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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/1/2005 11:11:51 PM

rankandefile

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

... Since we are sharing the definition of terrorist, I'll offer my thoughts. A Terrorist is someone who wages war on an innocent civilian population removed and uninvited by the indigenous population having a stated goal of total destruction and elimination of opposing philosophical thought.

Once again, what about the United States with Nicaragua?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/1/2005 11:37:49 PM

rankandefile

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ORIGINAL: pantera

I found this article.....here's the link-

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/16/122915.shtml

Every bit of the "evidence" is speculation. Let's look at a few.

Chemical Agent Purchase Orders (Dec. 2001) - What chemicals, and from whom?

Formulas and information about Iraq's Chemical Weapons Agents - And...?

Locations of Weapons/Ammunition Storage (with map) - Wow. A military has weapons, and keeps track of where they are. Stunning.

Denial and Deception of WMD and Killing of POWs. - Deception? Is that like misleading, or did we simply misfollow him? We seem to have a tendency to do that. Killing of POWs? The United States ahs done this, as well.

Ricin research and improvement. - The United States also researches a wide array of chemicals and weapons.

Chemical Gear for Fedayeen Saddam - Gear? Could be gas masks.

Memo from the [Iraqi Intelligence Service] to Hide Information from a U.N. Inspection team (1997) - What information? Be more specific, please.

Iraq Ministry of Defense Calls for Investigation into why documents related to WMD were found by UN inspection team - Related to? This post is related to WMDs... We need more info.

Correspondence between various Iraq organizations giving instructions to hide chemicals and equipment - Need details. organizations, or government? Even if this one is worst case scenario, can you honestly fault them for NOT being completely stupid?

Correspondence from [Iraqi Intelligence Service] to [the Military Industrial Commission] regarding information gathered by foreign intelligence satellites on WMD (Dec. 2002) - Ok. What does the correspondence say?

Cleaning chemical suits and how to hide chemicals - Was this mis-bulleted, but part of the above?

[Iraqi Intelligence Service] plan of what to do during UNSCOM inspections (1996) - What were the plans? Make extra tea?

Secret Meeting with Taliban Group Member and Iraqi Government (Nov. 2000) - The article quotes Stephen Hayes "What was discussed at the 'Secret Meeting with Taliban Group Member and Iraqi Government' in November 2000? It could be something innocuous. Maybe not. But it would be nice to know more." I could not agree more.

Document from Uday Hussein regarding Taliban activity - Again, the article quotes Hayes himself as stating "that the 'Document from Uday Hussein regarding Taliban activity' was critical of one or another Taliban policies. But it's equally possible, given Uday's known role as a go-between for the Iraqi regime and al Qaeda, that something more nefarious was afoot." YES! So let's uncover these documents.

Possible al Qaeda Terror Members in Iraq - There are "possible" al Qaeda terror members everywhere, including the United States. That doesn't mean we support them. I think it is very worthwhile to continue with Hayes' logic on this one, though. There are "possible" al Qaeda terror members in the United States, so it is "possible" the United States supports them.

Iraqi Effort to Cooperate with Saudi Opposition Groups and Individuals - And? Was the "effort" successful? What is meant by cooperation?

Iraqi Intel report on Kurdish Activities: Mention of Kurdish Report on al Qaeda - reference to al Qaeda presence in Salman Pak - Wow. A report with a mention of a reference. Really digging now, aren't we?

[Iraqi Intelligence Service] report on Taliban-Iraq Connections Claims - And the report says... what?

Money Transfers from Iraq to Afghanistan - There have been money transfers from the United States to Iraq. Iraq to the United States. From a large number of nations to a large number of other nations. Please elaborate.

Is THIS your proof of WMD? Is THIS what you've been talking about since the beginning of this thread?

"Hayes cautions that it's hard to know for certain until the full text is available."

Please. Do take caution.

Until we know what the documents contain, we cannot assume they mean much of anything. Surely, the United States has more than a few documents with titles that would sound just as bad. It's all about context. The only reason one would think the mere titles of these documents are evidence is because one wants to assume guilt without full knowledge of the document's content.

The enlightenment really is dead, isn't it?

< Message edited by rankandefile -- 12/1/2005 11:39:54 PM >

(in reply to pantera)

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/6/2005 2:01:59 AM

ChallengeMe

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Saddam was like Tito. A violent dictator who managed to keep two genocidally opposed people from starting a civil war. When Tito died and left no immediate successor, yugoslavia became a horrible bloodbath of genicide and civil war.

Was tito an evil man? yes. did his brutal reign over yugoslavia help the country? yes! they even made a car and sold it over here!

