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Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 5:27:24 AM   
WickedKev


Posts: 305
Joined: 11/26/2004
Status: offline 		Safe, Sane, Consensual, a good slogan to teach the newbies I agree, but to an experienced Dom? Who is going to tell him/her they are not safe nor sane? Not I, for I do not know the dynamics of thier relationship, I'm an edge player myself but what I might deem as unsafe or insane others might see as normal activities. The only person who can tell me they don't feel my play is safe or sane, that I would even listen too is the sub/slave/bottom I am playing with. Anyone else would be told where to go, and god help them if they interrupted a scene to tell me. For me the only valid part of Safe, Sane, Consensual is the Consensual part. Let the flaming begin..........

< Message edited by WickedKev -- 10/2/2005 5:28:33 AM >
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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 5:45:07 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline 		The important thing to remember it's a SLOGAN not a blueprint. For a slogan to be effective it has to be short and usually vague. "I like Ike" worked. I doubt that "I think Ike would be a good president because he was a good commander but I do feel that he has a tendency to overdelegate" would have flown.

Trying to make it into something prescriptive is always going to be debatable. Heck, even the "consent" part has problems. Is a 17 year old able to consent... a six year old? How about someone addicted to drugs? How about a "real wingnut?" How about a woman? (It has been brought up by feminists, no less.)



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(in reply to WickedKev)
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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 5:51:09 AM   
FTopinMichigan


Posts: 571
Joined: 7/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedKev

Safe, Sane, Consensual, a good slogan to teach the newbies I agree, but to an experienced Dom? Who is going to tell him/her they are not safe nor sane?


If I felt a Dom/me was doing something unsafe, or causing harm...I'd speak up! Anyone that knows me, knows I have absolutely no problem with being vocal when necessary.

While in my home, a Dom was unsafe in a scene, and I was actually informed by another party guest, and had to stop the scene. The Dom was NOT being "safe" causing disregard for me, and the sub/bottom, as he was caning her and causing her to bleed in my own bed....far from "sane" at the point of him losing "himself" in scene and going beyond a pleasure for a "first timer," and the fact that the sub/bottom was lost in subspace, she was incapable of acting with consent. In fact, she was clueless that she was bleeding. I stopped the scene, and he feigned ignorance to the fact that she was bleeding. She was marked for months thereafter (and while surely an acceptable choice for others that enjoy that, it was not appropriate for a first timer to the cane, but of course that's just my opinion, and the general rule for most of those folks I know).

In a public scene, there are rules and protocol for handling unsafe scenes. Even though what's unsafe to one, is not to another, there is always someone there to approach and address concerns.

If "I" was operating, or performing in an unsafe manner, I'd appreciate if someone spoke up and shared their opinion of that. I may not agree, or I may be able to explain things to them, to ease their concerns...or, and here's a good one....I might even "learn" something new myself...by listening.

I believe there is a manner in which this situation can be approached without ruffling feathers...OR, with anyone getting hurt.

K

(in reply to WickedKev)
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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 5:53:19 AM   
Oumae


Posts: 911
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline 		I guess it depends on how you understand or view the terms. I see the safe and sane as more pertaining to the people involved in the relationship/play, what might trigger bad feelings for one won't another. Of course if doing something like fireplay you would have to take the safety of people around into it.
The consent part I see as being more open besides the people involved.. if playing in a club the consent is also covered by following club rules or in public I feel the feelings of others has to be taken into account.

Oumae

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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 6:05:26 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		This misunderstanding of what constitutes "Safe, Sane and Consensual" is what has caused Slave David Stein to have reservations about having created the slogan at all.

SSC is not meant to be a list of universally safe and sane, or unsafe and unsane, activities. What constitutes safe and sane differs from individual to individual, based upon their knowledge and experience level, preparation, emotional state of mind, physical limitations, etc. In this way, it is relative to each individual, rather than an absolute that is the same for everyone.

