RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (Full Version)

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faerytattoodgirl -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 3:51:49 PM)

if everything happens for a reason...how come i am so hot looking...and dont have a Mistress???

cause its a CURSE!!!!

nothing is set in stone...there is no destiny...there is no fate...



UncleNasty -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 3:51:55 PM)

Cali, if that's how you make peace or offer apologies then Puuhhllleeeeeezzzzzzzeeee say something offensive to me.

Uncle Nasty



domiguy -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 4:01:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

Do you believe everything happens for a reason?



       Of course, though I'm much more likely to phrase it as "nothing happens in vacuum."  Now whether the reason something happens has anything whatsoever to do with the people it happens to is another matter entirely.


Too funny....But accurate.


Every funeral where someone dies before their time there is always some asshole ...who will find the right voice to utter..."Everything Happens For A Reason."

Yeah...Martha smoked two packs a day for twenty years....Or Jeff probably shouldn't have gotten behind the wheel so wasted.

We seek to find meaning within tragedy...Primarily because we are incredibly self centered fucks. When we speak of the deceased rarely do we say how it must suck being dead but rather the incredible inconvenience of that person's absence and the impact that it will have upon our lives.

I agree completely with TheHeretic....Everything does happen for a reason....In which the possible reason might stem from being at the wrong place at the right time or a completely random activity to being 100% culpable for whatever has transpired.





Gemini1766 -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 4:03:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766
We all have our own opinions on it Cali. Best if we all simply agree to disagree. I see no reason at all for us to be at odds over what ultimately are personally held beliefs.


Gem Love, that wasn't to you, I should have put "fast reply" on it.  The person who said the phrase in question to me, as I was laying on a gurney, with a morphine drip, bleeding, losing my unborn baby, well, let's just say if I had more strength at that moment they would have lost one or more appendages.  I see absolutely NO VALUE in saying it to someone, as it only serves to minimize and trivialize whatever pain (emotional, mental, and/or physical) they are experiencing at that moment.

Cali
(who feels she should send Gem a nekkie pic or something now as a peace offering)

Forgiven dear. Now go correct yourself where you said I'm not a sweety. No more hugs or spankings until you do. [sm=whoa.gif]



adoracat -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 4:23:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766
We all have our own opinions on it Cali. Best if we all simply agree to disagree. I see no reason at all for us to be at odds over what ultimately are personally held beliefs.


Gem Love, that wasn't to you, I should have put "fast reply" on it.  The person who said the phrase in question to me, as I was laying on a gurney, with a morphine drip, bleeding, losing my unborn baby, well, let's just say if I had more strength at that moment they would have lost one or more appendages.  I see absolutely NO VALUE in saying it to someone, as it only serves to minimize and trivialize whatever pain (emotional, mental, and/or physical) they are experiencing at that moment.

Cali
(who feels she should send Gem a nekkie pic or something now as a peace offering)



*hugs cali*  some people should just be kicked in the crotch, i am sure of it.

kitten



adoracat -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 4:27:50 PM)

~fast reply~

i'm sure that sometimes its just the universe laughing at us, and shit happens.

sometimes, though, a few words said at the right time to the right person, can set good things into motion and its "that happened for a reason".

my hubby said something to a friend of ours, she told me, those words both devistated me and led to my unburdening myself on TheEngineer, which lead to a proposal that has been 7 years in the making.    where one door had closed (wolf was making the comment that once the imp had left home, that he was "through" and things would change dramatically), another one opened (TheEngineer telling me that he indeed, did want to have me around always, and that was not only a long term arrangement, but that he wished it to be permanent and marry me).

its a mix of both.  i think people toss around "everything happens for a reason" too casually.

kitten, contemplative.



CalifChick -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 4:28:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766
Forgiven dear. Now go correct yourself where you said I'm not a sweety. No more hugs or spankings until you do. [sm=whoa.gif]


I'm having a moment... where did I say you weren't a sweety?  I'm so confuzzled.

UncleNasty:  Nice try.  Not a GOOD try, mind you, but a nice try.

Adora:  Thanks babe. 

