RE: Everything Happens For A Reason.

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (Full Version)

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MzMia -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/31/2008 7:49:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 "There is no reason for anything, we live in a chaotic universe governed by chance. However, we appear to be hardwired to see patterns and intent." Actually this is a rejection of Science. Chaos is not random. And it is goverened by laws, not chance. It it is governed by the laws of science (as they actually are, not our current incomplete understanding of them). The gamma wave that stuck a pre humans genes in exactly the right place causing a mutation, leading to modern man, was set on its trajectory billions of years ago, likewise the chain of events that led to the pre human being in exactly the right place started billions of years ago. Chaotic systems are deterministic, and behave according to absolute rules procedeing from their starting conditions. We see things as random, but unless you reject the basis of science, nothing is. We seem to be hardwired to see randomness, where it doesn't exist. Does a reason require intent? No, it doesn't. So this is not a proof of a God of some sort. But if you are an Athiest, absolutly everything was set in the initial conditions of creation. There is an absolute reason (scientific law) for every event. You have to accept a spiritual universe, for things (including the thoughts in our heads) to have any cause other than scientific law. What other option is there? An Atheistic rejection of scientific law? I have never encountered a reasonable philosophy that meets those terms. Anyone got one? [sm=applause.gif] A lot of this, DOES involve spiritual beliefs or the lack of spiritual beliefs. Many fail to understand, that there is no guarantee that YOU will be the one to have the magnificant life, on this earth. MANY people are going to be poor, many people are going to be sad, many people are going to suffer for the majority of their lives, period. Many sad souls spend the majority of their lives unhappy and saying "Why me?" When I often listen to the endless complaining of spoiled Americans, I think of the sidewalk dwellers in Calcutta, India that are born on sidewalks, live their entire lives on sidewalks often as beggars, and die on the sidewalk, to end up in an unmarked pit. Many people have no idea of what real suffering is like, unless we endured something like that or real slavery. concentration camps, etc. Funny thing is, many slaves had STRONG BELIEFS and that is what enabled them to survive. If you don't have a spirtitual or a belief system that can make sense of the universe and life as we know it, I guess you are indeed loss. Sometimes having faith, and a real belief system makes all the difference in the world. [:D]

kdsub -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/31/2008 9:19:17 PM)
I agree with TheHeretic...there is a reason for every happening.... circumstances align ...all for one reason or another. The results of those actions are never random…they are very specific. However the people that are affected may not be aware of the origin of said happenings. It is mind blowing to think that the apple in the Garden of Eden set off a series of actions that through the ages eventually led to my typing this message. Butch

popeye1250 -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/31/2008 9:29:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UncleNasty This is a phrase I've heard used throughout my life. I'm curious how folks here feel about it. Do you believe everything happens for a reason? If so, why? If not, why not? I haven't put this in the poll sections as I'm interested in the discourse. I'm with holding my own views for the time being as I want open and unbiased posts in response. Eventually I'll weigh in. Uncle Nasty Uncle Nasty, (Great handle and profile by the way.) I think sometimes things happen for a reason and sometimes things just happen.

Zensee -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (3/31/2008 9:57:35 PM)
Hi lucky. Still pedaling that Atheistical Predestinative Sciencism snake oil? Good luck with that, man. Would the OP mind defining the term "reason" for the purpose of this discussion? i.e. Direct causation - or predestination - or karmic entanglement? Or something else entirely? quote: ORIGINAL: Gemini1766 It's your position, and you will respect that fact and that we do not agree. I'm trusting this is a response to a particular person, not a blanket ban on discussion. Z.

luckydog1 -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 1:32:06 AM)
Noah, I think you have me wrong. The idea I am discussing is called Determinism, you can look it up, it's not somehting I pulled out of my ass. You really seemed to miss the qualifier of "If you have an Atheistic Universe", that proceded my point. If there is nothing but a scientific athiest univerise, every event, is caused by the preceding conditions with the laws of science (as they actually are, not our currently limited, incomplete understanding of them, I included this phrase in my post I don't know why you missed it). All the way back to the instant of creation. Science does not consider Chaotic systems to be random. They are deterministic, and goverened by unbreakable laws, as is everything. They are very complicated, and many things are affecting each other at the same time, so we can't predict the outcome precisely, but the cause is considered to be the laws of science, only. In an Athiestic paradigm, unless you have an Atheism that rejects science, which I haven't encountered yet. I guess I do consider that a philosphy has to have at least a large degree of interal cohesion to be considered reasonable. I am not an Athiest, nor a follower of any "religion", but I do think there is a spiritual aspect tot the universe. In an Atheist paradigm, every event (including the process that cause us to make choices) is caused by the playing out of the initial conditions of the universe with the laws of Science applied to it. So the reason for every event is the initial conditions(regardless of what caused them to be the way they were, presumably the same issue arrises, set by will or set by preceding conditions), with the laws of science applied.

