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RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/1/2008 11:22:58 PM

luckydog1

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Well Noah, in fact I never made any such assertions about time. What we see in particle accelators appears to be particles flowing backward through time, which seems to indicate that the future is already written. And relative speed causes distortions in time, that has been shown experimentaly.

I am very aware that what we call the law of Gravity is just a way of trying to explain and quantify the force we call gravity, and how it will interact with other forces and matter. I am not confusing what we call the law (which is why I keep using the term as it really is not our currently limited understanding) with the actually force. Most of your post seems to be agiant things I never said, nor even imlied.

Ok do you have a reasonably coherent Atheistic Paradigm that rejects the basic concept of Science. Name some of these unlimited paradigms. Please teach me, cite or describe a reasonably coherent one.

I guess I have to go through this again. By Science I mean

"knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world." http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/science-definition.html

It is true that term science applies to any organized body of thought. And grammatically it is correct to call Catholic Theology a Science, as well as to refer to the Science of crystal magic, but that is not what I mean, and neither of those are Atheistic paradigms.

" In an Athiestic paradigm, unless you have an Atheism that rejects science, which I haven't encountered yet."
I don't follow you here.

I mean an Athiestic paradigm that rejects the idea that the interactions of the natural forces and matter/energy are goverened by laws. I suppose one could exist, and have asked several people to give me one. Can you do it? Simply saying there are an unlimited number of them doesn't cut it for me. Name one.

Also (regarding the deterministic nature of Chaotic systems) "To review, this presents one set of scientific theories among many possible ones. Science is not a monolith speaking with one voice. It is an ongoing disputation. Please cite some peer reviewed sceintist who claims otherwise. Teach me something. Honestly, the idea that everything (including chaotic systems) is governed by laws is basic to Science.

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 4/1/2008 11:25:21 PM >

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Post #: 61

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 1:18:31 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

"There is no reason for anything, we live in a chaotic universe governed by chance. However, we appear to be hardwired to see patterns and intent."

Actually this is a rejection of Science. Chaos is not random.

I'm actually aware of that but I was thinking more terms of why one person should have a paino fall on their head and another win the lottery.

Unless you know the reason for such events. I'm waiting for your wisdom and if that wisdom is to do with god, why is he so cruel to some innocent child while rewarding some thug?

So you are well aware that what you said was 100% incorrect. did you not read this passage....

"In an Atheist paradigm, every event (including the process that cause us to make choices) is caused by the playing out of the initial conditions of the universe with the laws of Science applied to it. So the reason for every event is the initial conditions(regardless of what caused them to be the way they were, presumably the same issue arrises, set by will or set by preceding conditions), with the laws of science applied. If you have an Atheistic world.

These type of threads always end up being full of pedantic posts. But let us assume we are having this debate because we exist. I made the assumption the OP meant the events in her life, not the begiining of the world and everything.

You obviously belive in an interventionist god who I assume you claim to be benigh, no, maybe you are an old testement fanatic and believe in a vengeful, wrathful god who loathes his creation, demands to be feared and praised and who orders those who fear him to commit genocide against those of his creation he has taken a dislike too. Some god to aspire to and praise.

Or maybe you prefer the new testement version of god, who is loving and benigh but does nothing about the deseases and disasters of his own making that keep blighting the lives of the people he claims to love. But then maybe it isn't really god's fault, maybe he's just schizophrenic. Again, some god to aspire to and praise.