Cali



greyarcher315 -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 5:00:54 PM)

   How You view this does depend on Your own beliefs. So what i say here is just my beliefs, doesn't make them right, just right for me.
  Everything does happen foe a reason,  but the reason is most often our own choices. we have free will, and with that comes the consequences of our actions, good or bad.  You can't blame the universe for all Your troubles. The random things that seem to happen usually happen for a reason. We don't always see the reason at the time, but its usually there. Again, we can chose to learn from those or not.
As far as babies born with terminal illnesses, there is a reason, and a choice involved. The spirit of that baby made the choice to come into the world that way for a reason, often to teach a lesson to someone who needs to learn it. The same hold true for children who die very young. They come into the world for a brief time, then go back to spirit after leaving the lesson for those who need it to learn from if they so desire. Those spirits may come back again later to learn more lessons themselves, or move on to another purpose.
       Again, this is what i believe, and it does require some faith, which can not be proven. But this works for me.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 5:10:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Desire begets choice begets act begets consequence begets desire.


So a baby who is born with a terminal illness created his own fate (consequence) through desire/choice?


I do believe the choices one makes in any life can have consequences across several lives.



CalifChick -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 5:11:38 PM)

Hey Gem... I found it.  I said I had no pictorial evidence that you were a softie.  It was a... ummmm... tongue in cheek... ummm... remark about your state of errrrrmmmm firmness.

Oh and Grey... I hope you keep those sentiments to yourself around anyone who has lost a child.  Trust me in that I know that sort of thing is NOT comforting to a woman losing a child. I cannot speak for men going thru it, but I can say that I know how it feels as a mother.

Cali



greyarcher315 -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 5:25:14 PM)

  Cali,
  i fully realize not every one has the same beliefs as me. i am nor a minister or priest, and i don't go preaching to others.  If someone needs that kind of support, i leave it to the professionals. Like i said, this is what works for me. i would never be so tactless as to tell someone who just lost a family member that "its ok, everything happens for a reason."  Something happening for a reason does not always make it easier to deal with.



adoracat -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 5:37:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
Oh and Grey... I hope you keep those sentiments to yourself around anyone who has lost a child.  Trust me in that I know that sort of thing is NOT comforting to a woman losing a child. I cannot speak for men going thru it, but I can say that I know how it feels as a mother.

Cali



cali, i've personally been through it 4 times.  i KNOW that kind of pain.  while i love my 2 imps, i still have thoughts of "what about...." and my mind gets downright ugly to me.  in my experience, its not something you ever really get over.

you get more hugs.  *hugs cali*  (sorry, i'm just huggy when its an emotional subject)

kitten



Noah -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 5:38:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

There is no reason for anything, we live in a chaotic universe governed by chance. However, we appear to be hardwired to see patterns and intent.
...


Let me see if I have this straight.

So the letters in the little white box above (those letters being "something" and therefore part of "anything" ) actually appear in a perfectly chaotic sequence generated at random by teh Universe.

The "m" at the beginning of your nickname and the "r" at the end appear there by random chance, every time you post?  Okay. Let's roll with this.

The string of letters and words comprising your entire post do not, for instance, appear in that sequence for the reason that, say, someone called meatcleaver intended that they should? I mean since there is--without exception--"no reason for anything"?

Meanwhile, I for my part have encountered this chaotic sequence of letters in the little white box and because of my wiring imagined a pattern (of words) that is not actually present (words, being patterns of letters, do not actually exist, but are only imputed by our wiring)? Similarly you are now imagining a pattern of words as you read this utterly chaotic string of letters?

That is to say that your wiring is making you imagine that someone posted this for a reason, but actually the Universal Random Chance Generator just spat them on your computer screen chaotically?

And in fact, by some statistically stupendous coincidence other readers around the globe have, when presented with this same chaotic sequence, are imagining quite similar intelligibility?

Come to think of it I'm surprised that you used the word "we" at all, since presumably this pattern you imagine that you see, of numerous similar beings with arms and legs and noses and the ability to post on the internet, is just an artifact of your hard wiring. The pattern that you might call "other people" isn't really there at all. It is actually just more chaotic data from the Universal Generator.

The universe you inhabit all boils down to one solipsistic little meatcleaver being presented with random data and imagining patterns like time and space, people and things.
Interesting.