meatcleaver -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 3:07:10 AM)
Jabber on. I have yet to hear anything coherent for there being a reason for anything. I'm waiting with baited breath for your anouncement to the meaning of life and everything.

meatcleaver -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 3:10:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 "There is no reason for anything, we live in a chaotic universe governed by chance. However, we appear to be hardwired to see patterns and intent." Actually this is a rejection of Science. Chaos is not random. I'm actually aware of that but I was thinking more terms of why one person should have a paino fall on their head and another win the lottery. Unless you know the reason for such events. I'm waiting for your wisdom and if that wisdom is to do with god, why is he so cruel to some innocent child while rewarding some thug?

meatcleaver -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 3:23:22 AM)
Noah, do you have many friends? Because I would imagine if people were sat around a table having a drink with you and someone gave a general reply and then got a pseudo-Socratic answer like you have just given, people would begin to give you a wide birth. If you have something to say, say it but be a little more concise. I'm afraid I just don't have the time and inclination to read all your post because it stopped being a witty put down by the end of the first line and just appear to drift into a facetious yawn. I don't mind a facetious reply, I often find them quite funny and I don't mind being put down but please, keep it short. Brevity helps wit.

eroticangel -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 4:11:25 AM)
i think it is just a phrase that is tossed around when we don't know what else to say....in the past 5 months both my daughters miscarried babies.....i remember saying that to both of them....as we all sat and cried, words kinda just failed me so i said...well you know, they say everything happens for a reason....both of them looked at me, one said what possible reason could there be for this to happen...i had no reason. Then when it happened to my other daughter the same words left my mouth....at the time she nodded thru her tears and pain...for 5 months i tried to find a reason they went thru that...and ya know what...i'll be damned if i can figure it out...there is no reason...it just is....that is what life is about...we just live...no rhyme or reason...it just is!

BossyShoeBitch -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 5:32:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick quote: ORIGINAL: Gemini1766 We all have our own opinions on it Cali. Best if we all simply agree to disagree. I see no reason at all for us to be at odds over what ultimately are personally held beliefs. Gem Love, that wasn't to you, I should have put "fast reply" on it. The person who said the phrase in question to me, as I was laying on a gurney, with a morphine drip, bleeding, losing my unborn baby, well, let's just say if I had more strength at that moment they would have lost one or more appendages. I see absolutely NO VALUE in saying it to someone, as it only serves to minimize and trivialize whatever pain (emotional, mental, and/or physical) they are experiencing at that moment. Cali (who feels she should send Gem a nekkie pic or something now as a peace offering) "Trust in good intent" Oftentimes stupid shit comes out of the mouths of well intentioned people... I get completely tongue tied when confronted with the tragedy of a friend, moreso with an acquaintance. When my Mother passed in '91 I realized that most of the time people had no clue what to say and therefore many would wind up spouting well meaning catch phrases such as this in an effort to be comforting.. When Jews sit "shivah" (7 days of dedicated mourning after the death of a family member) visitors paying their respects are not supposed to say anything to the mourners, unless the mourners begin the conversation. The understanding is that their presence there is as a source of comfort and not to have the mourners feel they have to be "engaging" in conversation in any way.. That being said, remember that GOOD things happen for a reason too! I came to this site last Jan looking for "educational wank fodder " and found the love of my life.. So, yeah I actually do believe it...

UncleNasty -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 8:45:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Uncle Nasty, (Great handle and profile by the way.) I think sometimes things happen for a reason and sometimes things just happen. Thanks for the kudos popeye. I picked the name for several reasons. One of which is that I appreciate humor in life - and in the "lifestyle." More then one sub/slave has told me they can't say it out loud without giggling a little. I think its easier to start with a little humor and move towards serious than the other way round. Personally I like the blend. Uncle Nasty