SSC implies that individuals participate in “safe” activities (understanding that no activity, even crossing the street, is without risk). As extreme (and hopefully obvious) examples, death and dismemberment would not be considered “safe” activities. Even “edge play” (the more “extreme” B/D S/M activities) can (and should) be practiced safely.

SSC also requires that individuals remain within their level of knowledge and experience in order for an activity to be “safe” (ie: pilots may safely fly planes, but I do not have the training to do so). It is not safe for all people to engage in every B/D S/M activity, because they may not all have the same abilities, training, or experience as others.

Where’s that line drawn between safe and unsafe? It differs from individual to individual (ie: it is relative to those in the scene) and activity to activity (ie: experience and training in each specific B/D S/M activity).

So what "is" SSC besides a slogan? It's the framework for a decsion making process, so that you (the individual) may come to a conclusion as to whether something is safe and sane for you and your submissive/slave.

Public play (such as at dungeons and clubs) necessitates that DM's also utilize a decision making process to ensure that the play is also safe for the other folks in attendance, and whether they are willing/able to accept the legal liabilities inherent to providing a venue for certain activities (a fiduciary responsibility, if you will).

John

(in reply to WickedKev)
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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 6:13:12 AM   
WickedKev


Posts: 305
Joined: 11/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FTopinMichigan

If I felt a Dom/me was doing something unsafe, or causing harm...I'd speak up! Anyone that knows me, knows I have absolutely no problem with being vocal when necessary.


If you know the Dom or sub well then I would regard that as an exception. If you have no knowledge of the people involved with the scene then who are you to interfere with it? (Unless the sub is calling out a safe word or screaming for help, or they are breaking a club rule ie. blood letting, scarring, body fluids etc). What makes you the person who knows so much that you can say they doing something unsafe or causing harm?

quote:

While in my home, a Dom was unsafe in a scene, and I was actually informed by another party guest, and had to stop the scene. The Dom was NOT being "safe" causing disregard for me, and the sub/bottom, as he was caning her and causing her to bleed in my own bed....far from "sane" at the point of him losing "himself" in scene and going beyond a pleasure for a "first timer," and the fact that the sub/bottom was lost in subspace, she was incapable of acting with consent. In fact, she was clueless that she was bleeding. I stopped the scene, and he feigned ignorance to the fact that she was bleeding. She was marked for months thereafter (and while surely an acceptable choice for others that enjoy that, it was not appropriate for a first timer to the cane, but of course that's just my opinion, and the general rule for most of those folks I know).


I covered that in the Experienced Dom as oposed to a newbie. And if he lost himself so much into a scene that he lost sight of the welfare of the sub he was playing with then he is by no means experienced. Also the fact it was in your home, so therefore you set the rules, and would agree you did the right thing. I was talking about in a club.

quote:

In a public scene, there are rules and protocol for handling unsafe scenes. Even though what's unsafe to one, is not to another, there is always someone there to approach and address concerns.


Very true, there are and have done DMing myself, but I enforced the clubs rules and would never step into a scene unless they were breaking the rules or the sub was calling for help. I would not step in just because someone not involved in the scene didn't like they way the play was going.

quote:

If "I" was operating, or performing in an unsafe manner, I'd appreciate if someone spoke up and shared their opinion of that. I may not agree, or I may be able to explain things to them, to ease their concerns...or, and here's a good one....I might even "learn" something new myself...by listening.

I believe there is a manner in which this situation can be approached without ruffling feathers...OR, with anyone getting hurt.

K


Again I agree with what you are saying to a point, if you felt aggreived by my playing and I was not breaking clubs rules and the sub was not screaming for help and you approuched me after the play to talk about it then I would more than likely explain what i did, why I did it and how I did it, but that is AFTER THE SCENE. As for learnng have always said the day I stop learning in the lifestyle is the day I probably leave it, and will listen as well as give advice quite happily.