Saddam was so horrid BECAUSE HE HAD TO BE IN ORDER TO KEEP THE SHI'ITES FROM KILLING OFF ALL THE SUNNIS AND THE KURDS TO BOOT. lOOK AT IRAN. If he'd been kid-gloves with everyone, he would have gotten removed rom power and iraq would resemble iran...which is a nasty theocracy. This is why Saddam was helped by America to stay in power. Sunnis are, in general, less violent, less religious-wacko and less antiamerican than shi'ites....hell, isn't there a pic of rumsfeld shaking saddam's hand?

African dictators who are equally cruel often result from the same problem: tribes that want to murder each other. Rwanda is one such example.

It may have been better to leave saddam in power instead of invading iraq in the whole kuwait debacle. Woulda cost less, and gotten us lots more oil.

Kuwait, in fact, was not an innocent victim. Hidden from the American people by the media is the underlying cause for gulf war 1. Kuwait was stealing iraqi oil. they were "slant drilling" which is about the same as if mexico drilled under texas and pumped oil from under a texan oilfield.

You think the US wouldn't resort to some military tactic if mexico did not stop pumping texas crude when asked "politely"? HA!

so in fact, gulf war 1 was indeed an oil war, although not quite for the reasons your run-of-the-mill liberal may tell you. It just so happened that kuwait supplied us with oil. Kuwait was stealing iraq's oil, and iraq attacked kuwait for it.

So....roundabout...woudl I like to see saddam back in power? No. I would not have minded him in power before (no skin off my back), but now things have gone too far and his return to power WOULD spark a civil war. He is now useless as a dictator.

Bush was stupid to invade iraq before afganistan was finished. Starting one war...before the one you're already in is over...is damned-near always going to lead into a quagmire somewhere.

Before 1990, saddam was our friend. there was no good reason other than oil to change that.

Ah, the genocides....much has been made of saddam's treatment of the indigeous people of the north, the kurds. As an american, I shut my mouth when it comes to criticizing the treatment of native peoples of a land by the non-native ruling government. We actually gave smallpox-infested blankets to women and children. Wait...isn't that a use of a WMD by our military against a village of our own people? Hmmm.... gives ya thought.

Whatever. Politics is war and war is politics. It was a bad move, and we should admit that it was a bad move, and continue the mission....because if you're going to do something wrong, at least do it the right way!

(in reply to JohnWarren)

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/6/2005 4:22:18 AM

rankandefile

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serious question, here... im not trying to be a prick.

what would you consider the "right way"?

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/7/2005 3:18:54 AM

pantera

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rankandefile

Every bit of the "evidence" is speculation.

..........

it is even more speculation to say that there were NO WMDs- at least there is "evidence" to the contrary- I leave you with the task of find proof of a negative-

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/7/2005 8:01:04 AM

DesertRat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pantera

quote:

ORIGINAL: rankandefile

Every bit of the "evidence" is speculation.

..........

it is even more speculation to say that there were NO WMDs- at least there is "evidence" to the contrary- I leave you with the task of find proof of a negative-

You should try to get a job with the Bush administration...if you don't already work there. They would love you for still pushing the same lies that even THEY have abandoned. They would probably transfer you from the "Discredited WMD Bureau" to the "Defending Torture Task Force".

Bob

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/7/2005 12:25:08 PM

UtopianRanger

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Great post. Looks like we're reading from the same book. I find Robert Mugabe ten times worse than the former ruler of Iraq. And yes, Iran, in it's fundamentalism based wisdom is/was always more dangerous than the secular tyrant in Iraq - We should have stuck with No-fly zones, deterrence and containment.

Nothing burns me more than to knowingly throw good money after bad money.
It's really too bad that instead of having payroll taxes deducted from your check, we couldn't just keep all the money and then have an itemized statement sent at the end of the year denoting how much each tax payer owes for his share of invading Iraq. It's my bet that not more fifteen percent would be willing to pay the bill. Just think how a simple change like that would make both politicians and the government so much more efficient.

- The Ranger

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/7/2005 12:59:25 PM

DesertRat

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Ranger,

I like your line-item tax idea. I also agree about Mugabe. He's one of the many very wicked dictators our country doesn't seem to care much about. Why don't we invade Zimbabwe and bring freedom and democracy to the people there? Hussein's biggest mistakes were 1) being a very rotten, wicked guy, 2) sitting on top of some very rich oil deposits, and 3) not being in a position to command much respect or loyalty from the Muslim world.

We should have stuck with our previous containment policy. The invasion and occupation have made us weaker and displayed that weakness for the whole world to see. American soldiers and Iraqi civilians are being killed and maimed because of Bush's incompetence.

