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Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 9:15:55 AM

tsatske

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Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
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At our munch, we have a question and discussion period. A question was asked at our last munch that caused me to think about this question. I plan to ask at the next munch, but I suddenly decided to ask here, too, to see what some of the people here, some of whom I consider quite wise, think. This is not about a problem in my life or relationship, just a general question.
At the munch, someone asked 'How do you punish a Masochist'. Many answers were given, but, as I listened, many of them sort of disturbed me. There were a lot of 'Ignore her.' 'Don't speak to her'., that kind of thing.
Now, I know that many have dynamics that do not include punishment, and that is fine. I happen to be one of those slaves for who punishment is an extremely effective dynamic - it allows me to let go of a mistake and move on, forgiving myself, because I know that He has forgiven me.
But the punishments they were talking about - ignoring, isolating, ect - to me, those are the nuclear bombs. Master has done that ONCE - I was visiting family in my hometown, and he called at night before I went to bed to check on me and say goodnight. He asked if I had taken my sugar reading and meds, and I said, not yet. He said, 'Hang up the phone and do it now. then go to bed. I will call you in the morning' What a horrid night! But, see, to me, that was done over an issue that was WORTH the nuclear bomb - not taking my medicine. It was appropriate, IMO.
So, what I am asking is - what punishments are the 'nuclear bombs', in your opinion, and when is it appropriate to pull them out?

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

Post #: 1

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 9:48:07 AM

PanthersMom

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From: Cleveland Ohio
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why should it take a "nuclear bomb" issue to deal with discipline? one of the worst things in the world for a submissive is to hear "you have disappointed me" from the dominant. there are simple things a dominant can do to deal with a masochist, all of them very effective in getting across the message that the person screwed up and must face the consequences. don't hit her, that takes care of the physical part, be nice to her, that negates the emotional element, and don't tell her for how long, that nullifies the mental aspect. so whatever slant the sub takes on the masochistic role, you're taking away all the things that might trigger that need being met as well as leaving them off-base as to when the "punishment" might end.

PM

PM

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 2

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 9:53:48 AM

OmegaG

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Joined: 10/23/2007
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as I've stated before, m'Lord has told me that when he is truly angry with me he will give me corner time or isolation time, it will be time which there won't be talking between us, and I suspect that it will be difficult for me as all I can do during that time is think. It will be for a specific amount of time, after that time has passed there would be communication and (I can't believe I'm saying this as I hate this word) closure.

What appals me though is open ended periods of being ignored, or periods of isolation when one can't have physical closure afterwards. I guess that since I am not in his vicinity right now a nuclear bomb for me would be an isolation that streched over days and could only be resolved through electronic or telephonic means. Because at that point I'd really need a hug to put it behind me.

_____________________________

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 3

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 10:08:26 AM

Dnomyar

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I like what PanthersMom said. Mind games can be a powerful punishment.

(in reply to OmegaG)

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RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 12:19:10 PM

tsatske

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From: Louisville, KY
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Dnomyar, PM, - Do you think that that sort of open ended change in daily protocol, might be the kind of nuclear bomb I'm talking about? I'm talking about, the things that, for one particular sub, get the message across almost 'too well', with the potentail of it really hurting. Not talking to your Dom, for instance.
I'm with Omega. I do not hate corner time, as she does, but I do need, for lack of a better word, the 'closure', and forgiveness, and absolute assurance of and feeling of forgiveness, that, for me, come with punishment. Another bomb punishment for me, and one many Doms in the past have had trouble understanding, is not being punished, because then I have a lot of trouble forgiving myself and moving on. Another thing that Master has used exactly once, and in such a way as to make it obvious he understands the impact, understands how it works, and choses wisely when to use it. and, yes, he was very kind and tender to me. He often is, but right then, when I was beating myself up, it was very hard to take. He let me cry in his arms as I accepted that my behavoir had not been a good thing for us, and that he would not be punishing me for it.
So many Doms I've known have taken the 'this isn't worth punishing you over, it's no big deal' tact, leaving me to deal with beating myself up over the littlest issues, instead of over the ones they most want changed.

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 5

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 12:21:09 PM

peppermint

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From: Montana
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Worst punishment to date was not being allowed to read books for 3 days....an enternity for a compulsive reader.