< Message edited by WickedKev -- 10/2/2005 6:14:11 AM >

(in reply to FTopinMichigan)
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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 6:40:39 AM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Safe, Sane, Consensual, a good slogan to teach the newbies I agree, but to an experienced Dom? Who is going to tell him/her they are not safe nor sane? Not I, for I do not know the dynamics of thier relationship, I'm an edge player myself but what I might deem as unsafe or insane others might see as normal activities. The only person who can tell me they don't feel my play is safe or sane, that I would even listen too is the sub/slave/bottom I am playing with. Anyone else would be told where to go, and god help them if they interrupted a scene to tell me. For me the only valid part of Safe, Sane, Consensual is the Consensual part. Let the flaming begin..........


I used to DM down at the space (local organization here) a few years ago....we go by the R.A.C.K. rule. I can say that i have never had to stop a scene. I can say though, that given the responsibility that i had at the time, IF there was a situation that arose that i had to make that call......you, or anyone else that happened to be playing there, i would, within our guidelines, stop your scene. If you did not stop right then and find out what was going on, or just blatantly continued...according to the rules down at the space, you would be asked to leave.

I do understand that people do edge play, some i have seen do extreme edge play, i have also seen things that other dungeons would not allow. I think the whole point is...if you are down at a local dungeon and playing, there are rules to abide by.............if not, most likely you would be asked to leave.

Happy Sunday!

~smilezz~





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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 7:40:56 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah there is big problems with the ssc... largely in peoples ability to move beyond the lines they draw and play them appropriately in the various situtions one will find themself in. Public play parties have rules... private home has the rules of the home owner... and then you have your own space with only your rules... and lets not forget scenes that can be done right in Mainstream society which has it's own rules. In each case the ssc is applied differently... . The same experienced person will need to adjust their own play in each of the four areas I stated, to some degree or other. Depending on the rules that exist outside of ones own... one might not really adjust their play to any degree and the edge player just might have to change alot.

I am not sure what you mean by edge player thou.... since I find that the term is rather subjective. Each person has a different edge. In our local communities there is also a percieved edge as a norm... Some play pushes a person edge and sometimes it even pushes the edge of the community in general... both are good things in my opinion. Just so happens last night, I did a heavy scene of kicking in a public play space. Not a big deal in my opinion.. but for some this was rather shocking.. not your everyday type of play in these parts... so is this edge play... not for me... doesn't even come close! but for some it was rather discomforting to say the least.

I agree whole heartedly... that at the end of the day... we are the judges of your own play and apply ssc in our way... our way meaning those directly in the play/scene. However, going outside of the rules/norms of the particular space we are in will/can result in some on wanted consequences. it is choices we all make... many stay will within... some push them and others just fly right past.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to WickedKev)
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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 8:01:20 AM   
Evanesce


Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedKev

Safe, Sane, Consensual, a good slogan to teach the newbies I agree, but to an experienced Dom? Who is going to tell him/her they are not safe nor sane? Not I, for I do not know the dynamics of thier relationship, I'm an edge player myself but what I might deem as unsafe or insane others might see as normal activities. The only person who can tell me they don't feel my play is safe or sane, that I would even listen too is the sub/slave/bottom I am playing with. Anyone else would be told where to go, and god help them if they interrupted a scene to tell me. For me the only valid part of Safe, Sane, Consensual is the Consensual part. Let the flaming begin..........


Personally, I believe SSC is nothing more than a meaningless platitude used in an attempt to show the vanillas we're not really the scary, freaky, dangerous people they think we are. Within the lifestyle, however, I've seen those three letters used in malicious attempts to destroy the reputations of others, simply because what they do might make a few people uncomfortable.

I, myself, when involved in a conversation about SSC a couple years ago, made the comment that I do not blindly follow the SSC mantra. I was told rather rudely by another slave (who had NO clue who he was talking to, was a moderator and, immediately after his diatribe to me went into hiding for several weeks while his Mistress made excuses for his behavior) that it was "people like me" who made living this lifestyle hard on everyone else, and that I was to "Get on the bandwagon or get off this forum." Sorry, but I'm not jumping on that bandwagon even if you use a cattle prod.

Everything we do involves some degree of risk. We cannot make it 100% "safe," no matter what we do.