UncleNasty -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 9:19:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee Would the OP mind defining the term "reason" for the purpose of this discussion? i.e. Direct causation - or predestination - or karmic entanglement? Or something else entirely? Thank you for asking. I considered adding more clarity as the responses derivated a bit. And now, lo and behold, someone asked directly. Predeterminsim, invisible hand of God, master puppeteer kind of thing. Is there a larger force controlling the events in our lives and in the universe. That is the context of my question. Uncle Nasty (its OK if you giggle)

luckydog1 -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 9:50:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 "There is no reason for anything, we live in a chaotic universe governed by chance. However, we appear to be hardwired to see patterns and intent." Actually this is a rejection of Science. Chaos is not random. I'm actually aware of that but I was thinking more terms of why one person should have a paino fall on their head and another win the lottery. Unless you know the reason for such events. I'm waiting for your wisdom and if that wisdom is to do with god, why is he so cruel to some innocent child while rewarding some thug? So you are well aware that what you said was 100% incorrect. did you not read this passage.... "In an Atheist paradigm, every event (including the process that cause us to make choices) is caused by the playing out of the initial conditions of the universe with the laws of Science applied to it. So the reason for every event is the initial conditions(regardless of what caused them to be the way they were, presumably the same issue arrises, set by will or set by preceding conditions), with the laws of science applied. If you have an Atheistic world.

philosophy -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 10:12:56 AM)
...does everything happen for a reason? Yes, unless we're going to suggest that cause and effect don't mean anything. Do those reasons have to to do with a choice on the part that the event is happening to? No, unless we're going to suggest that all rape victims, all terminally ill babies and all pedestrians hit by a car had it coming.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 10:42:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee Hi lucky. Still pedaling that Atheistical Predestinative Sciencism snake oil? Good luck with that, man. Would the OP mind defining the term "reason" for the purpose of this discussion? i.e. Direct causation - or predestination - or karmic entanglement? Or something else entirely? quote: ORIGINAL: Gemini1766 It's your position, and you will respect that fact and that we do not agree. I'm trusting this is a response to a particular person, not a blanket ban on discussion. Z. Brother Zen, his trying to turn every thread on here into a moronic argument about "determinism" is why I have him on ignore. Namaste

luckydog1 -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 4:28:11 PM)
Every thread, huh? Zen also anounced he was blocking me, but didn't seem to follow through. Sorry, the idea has you so upset.

Noah -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 6:27:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Noah, I think you have me wrong. The idea I am discussing is called Determinism, you can look it up, it's not somehting I pulled out of my ass. Mmhmm. I understood you and I think I have a good basic grasp of the theory of Determinism as well as its current popularity. quote: You really seemed to miss the qualifier of "If you have an Atheistic Universe", that proceded my point. No. I took note of it. quote: If there is nothing but a scientific athiest univerise, every event, is caused by the preceding conditions with the laws of science (as they actually are, not our currently limited, incomplete understanding of them, I included this phrase in my post I don't know why you missed it). All the way back to the instant of creation. But don't you see the problems inherent in this presentation? First, there are an infinite number of possible atheistic theories of how things stand, which don't rely, as yours does, on your notion of Determinsim. Many have been propounded, many more could be. You happen to be someone who believes in the scientific theory of Cause and Effect. Others (within the orthodoxy of science) see it as superfluous. Cause and Effect can be stripped away from all the other scientific theories without sacrificing any part of the awesome power of Science to predict physical events to very high degrees of probability. This is what I take Science to be about. Your position also seems to rely on a theory of Time which is perfectly linear and unidirectional. It is a common enough theory, and useful to lots and lots of purposes, but there is empirical evidence which can reasonably be seen to refute this notion of Time. If Time isn't (as Science may show us very clearly at some point) then your whole edifice is in great peril, probably doomed to a thoroughgoing revision, at least. You, wisely, I think, make room for revision of scientific theories, but seemingly not enough room to allow for Science to revise things like your notions of Linear, Unidirectional Time and Causality. quote: Science does not consider Chaotic systems to be random. They are deterministic, and goverened by unbreakable laws, as is everything. They are very complicated, and many things are affecting each other at the same time, so we can't predict the outcome precisely, but the cause is considered to be the laws of science, only. To review, this presents one set of scientific theories among many possible ones. Science is not a monolith speaking with one voice. It is an ongoing disputation. Speaking strictly, I don't think very many people impute "cause" to "the laws of science". The laws of science after all are after all no more than careful notations scientists have made about regularities observed. The "laws"--and the term is metaphorical at most--hardly cause things. Look a it this way. Even if you want to stick with Cause and Effect language (which is fine by me,) when you let go of your coffee cup in mid air, what causes it to drop? Gravity? Or the Law of Gravity? It is gravity, isn't it? This is almost completely a semantic issue, but not completely semantic once you realize what a formative effect on our thinking and perception is had by the ways we habitually characterize things. I think we would agree that a worthy scientist wants an unobstructed view. Poor habits of perception can obstruct the view of whatever it is that we behold. quote: In an Athiestic paradigm, unless you have an Atheism that rejects science, which I haven't encountered yet. I don't follow you here. quote: I guess I do consider that a philosphy has to have at least a large degree of interal cohesion to be considered reasonable I think that's a fine quality too. quote: I am not an Athiest, nor a follower of any "religion", but I do think there is a spiritual aspect tot the universe. In an Atheist paradigm, every event (including the process that cause us to make choices) is caused by the playing out of the initial conditions of the universe with the laws of Science applied to it. So the reason for every event is the initial conditions(regardless of what caused them to be the way they were, presumably the same issue arrises, set by will or set by preceding conditions), with the laws of science applied. Very well said. "In AN atheistic paradigm ... " Meanwhile in any number of OTHER atheistic paradigms your limitations will not be seen to obtain in the same way, or whatsoever. There ar an unlimited number of paradigms and possible paradigms which your overview neglects to consider. I did give you a careful reading, luckydog, and I appreciate your giving the opportunity to clarify and explain a few things left unclear by my earlier attempt.