These entailments of your avowed beliefs (and many more which I haven't troubled to outline) make Christianity, Islam and Judaism seem utterly straightforward by comparison, wouldn't you say?  When it comes to blind faith I think you take the cake.  Abraham was a piker compared to you, meat. 

Why do I say this?

It is your stated belief that absolutely everything you have ever encountered was nothing but chaotic data, generated by chance, void of pattern or intent in itself, to which you, in virtue of your wiring attributed patterns. The patterns you attributed must also have been chaotic, since, well, everything is and you're part of everything. Since there are no patterns in the universe then of course nothing could ever stand as empirical evidence for anything. The patterns which most people see as the rules of logic  you  recognize as random noise conjured into the appearance of a pattern by your hard wiring. As a  result, not only would empircal knowledge be impossible but induction and deduction also turn out to be fantasies boiled up in the cauldron of your hard wiring. Knowledge is impossible.

So the beliefs stated in your post entail not only radical solipsism but also radical epistemological scepticism. The universe consists of you (sitting there now dreaming up patterns and intents such as this post, and the Iraq war, and the Telletubbies, and your underpants and so forth) and no matter how long you sit there dreaming your world into existence you can never know anything.

I've poked around in the Mystic literatures of several cultures. Your post fits right in, dude. I don't see anything original in this Meatcleaveristic cosmology but I will credit you for assembling a nice little nest of classical mystical elements.

Now, not to put too fine a point on things, but I'd like to finish by pointing out the single most compelling entailment of your beliefs, as stated in your post:

Fgyrdhh sgy46h rgh4eegh 456y5edy 6sdf 2wgj;;j r6y5g 54y5y5 6y ergtejuje cahuu.

Did I get that all right or does anything need tweaking?
Thanks



ShareMyDream -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 5:50:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
We seek to find meaning within tragedy...Primarily because we are incredibly self centered fucks. When we speak of the deceased rarely do we say how it must suck being dead but rather the incredible inconvenience of that person's absence and the impact that it will have upon our lives.


I kind of think the most annoying form of death is where you work all your life and then die just before you can enjoy retirement. That is what we all work towards this magical retirement that is going to be so much better than our everyday lives. Then we find out retirement is over rated and there are so many things we missed along the way. We all think it could happen to us at any point when someone dies suddenly; it wakes us up momentarily from the routine of life.



subtee -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 8:12:00 PM)

Did you ever read "The Library of Babel?"

Curiouser and curiouser...



charmdpetKeira -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 9:25:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

Do you believe everything happens for a reason?


Yes.
 
My reasoning in simple terms; cause and effect.
 
More specifically, a thorough examination of my life has made me realize, the part of my life I had the least control over, “the early years”; was all significant toward my showing up and being successful in a D/s environment.
 
As a kid, it resembled a tour of duty in hell; every move I made was the effect of the actions of others, and only added fuel to the fires.
 
I’ve tried looking for a place where I could have made things better, but there was none; other then not being born at all.
 
Once I got here, way too many things started making sense, for me not to belong here.
 
I was a wreck as a kid, self destructive as a teen, ignorantly hopeful as a young adult, and now I am majoring in philosophy, by corresponding on the message boards of a BDSM website.
 
I can’t make this stuff up; my drive toward desire was, since I was young, and is still being, systematically removed. Yet, I still have passion and a goal.
 
In a general sense; I know that a well prepared meal, that entices all of the senses, is an accomplishment that takes skill, knowledge, preparation, and timing. To me, our universe is much like a well prepared meal. It does not make sense to me, knowing someone has to prepare the meal, that someone did not prepare this universe, and with a plan in mind.
 
k



patwi -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 9:38:37 PM)

Does -everything- happen for a reason? Not likely. Some things? I'd like to think yes.

At the end of January, I picked up my things, moved out of my home and left my husband and job behind, and moved 2 hours away back home with my mother.  Two weeks ago the doctors found some large likely cancerous masses, and she's slated for surgery. I'll be home to take care of her, otherwise she'd be living alone.