I don't know where you got your quote from but you do know it's bollocks don't you? The point is Lucky, no ones god, interventionist spirit, force, call it what you will, stands up to a modicum of examination unless this god lit the blue touch paper and stood back and watched the fireworks. In such a scenario, one them has to explain god, which is the same problem as an atheist has in explaining the lack of a god. Well and atheist only has to explain the lack of god, the religious has to explain god and the reason this being created such a cruel and apparently arbitary universe where sentient creatures live short, cruel brutish lives when this god could simply click his fingers and create a heaven on earth instead. Don't say it is to teach us something because this god could click his fingers and have taught us evertything in a moment. In regards to god, if I have no evidence of the an elephant being in the same room as me, I'll assume the elephant isn't there. Obviously, you see the four walls of the room as evidence that the elephant exists.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/2/2008 1:20:32 AM >

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Post #: 62

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 2:13:00 AM

eyesopened

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Not every event has reason (a cause is not a reason in my opinion) and not every event is by chance. However, i look at tragedy in a different way. Many people would lament that 'why would a Just and Loving God allow........?" and in my mind i see God saying "No, why did YOU allow......?" We as a species have the potential to cure illness, not just manufacture a bunch of pills to treat symptoms but to actually cure illness. But when was the last time an illness was cured and wiped from the face of the earth? We have as a species the ability to fix the hole in the ozone layer, but we don't. We have as a species the ability to avert many tragedies, but we don't. The sin of omission is greater than the sins of commission.

On the other hand, i believe the Universe allows tragedy as an opportunity for us as humans to find our courage, our compassion, our humanity, our love for each other. We see how a society, a people, a community comes together to help each other after a hurricane or a tsunami or an act of war. When we don't do good when the opportunity arises, what does that say? Why can't we act that way toward each other every day and not just when something bad happens? Perhaps, if we look around, we can see an elderly person who needs help getting their groceries to their car, or a lonely person who could use a friend. These Random events are opportunities for us to do something good. Maybe that is the lesson in those kinds of random events.

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Post #: 63

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 3:31:02 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Not every event has reason (a cause is not a reason in my opinion) and not every event is by chance. However, i look at tragedy in a different way. Many people would lament that 'why would a Just and Loving God allow........?" and in my mind i see God saying "No, why did YOU allow......?" We as a species have the potential to cure illness, not just manufacture a bunch of pills to treat symptoms but to actually cure illness. But when was the last time an illness was cured and wiped from the face of the earth? We have as a species the ability to fix the hole in the ozone layer, but we don't. We have as a species the ability to avert many tragedies, but we don't. The sin of omission is greater than the sins of commission.

On the other hand, i believe the Universe allows tragedy as an opportunity for us as humans to find our courage, our compassion, our humanity, our love for each other. We see how a society, a people, a community comes together to help each other after a hurricane or a tsunami or an act of war. When we don't do good when the opportunity arises, what does that say? Why can't we act that way toward each other every day and not just when something bad happens? Perhaps, if we look around, we can see an elderly person who needs help getting their groceries to their car, or a lonely person who could use a friend. These Random events are opportunities for us to do something good. Maybe that is the lesson in those kinds of random events.

So you believe god is cruel to make us love each other?

America is the most religious country in the world but it doesn't appear to be doing much about its poor while its spending its money exporting its vengence around the world. It seems America is doing gods work in making us all love each other.

My guess is that belief in god is a crotch and used as a personal insurance policy so when they get to the other place everyone can say, it wasn't my fault, I went to church every Sunday to praise you! Or whatever any other equivalent religion does.

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Post #: 64

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 3:50:13 AM

eyesopened

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Not every event has reason (a cause is not a reason in my opinion) and not every event is by chance. However, i look at tragedy in a different way. Many people would lament that 'why would a Just and Loving God allow........?" and in my mind i see God saying "No, why did YOU allow......?" We as a species have the potential to cure illness, not just manufacture a bunch of pills to treat symptoms but to actually cure illness. But when was the last time an illness was cured and wiped from the face of the earth? We have as a species the ability to fix the hole in the ozone layer, but we don't. We have as a species the ability to avert many tragedies, but we don't. The sin of omission is greater than the sins of commission.