Noah -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 6:48:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Noah, do you have many friends? Because I would imagine if people were sat around a table having a drink with you and someone gave a general reply and then got a pseudo-Socratic answer like you have just given, people would begin to give you a wide birth . Plenty of people give me a wide berth, meat. I'm okay with that. The friends I would discuss matters like this are people willing to consider ideas in their depth. I understand that this isn't to everyone's taste. quote: If you have something to say, say it but be a little more concise. I'm afraid I just don't have the time and inclination to read all your post because it stopped being a witty put down by the end of the first line and just appear to drift into a facetious yawn. I don't mind a facetious reply, I often find them quite funny and I don't mind being put down but please, keep it short. Brevity helps wit. Meat, your presentation had some pretty far-reaching entailments. I hadn't seen any indication that you had considered some of the things entailed by your "concise" statement of beliefs. But unless you're willing to divorce yourself from reason I think it is necessary to confront the entailments of one's beliefs. Previously, perhaps you just didn't realize all that was entailed in what you were claiming. Now having been presented with it you offer that you lack the time and inclination to acknowledge what is entailed by your beliefs, or even contest the claim. It may be that you just don't care that much about whether your beliefs are, for instance, coherent. That's certainly an orientation you can take. Similarly you can try to divert a critique of your ideas with a back-handed insult to the person who brought it. That's another common enough gambit (although as it happens not common among my friends.) In any case, your refusal to confront a carefully presented criticism of your views reminds me a lot of a criticism often levelled at people who seem to found their world view on scripture. All that said, if your beliefs give you the comfort you seek I'll respect your choice to hold them.

Zensee -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 6:56:36 PM)
Thanks for chiming in Noah but luckydog has had this same discussion in four threads now and no appeal to reason has been enough to dissuade him from the belief that all he has to do is make up a label or cherry pick a definition to establish an unassailable position. His central terms, atheism, science and determinism, remain conveniently fluid to slip through all rational obstacles and plaster over the inherent flaws in his theory. Goal posts on wheels, so to speak. Z.

sharainks -> RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. (4/1/2008 7:16:08 PM)
I believe that there is some reason things happen. I believe that God is the good force in life and Satan is the negative force. I believe that because I'm a Christian. I don't ask that others believe as I do. Somewhat like a Native American saying about which dog is the stronger-I believe it is the one you feed the most who has the most power in your life. In my life I've found that the things that hurt the most also improve you the most. People have choices about how they want to use the experiences life gives them. They can use them to become a more understanding and caring person. They can use them to become a bitter and closed off person. Without both good and bad to temper us we would be bereft of the kind of depth that makes a person interesting. I also don't blame God when bad things happen. The Bible says that Satan is the lord of this world. The kingdom of God, or heaven, is where Satan has no power. That is not something we will experience here. I've always found it interesting that people want to blame God for the bad stuff. In a sense people are a lot like teenagers that way. They only want "the folks" when they can be of use to them and to heck with them otherwise. "Leave me alone and let me do what I want." A lot of parents say OK and I think at times God does the same. Just my take on the whole thing. Your milage may vary.

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