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 6

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 12:22:28 PM

littlebitxxx

Posts: 732
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I think that punishment for an intentional wrongdoing could be just a look, a statement, some alone time, up to the cessation of impact play for a specific period. But mostly I find that any punishment needed is a symptom of a breakdown in discipline or training. A lot of times, it seems, the sub is punished for doing something wrong when the instructions were not made clear or were misunderstood. Then the tables are turned and she is blamed for "not clarifying" when he probably could have been clearer in the first place and made sure she understood.

MO only.

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There is no such thing as can't unless it is followed by yet

It is the meaningless little acts that become meaningful in the doing.

The people that mind don't matter and the people that matter don't mind.

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Post #: 7

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 12:25:16 PM

DiurnalVampire

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I cant imagine anything more nuclear than voicing my disappointment. Fox is a maso, and i have just had to SOUND upset to bring him to the brink of tears.

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VampiresLair

(in reply to littlebitxxx)

Post #: 8

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 12:32:48 PM

tsatske

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
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Punishment in general is not as difficult to identify for me as most Doms seem to think it will/would be, for a masochist. If I am well scolded first, it puts me in a mindset in which I do not process the pain, as pleasure, or as play. One part is, for me, in play, 'pleasing my Dom' is a very important part of what turns it into pleasure, much of my masochism comes directly from my submission. And if I need to be punished, well, I already have failed to please my Master.
as a result, Master's punishments are, in fact, on an objective level, much less harsh than our playtime, becuae it just hurts. And I don't yell, or cry, or beg, or anything else which is part of the enjoyable release from playtime for me. I grit my teeth, count, and take it, and let it hurt.
Often when Master and I are teasing, He will jokingly threaten some brutal, dire punsihment, and I'll just smile and say, 'bring it on', and he'll look at me and say, 'uh huh, after we have a little talk about it.' Ouch. That makes all the difference to me.

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to peppermint)

Post #: 9

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 12:37:08 PM

Shawn1066

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

I cant imagine anything more nuclear than voicing my disappointment. Fox is a maso, and i have just had to SOUND upset to bring him to the brink of tears.

This. I don't believe she's ever actually been upset at me.

DV's Fox

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)

Post #: 10

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 4:20:04 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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Idiot (in general, not here) It's one of the oldest myths in kinkdom that you can't punish a masochist with pain. Bullshit.

If a sub has internalize the punishment, a look can be agony. If the sub has not internalized the punishment, no amount of beating will suffice.

Masochism is irrelevant to headspace. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

For myself personally, punishment itself IS a nuclear bomb and if that has to come out of the closet, there's some serious damage and issues going on.

The need to punish is almost always a sign of a much bigger problem and until that is addressed, no amount of punishment will be effective.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 3/26/2008 4:21:09 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 4:37:58 PM

Leatherist

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Make the offending party pay for it with unpleasant and arduous labor. That gives them time to think, and saves you from doing chores you would rather not yourself.

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My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 5:13:36 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Something like that The Man would have said to go do it and call him back in five minutes. But the rest of that is because the punishers aren't really thinking about the results on the sub but on getting off on nonconsensual emotional sadism under the guise of discipline or consequence or punishment. That and the fact that they are piss poor dominants because they simply don't know how to inspire submission, or teach someone how to do something, the only thing they know is to inflict pain and they confuse sadist with dominant.

Dominants don't have to be sadists. And just because you enjoy dishing out pain doesn't mean you can lead a relationship.

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Slave to laundry

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Post #: 13

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 5:27:06 PM

kinkypuppy2

Posts: 345
Joined: 11/4/2007
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Biggest thing to remember do not use as punnishment anything or toy that can be attached to them by a need or desire

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Post #: 14

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 6:19:28 PM

MasterWilliam55

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Joined: 1/27/2006
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Basic for a masochist would be denying her/him the right to provide service, corner time, taking a collar or slave ring away for a period of time, verbal chastisment, and ignoring her/him are all usefull. If it's very serious like a breach of trust, have Her/Him destroy something of emotional value, like a symbol of your realtionship. This sounds harsh and borders on cruelty I know.

I had a slave that I did this to. I made her destroy a symbol of our relationship. In my mind it was better than my giving up on the relationship.

