  You can see in our leadership that dishonesty is rampant, fake celebrityhood is worshipped, and competence and modesty take back seats. What has emerged is extensive human and societal wreckage, and the rise of a selfish class…”




SugarMyChurro -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 10:17:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble
I mean, I can throw money off a bridge, too, if I just want to totally freaking waste it.


This assumes privately funded research is the only viable option. It isn't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble
This one is easy.


This assumes that both capitalism and the existence of private banks are good things. The former might be good thing with heavy socialist controls. The latter is almost certainly a bad thing. It has always been a bad thing. All that ever happens is that wealth is transferred from the have-nots to the haves. Idiocy.

Sigh...







Real_Trouble -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/25/2008 11:38:50 PM)

quote:


This assumes privately funded research is the only viable option. It isn't.


When has publicly funded anything been more efficient than private funding?  One thing I am patently sure of is that however much the private market sucks (and, let me assure you, there are times when it does), the government can suck far, far harder and with a far greater degree of consistency.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Hayek and people like the economics department at GMU (of "Markets fail, let's use markets!" fame).  I'm not going to argue for the sanctity of some free market that solves all problems or some insane shit like that.  However, it's the best of the inefficient and bad solutions we have; not perfect, but most other things suck a lot more.  IP laws work better than not having them, but they aren't perfect.

Again, look at the statistics for situations with IP law and situations without.  China is not some great innovator, they steal our stuff because we innovate and they produce it cheaply.  If the US stopped all research and science tomorrow, China would be stuck in park.  We're driving, along with Western Europe, the tech curve in the world precisely because we heavily reward research by the private sector.

However, to your second point:

quote:


This assumes that both capitalism and the existence of private banks are good things. The former might be good thing with heavy socialist controls. The latter is almost certainly a bad thing. It has always been a bad thing. All that ever happens is that wealth is transferred from the have-nots to the haves. Idiocy.

Sigh...


Find me a system that consistently produces a higher standard of living on average than capitalism, and I'll be glad to advocate adopting it immediately.  Socialism has consistently failed, and failed spectacularly in some cases, while capitalism does produce inequality... however the reality is that I'd rather be inequally rich and innovative than equally poor and downtrodden.

It's not perfect, and I do agree that some level of social safety net is not a bad thing (some of the western european countries have some good ideas we should adopt), but I'm never going to be for out and out socialism.  Central planning is inefficient and does not work; that's been proven time and time again.  There's no magic formula governments can use to regulate markets and economies.

Likewise, with the banking system, how is it that private banks are bad things when compared to public banks?  Again, they are hardly perfect, but if you compare nations with public versus private banks, the latter win out in terms of net positive almost every time.

Virtually all nations with nationalized and public banks end up with very inefficient banking systems, and it takes a toll on the economy.  That very kind of central control is precisely what produced the banking crises in the Scandinavian countries and Japan (where it has now led to a decade and a half of economic stagnation).  That's why French banks consistently under-perform, and why SocGen tanked the fucking market unwinding Kerviel's trades like a bunch of goddamn amateurs.  Goldman Sachs can somehow sell 5% of BP in one day without making waves (and there's a raft of other investment banks in the US who could pull off a similar feat, along with a few commercial ones, and a few Swiss and German ones), but SocGen can't unwind a couple of bad bets by a trader without tipping their hand so badly it costs them a few billion euros in one day, and you want me to buy into the efficiency and functionality of the second group?  Especially when all of the state-protected banks are still having to write off subprime exposure because they made the same dumb mistakes as everyone else?

I'll pass.  They are protected artificially from competition, regulated so heavily they become inefficient and rely on government action, and fail at the basic functions of a bank.  The cost to an economy is significant in inefficiency.  It's just a silent and cruel killer like inflation, rather than a visible one like Enron going down.

No, markets, capitalism, and private ownership are not perfect solutions.  But they are the best ones we have.

I don't know how I got off on this tangent, though... I'll stop cluttering the thread and we can debate economics another time.




Griswold -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/26/2008 4:00:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirRober

Dunno but I have ideas to help fix the budget.

1. conditional welfare.
   a. work 6 years for 6 mos of benfits.
   b. only get help for up to 4 dependents period. Once any or all of the orignal 4 leave house you don't get more money.
   c. random drug screening to pick up check.

2. Pay the senators and house of rep. the same as the pres. no more.

3. State and federal. no visa, no id {equals} no money, no help

4. SSI only paid to those  who have worked(20+ years) and legitimate disablity's 


Suuuuuuure.....that'll shape up those Congressmen....they'll only get $600,000.00 a year.




philosophy -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/26/2008 9:46:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I use that same example frequently, LaT. 
The obvious similarities are terribly obvious.  [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Didn't Rome fall because their infrastructure crumbled? They were so busy running about trying to conquer the world they forgot to take care of their own people.