Bob

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/7/2005 1:30:00 PM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat
You should try to get a job with the Bush administration...if you don't already work there. They would love you for still pushing the same lies that even THEY have abandoned. They would probably transfer you from the "Discredited WMD Bureau" to the "Defending Torture Task Force".

Bob

Sounds like a bent cop trying to justify a bad shoot.

He had a gun
We didnt' find any gun at the scene
He had a gun in the resturant
We couldn't find anyone there who saw him with a gun
Look look, up on the mantle. Isn't that a shot gun
Well, yes
I can prove he was sitting next to the fireplace.

Truth: I was scared and didn't really look
Truth: I was scared the UN might realize Sadam didn't have WMDs

TRUTH: A man (200.000 people are dead including over 2.000 Americans) because I didn't do my job right.

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/7/2005 1:39:01 PM

UtopianRanger

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Thanks Bob. I'm a huge fan when it comes to efficiency. I don't want to get off on a tangent, but I can really tell you that if there is absolutely one thing that would change this country {for the better} and end collusion and crooked, self-interested politicians, that stop our government from becoming more efficient, it's the whole payroll tax scheme that's set up to purposely to keep the average citizen from becoming part of the real decision making, power base.

Set the whole thing up where the citizenry has more responsibility and direct involvement {viewing an itemized list of expenditures and then writing a check}, and the wastefulness and wishful thinking declines and the system becomes more efficient.

- The Ranger

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/7/2005 1:57:01 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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quote:

I also agree about Mugabe. He's one of the many very wicked dictators our country doesn't seem to care much about. Why don't we invade Zimbabwe and bring freedom and democracy to the people there?

Oh Bob, I think you know we don't really want to bring freedom and democracy to all people. M

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/9/2005 2:49:47 AM

rankandefile

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pantera

quote:

ORIGINAL: rankandefile

Every bit of the "evidence" is speculation.

..........

it is even more speculation to say that there were NO WMDs- at least there is "evidence" to the contrary- I leave you with the task of find proof of a negative-

proof of a negative? ok. there haven't been any found. do you really think the bush administration would keep that information to themselves? why in the hell would they do that? any scrap of evidence proving existence of wmd would be publicized immediately, and in a big way. it would validate their lies, and the war. come on. think.

< Message edited by rankandefile -- 12/9/2005 3:01:32 AM >

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/9/2005 2:51:53 AM

rankandefile

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

quote:

ORIGINAL: pantera

quote:

ORIGINAL: rankandefile

Every bit of the "evidence" is speculation.

..........

it is even more speculation to say that there were NO WMDs- at least there is "evidence" to the contrary- I leave you with the task of find proof of a negative-

You should try to get a job with the Bush administration...if you don't already work there. They would love you for still pushing the same lies that even THEY have abandoned. They would probably transfer you from the "Discredited WMD Bureau" to the "Defending Torture Task Force".

Bob

hah.

< Message edited by rankandefile -- 12/9/2005 3:02:43 AM >

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/9/2005 2:56:46 AM

rankandefile

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pantera, maybe i misunderstood your reason for posting that article. did you post it to show how much spin is in media, or do you believe all of that crap?

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RE: One or Two Iraq Questions - 12/10/2005 2:15:06 AM

girl4you2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Anyone want to know what causes terrorism?

Here, this causes terrorism:

http://hrw.org/reports/2005/us0905/

"...by trying to claim that it was “rogue elements” we seriously hinder our ability to ensure this doesn’t happen again. And, that has not only moral consequences, but it has practical consequences in our ability to wage the War on Terror. We’re mounting a counter-insurgency campaign, and if we have widespread violations of the Geneva Conventions, that seriously undermines our ability to win the hearts and minds of the Muslim world.

[I]f America holds something as the moral standard, it should be unacceptable for us as a people to change that moral standard based on fear. The measure of a person or a people’s character is not what they do when everything is comfortable. It’s what they do in an extremely trying and difficult situation, and if we want to claim that these are our ideals and our values then we need to hold to them no matter how dark the situation."

the above excerpt from the linked source, an officer from west point. interesting views the soldiers had in that link.

so if we're tired of iraqi people not getting on the democracy band wagon, how about another way, that would let our soldiers come home:

"No one likes us-I don't know why We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around even our old friends put us down Let's drop the big one and see what happens
We give them money-But are they grateful? No they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old Africa is far too hot And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name Let's drop the big one There'll be no one left to blame us
We'll save Australia Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo We'll built an All American amusement park there They got surfin too

Boom goes London and boom Paree More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round Will just be another American town
Oh how peaceful it will be We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono And there'll be Italian shoes for me They'll hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now Let's drop the big one now "

< Message edited by girl4you2 -- 12/10/2005 2:35:38 AM >

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