So maybe, sometimes, things happen for a reason. Or maybe sometimes, coincedence is very kind to us.



mzbehavin -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/30/2008 9:52:06 PM)

Does everything happen for a reason? Thats too simple... Some things do and some things dont. There is fate, then there is free will. Serendipity and accidents...
However, i believe in co-creation... Karma babble and religious rightousness has no impact on me.
xox



luckydog1 -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/31/2008 10:49:42 AM)

"There is no reason for anything, we live in a chaotic universe governed by chance. However, we appear to be hardwired to see patterns and intent."

Actually this is a rejection of Science.  Chaos is not random.  And it is goverened by laws, not chance.  It it is governed by the laws of science (as they actually are, not our current incomplete understanding of them). The gamma wave that stuck a pre humans genes in exactly the right place causing a mutation, leading to modern man, was set on its trajectory billions of years ago, likewise the chain of events that led to the pre human being in exactly the right place started billions of years ago.  Chaotic systems are deterministic, and behave according to absolute rules procedeing from their starting conditions.  We see things as random, but unless you reject the basis of science, nothing is.  We seem to be hardwired to see randomness, where it doesn't exist.

Does a reason require intent?   No, it doesn't.  So this is not a proof of a God of some sort.  But if you are an Athiest, absolutly everything was set in the initial conditions of creation.  There is an absolute reason (scientific law) for every event.

You have to accept a spiritual universe, for things (including the thoughts in our heads) to have any cause other than scientific law.   What other option is there?  An Atheistic rejection of scientific law?  I have never encountered a reasonable philosophy that meets those terms.  Anyone got one?



Noah -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/31/2008 7:23:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog

Actually this is a rejection of Science.  Chaos is not random.  And it is goverened by laws, not chance.
  This would have everything to do with what you mean by chaos, and what theories regarding it you find compelling.



quote:

  It it is governed by the laws of science (as they actually are, not our current incomplete understanding of them). The gamma wave that stuck a pre humans genes in exactly the right place causing a mutation, leading to modern man, was set on its trajectory billions of years ago, likewise the chain of events that led to the pre human being in exactly the right place started billions of years ago
.

And what if out later-on undrstanding of  "the laws of science" reveals something in direct opposition to your claim?

quote:

 Chaotic systems are deterministic, and behave according to absolute rules procedeing from their starting conditions.  We see things as random, but unless you reject the basis of science, nothing is.  We seem to be hardwired to see randomness, where it doesn't exist.

Clever little turn there, touche, but what do you see as conclusive proof of your Utterly Deterministic Universe hypothesis. I mean, logically, if your hypothesis holds then no proof can be recognized as having probitive value, since anyone who deemed the proof probitive would be doing so not as a result of evaluating the evidence but involuntarily and mechanistically, as a result of that gamma ray you spoke of, right?

quote:

Does a reason require intent?   No, it doesn't

There is so much semantic underbrush here that only by luck could someone be clear on your intent in saying this. Would you like to lay out your preferred notions of "reason" and "intent", illustrating the disjunction you claim? Does "reason" in this sense boil down to "function" for you? Or is it some other way alltogether?

quote:

.  So this is not a proof of a God of some sort.  But if you are an Athiest, absolutly everything was set in the initial conditions of creation

This hardly follows necessarily.
quote:



.  There is an absolute reason (scientific law) for every event.
Another interesting theory, at least I think it is likely to be interesting after I come to understand what you mean when you say "reason" in this context.

quote:

You have to accept a spiritual universe, for things (including the thoughts in our heads) to have any cause other than scientific law.

But you just said that every event has an absolute scientific reason (does reason mean cause, for you?)  Are these spiritual causes redundant, superfluous, or other?.


 
quote:

What other option is there?

Don't you pretty much have to assume that there are an infinite number of other options

quote:

 An Atheistic rejection of scientific law?  I have never encountered a reasonable philosophy that meets those terms.  Anyone got one?


The way you're using "philosophy" in this sentence pretty much puts the said philosphy in charge of weeding out the reasonable from the unreasonable, doesn't it? What standard of reasonableness could stand outside of and above the sort of philosophy your asking for, without being in itself the philosophy you're asking for? This request seems to ascend into the metaphysical ether. Or doesn't it? If not can you explain what standard of reasonableness you would apply to the sort od wholistic, worldview philosophy you seem to be asking for here?  Or have I got you all wrong?

Thanks.








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