...problem is, trying to do something about the infrastructure in the US will run into an ideological brick wall, namely the spectre of socialism. Too many consider acting for the social welfare to be socialism. Think of health care...think of affordable housing......think of equal opportunity in education. The benefits of all three are obvious to any thinking person, but because they all require some centralised organisation the ideologues will go to any lengths to defeat them.
La Thatch once said 'there is no such thing as society'. The current US ideological climate seems to suggest that the US is trying its best to prove that axiom......with all the side effects that it entails.




TracyTaken -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/26/2008 10:18:14 AM)

quote:

The creditors are catching up, and the US is about to go extinct as a superpower. Become irrelevant.


Since the US military is still the war machine of the world and the US itself is still the bread basket of the world, I think "irrelevant" is unlikely.  I think the status is likely to change though.




meatcleaver -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/26/2008 10:21:39 AM)

By using tax as a propaganda weapon, even though bearly any colonists paid a cent tax, the founding fathers set the belief in Americans that paying tax is bad.

However, by paying tax I get more for my money in regards to quality infrastructure and medical care and services than the average American.

Hmm but I don't get a military that is capable of going to the other side of the world on an imperial jolly.




NeedToUseYou -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/26/2008 12:11:17 PM)

The problem isn't caused by the mortgage fallout that is a symptom, the problem is the over leveraged "everything". This is a super simple easy to fix for  future occurences, double the percentage of reserve the bankers must hold on deposits. It won't happen, because it would mean they could leverage less money during the boom cycles. But inversely it would mean lost deposits would impact them less during busts.

We wouldn't be discussing this right now if the market wasn't over leveraged. Thus you have to cut back there ability to create the overheated booms that lead to busts, and you do that by making the money less expandable, and contractable at the banking level. You do that, and it smooths it out a bit, not so high highs, not so low lows. It doesn't eliminate the possiblity of failures but it makes them less dramatic, thus reducing the perceived need of the Federal Reserve to back all large bank failures with our money. Make no doubt they will not let a Bank of America fail, or any that size, when a system is built the way it is, then you have two options, socialize it, or make the system not as suseptible to bank failure, increasing reserve requirements does that, it also reduces the need for Fed involvement, on both the upswing and downswing..
Of course you wouldn't do that now, but you would do it once it stablizes and starts to rebound to prevent the next overinflated boom cycle.






meatcleaver -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/26/2008 12:56:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken

quote:

The creditors are catching up, and the US is about to go extinct as a superpower. Become irrelevant.


Since the US military is still the war machine of the world and the US itself is still the bread basket of the world, I think "irrelevant" is unlikely.  I think the status is likely to change though.



To quote Kipling

Cities and Thrones and Powers,
Stand in Time's eye,
Almost as long as flowers,
Which daily die:

Or as King Louie lamented in Jungle Book
 
Now I'm the king of the swingers
Oh, the jungle VIP
I've reached the top and had to stop
And that's what botherin' me




SirRober -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/26/2008 5:31:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirRober

Dunno but I have ideas to help fix the budget.

1. conditional welfare.
  a. work 6 years for 6 mos of benfits.
  b. only get help for up to 4 dependents period. Once any or all of the orignal 4 leave house you don't get more money.
  c. random drug screening to pick up check.

2. Pay the senators and house of rep. the same as the pres. no more.

3. State and federal. no visa, no id {equals} no money, no help

4. SSI only paid to those  who have worked(20+ years) and legitimate disablity's 


Suuuuuuure.....that'll shape up those Congressmen....they'll only get $600,000.00 a year.




I stand corrected sentaors get 145k

but the pres gets 450k




philosophy -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/26/2008 5:34:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirRober

Dunno but I have ideas to help fix the budget.

1. conditional welfare.
  a. work 6 years for 6 mos of benfits.
  b. only get help for up to 4 dependents period. Once any or all of the orignal 4 leave house you don't get more money.
  c. random drug screening to pick up check.

2. Pay the senators and house of rep. the same as the pres. no more.

3. State and federal. no visa, no id {equals} no money, no help

4. SSI only paid to those  who have worked(20+ years) and legitimate disablity's 


.......and how much money would that save, as opposed to say removing corporate hand outs? Yanno, it seems to me that it shouldn't always be the poor who pay for rich peoples mistakes.......




Leatherist -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/26/2008 5:37:41 PM)

I have some solutions too. Corruption in public office is an automatic death penalty.

Earmarks cannot be attached to other bills-they all have to be voted on seperately.

Unfunded mandates are illegal.

Lobbying is also illegal.

Campaign contributions from companies and individuals cannot exceed 5,000 dollars.

Company officials and factors that are found guilty of trying to bribe public officials will face life in prison-at hard labor.

We are not allowed to spend more than the accounting office says it has in the bank, in any fiscal year.

I can think of more, but those would be a good start.







Griswold -> RE: "Why the US is collapsing" (3/26/2008 6:26:52 PM)


quote:



I stand corrected sentaors get 145k

but the pres gets 450k


(My error)




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