Much of what we do can evoke that "are you out of your mind?" reaction, even from people within the lifestyle. Everyone's kink is different, and someone, somewhere, is going to think it's insane.

Even consensuality can be questioned. Master and I live in a constant state of consensual non-consent, meaning that He can and will do whatever He pleases, and even if I don't like it, I'm going along with it as long as it doesn't cross the bounds of legality. I made that choice years ago and, sometimes, people looking in at our relationship might think I'm being abused. Not so. My Master's VERY careful with His property, but not everyone can see that.

In a nutshell, what works for us is the fact that we are aware of the risks inherent in what we do, we agree to live our lives a specific way, and we're true to ourselves and each other. Someone else's opinion of our choices means nothing.

Denise
the Kaptin's wench

(in reply to WickedKev)
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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 8:02:51 AM   
perfection20005


Posts: 419
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline 		I agree that its your choice of what SSC means in your own home, but if you play in someone elses home, or in a dungeon, its no longer your rules. It becomes the person who is in charge to make sure nothing gets out of hand. If someone sees you doing something that is against the rules or they think the sub/slave is being harmed to the point it may cause permanent damage or death, it is their responsibility to stop you. What would the world be like if we just let someone beat another person to death before you were stopped(I know it happens sometimes).

_____________________________

perfection

"I took one look at Him, and I knew He was my Master."

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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 8:21:59 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I think Safe, Sane, and Consensual is something you need to discuss at the beginning of a relationship -- whether it is just a flogging at a local party or something that might become a lifetime arrangement.

I have a particular way I think about the terms myself. This is for me and my partners only.

Safe: take the time to learn how to do the activities as best you can to minimumize any possible damage to either partner (needs to be done by both/all people, not just top); you are in control of what you do -- no drugs, no alcohol, you are fully honest about any medications you are taking and realistic about how they affect your control and perceptions

Sane: you do it for positive reasons; if you have mental or emotional issues you are upfront about them and you are actively seeking to improve those issues; you do not do BDSM as therapy

Consensual: everyone is as honest as they can be; you give as much information as you can; you only accept or give consent when you feel you can withdraw it at any time, in other words you have a choice in the matter; or informed consent for short.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 8:25:33 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perfection20005

I agree that its your choice of what SSC means in your own home, but if you play in someone elses home, or in a dungeon, its no longer your rules. It becomes the person who is in charge to make sure nothing gets out of hand. If someone sees you doing something that is against the rules or they think the sub/slave is being harmed to the point it may cause permanent damage or death, it is their responsibility to stop you. What would the world be like if we just let someone beat another person to death before you were stopped(I know it happens sometimes).


Thus the reason many parties and clubs I've been to have rules that you should read and must sign under before you are allowed in.

My general philosophy is that if I don't like another person's rules or ideas about what is SSC then I don't play there or with them.

This philosohy works well on etiquette issues too. Let's say I go to a club or a party where the "rules" say "every dominant will be called Master or Mistress by every submissive". That clashes with my own rules so instead of signing the document, or making a complicate or going in and causing problems or being uncomfortable, I and mine simply leave.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to perfection20005)
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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 8:37:18 AM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		I think the problem is that people seem to present/adopt SSC as dogma when in reality it's just a nifty little slogan to remind people to use their brains. It doesn't replace knowing yourself and critical thinking. Since safe and sane are so incredibly subjective I prefer the RACK philosophy as I think it encourages people to actually think about the risks before they consent. JMHO, of course.

(in reply to WickedKev)
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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 8:46:15 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I used to use the tagline "unsafe, insane, and non-consensual" on another website.

People seemed to think anyone who would say such a thing really had to be insane.

(in reply to MsIncognito)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 10:41:19 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIncognito

I think the problem is that people seem to present/adopt SSC as dogma when in reality it's just a nifty little slogan to remind people to use their brains. It doesn't replace knowing yourself and critical thinking.


excellant point!!!!!!!