Every thing depends on the circumstances. Too many people think of punishment or disipline as a game or play, but if you consider yourself a Master then you have responsibilities that go beyond "play". Masochists provide more of a challange with regards to punishment and disipline if your considering somehting physical, but mental punishment or disipline works on everyone.

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 15

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 7:27:39 PM

ophelialocke

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Joined: 9/2/2007
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Iggy, IMHO, is very dangerous stuff, along the same lines that emotional withholding and the Dominant reacting out of anger can cause great damage.

I am not maso, but I imagine that for masos it could be effective to have the punishment be something very boring and non-stimulating - like having to spend every evening one week getting caught up with entering receipts into Quicken or something.

I am being kinda tongue-in-cheek and kinda not.

(in reply to MasterWilliam55)

Post #: 16

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 10:02:56 PM

slaveluci

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From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint

Worst punishment to date was not being allowed to read books for 3 days....an enternity for a compulsive reader.

.........oh, the horror!!!!! How could he???? I shudder to think

.........luci

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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 10:09:12 PM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
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From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske
But the punishments they were talking about - ignoring, isolating, ect - to me, those are the nuclear bombs

I agree. Punishment isn't something that really ever has to happen in my life (anymore). For Him, it's not about punishing, it's about correcting and guiding so that any actions/behaviors that disappoint or bother Him aren't repeated. It would definitely be the equivalent of a "bomb" to be ignored. He doesn't play games like that. As a matter of fact, He would do the opposite of ignoring and be talking, explaining, correcting - whatever it takes to get things going the way He wants and the way they should. Ignoring me wouldn't be accomplishing that in any way. How can He correct the issue if He pretends I'm not there? He'd consider that lazy and ineffective. Not His style at all...............luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 10:57:46 PM

mistressadj

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Joined: 11/5/2007
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This is not the first time I've seen this topic debated. Part of the disagreement comes, I believe, from the fact that no two relationships are exactly alike. In my case, I have several levels of D/s relationships. I have people who want me to dominate them for a few hours when they can schedule a session. I have little or no control over these people except for during the session, but I still may have a few expectations for their behavior. For example, I may want them to email me once a week. Failure to comply with my requests has consequences...or you might say results in a punishment. Depending on exactly how we relate to each other, the consequence could range from me reminding him of my rule...to no email from me that week... to the next session being cancelled... to taking a caning from me next session... to being dropped as my sub.

Some subs have a more intricate relationship...the closer you move to a M/s relationship, the more expectation there is for behavior and the more training that occurs. I suppose that generally speaking, training is best done by positive reinforcement. However, the nature of bdsm relationships naturally invites punishment as part of the training.

Some people have a domestic discipline arrangement. Some people have a Mommy/child relationship. Both of these naturally lead to corporal punishment for noncompliance.

I have a sub who doesn't quite fit into any category...he's not my slave, not my child, not my spouse, but he's more than the two-hours a month subbie. If you rate the casual sub to 24/7 slave spectrum from 1 to 10, he's about a 7. One day, he got into some real trouble. This was not, contrary to what I've read elsewhere in this thread, a sign that there is something seriously wrong with our relationship. It had nothing to do with our relationship...it was not a case of him disobeying me. However, his own guilt and my disappointment overwhelmed him so much that he needed to have an outlet...he needed to feel that he had been punished for his act and that he had done something to atone. He needed a way to move on. Even though he is a masochist, this was not "good pain." The same way that masochists don't like stubbing their toes anymore than the rest of us do...my sub did not like being spanked for something that he had actually done wrong. I saw someone say that it has to do with the way the punishment is internalized...and that's true, even for the top. Ordinarily I enjoy smacking the hell out of my subbies...and if I can leave marks and make them cry, even better. But this time...it hurt me to spank him....it felt like my heart was breaking...and I had to keep leaving the room because I didn't want him to know I was crying. I know for him, it wasn't just that the spanking hurt that bothered him...but it was the fact that he had displeased me that hurt him more.

So yes, it is possible to punish a masochist, even with pain. And yes, there are situations and relationships where such an act might be a positive way of dealing with behavior issues.

< Message edited by mistressadj -- 3/26/2008 11:08:46 PM >

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 19

RE: Punishing a Masochist - 3/26/2008 11:50:12 PM

MasterWilliam55

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Joined: 1/27/2006
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LOL...and I imagine that could work as well.

(in reply to ophelialocke)

Post #: 20

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