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to MsIncognito)
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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 10:44:31 AM   
Soulhuntre


Posts: 223
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evanesce
Personally, I believe SSC is nothing more than a meaningless platitude used in an attempt to show the vanillas we're not really the scary, freaky, dangerous people they think we are. Within the lifestyle, however, I've seen those three letters used in malicious attempts to destroy the reputations of others, simply because what they do might make a few people uncomfortable.


I agree... and I think it has done us serious damage.

The closed equivelent I can think of is the NRA... they spent so much time gaining ground for gun ownership saying "we use them to hunt deer!" that their victory (the preservation of gun ownership) was ruined ... because many of the weapons useful to own (the man killing, defend yourself type) are outlawed because they aren't useful for der hunting.

Alternately, look at the homosexal community that gained acceptance by sayign that they wanted to be loving and monogamous just liek the 'nillas - at the cost of marginalizing vast swaths of their own who were non-monogamous.

Beware of bying acceptance by hiding what you are.


(in reply to Evanesce)
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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 10:45:05 AM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I used to use the tagline "unsafe, insane, and non-consensual" on another website.

People seemed to think anyone who would say such a thing really had to be insane.

Tell me about it. The front page of my old website used to get me some very interesting emails.

~stef

_____________________________

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RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 10:53:54 AM   
itzelwing


Posts: 37
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		Sorry folks, but it's not a platitude, nor is it dogma... it's a simple guideline for our community interactions... whether one-on-one or in a public scene.


Safe - means that while you may HURT the submissive or bottom, you do not HARM them. We do not maim or kill one another. We do not spread disease or infection.

In the public scene, safe also implies safety to others, whether it is safe sex, control of body fluids, or control of your implements. Flinging a bullwhip in a crowded room is not safe. Beating a bloody ass until the blood spatters around the room is not safe.

There is no margin for subjectivity and judgement here. Despite the fact that most folks who have been around for a while take it for granted, that doesn't mean it isn't a real consideration.

Consensual - is another straightforward concept. If any physical act on your part is not done with the consent of the other party, then you are not only in violation of the principles of the community, you are in violation of the law.

If your idea of a fun time is to beat your submissive to a quivering, mindless blob, then that's fine... as long as it is done safely and with consent. You can cut and burn, and screw and nail and mindfuck to your heart's content, as long as you do it with some core standards of safety and with your submissive's consent.

Your "slave" or "submissive" is there by his or her own choice and consent, and no matter how committed, the moment that person wants out it's over.

I honestly feel like some folks tend to forget that this entire scene is based on fantasy. Whatever you call yourself: Master, slave, sadist, masochist, switch, dom, sub, lifestyle, etc... they are all constructs from our individual wills and psyches.

I don't care how much a part of your soul and identity these roles may be, everyone involved remains a human being with rights, feelings, and options. This is the reason that non-consensual slavery, assault, and restraint are illegal.

Sane - is really the only one that lends itself to subjective definition. It's a little harder for me to break this one down, because what I consider "sane" may seem totally out there for someone else. I've seen some pretty whacky and incomprehensible stuff, but as long as it fell under the first two guidelines, then it would be hard for me to call it "insane".

It seems to me though, that what WickedKev actually objects to is the individuals who would make judgements on the safety of his activities based on their own experience/feelings rather than the reality of what is happening. I've experienced this too, and it's quite off-putting.

Even so, the fact that people tend to narrow the definitions according to their own tastes and experience doesn't change the fact that the SSC "slogan" is a valid and useful standard for behavior in this community.


_____________________________

Master, Friend, and Lover of ItzKat

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 3:41:49 PM   
target


Posts: 46
Status: offline 		Most public play I've been to involves a "Dungeon Master" . Anyone else interupting a scene for ANY reason is considered bad form . SSC is between the people playing.

(in reply to itzelwing)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Safe, Sane and Consenual - 10/2/2005 3:48:29 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: target

Most public play I've been to involves a "Dungeon Master" . Anyone else interupting a scene for ANY reason is considered bad form . SSC is between the people playing.


Properly it's "Dungeon Monitor" - not "Dungeon Master".

(in reply to target)
Profile   Post #: 20
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