On the other hand, i believe the Universe allows tragedy as an opportunity for us as humans to find our courage, our compassion, our humanity, our love for each other. We see how a society, a people, a community comes together to help each other after a hurricane or a tsunami or an act of war. When we don't do good when the opportunity arises, what does that say? Why can't we act that way toward each other every day and not just when something bad happens? Perhaps, if we look around, we can see an elderly person who needs help getting their groceries to their car, or a lonely person who could use a friend. These Random events are opportunities for us to do something good. Maybe that is the lesson in those kinds of random events.

So you believe god is cruel to make us love each other?

America is the most religious country in the world but it doesn't appear to be doing much about its poor while its spending its money exporting its vengence around the world. It seems America is doing gods work in making us all love each other.

My guess is that belief in god is a crotch and used as a personal insurance policy so when they get to the other place everyone can say, it wasn't my fault, I went to church every Sunday to praise you! Or whatever any other equivalent religion does.

Ugh... i really just posted my opinion. i know you are one who hates the very thought of religion. however i did not say God CAUSES tragedy but simply does not intervene to avert it. WE are the custodians of the planet. If one does not believe in a supernatural being, then who could we possibly blame for tragedy? I say, even if you believe in a Higher Power or whatever, we should look to ourselves first. It's cool to never have to take responsibility for anything. If even the atheists would take some responsibility to care about our fellow humans, our earth, our collective lives, maybe greed would not overshadow compassion.

Maybe look at my point in a differnt view. In order to have an immune system we first have to be exposed to illness, germs, etc. Sort of the 'that which does not kill us makes us stronger' thing.

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Post #: 65

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 4:01:56 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

WE are the custodians of the planet. If one does not believe in a supernatural being, then who could we possibly blame for tragedy?

Maybe look at my point in a differnt view. In order to have an immune system we first have to be exposed to illness, germs, etc. Sort of the 'that which does not kill us makes us stronger' thing.

There is no one to blame for natural disasters, unless there is some human cause further down the line like a lot of flooding and landslides due to deforestation.

God didn't have to create deseases but he did, no doubt to decrease the surplus population.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/2/2008 4:02:31 AM >

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Post #: 66

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 4:12:57 AM

eyesopened

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

WE are the custodians of the planet. If one does not believe in a supernatural being, then who could we possibly blame for tragedy?

Maybe look at my point in a differnt view. In order to have an immune system we first have to be exposed to illness, germs, etc. Sort of the 'that which does not kill us makes us stronger' thing.

There is no one to blame for natural disasters, unless there is some human cause further down the line like a lot of flooding and landslides due to deforestation.

God didn't have to create deseases but he did, no doubt to decrease the surplus population.

The OP asked for opinions. i gave mine. mine is not less valid than yours. i fully understand that some folks would rather be right than happy would rather see only their own view than to accept that others may have an equally valid although opposite view. If we all had the same opinions life would be pretty darn boring. The Zen of it is, without darkness, how would we know when it is light?

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Post #: 67

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 4:25:41 AM

meatcleaver

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No, your opinion is no less valid than mine. Of course, evolution has not caused our brains to develope in such a way to be capable of answering such questions, it has just caused us to develope in such a way we can survive in niche in nature. I am just curious why people seem to have a need to believe in an intervetionist god, a none interventionist god being largely irrelevent to the debate, except in regards to the inception of the universe but most people's gods are interventionist.

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Post #: 68

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 4:35:04 AM

eyesopened

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

No, your opinion is no less valid than mine. Of course, evolution has not caused our brains to develope in such a way to be capable of answering such questions, it has just caused us to develope in such a way we can survive in niche in nature. I am just curious why people seem to have a need to believe in an intervetionist god, a none interventionist god being largely irrelevent to the debate, except in regards to the inception of the universe but most people's gods are interventionist.

i could never and would never comment on other people's gods. my god only intervenes when i ask but more often than not my god says "Hey, I just made this stuff, it's up to you to take care of it. I'll advise you, I'll comfort you, I'll do what any good Parent would do but I'm not going to bail you out of every mess you make." YMMV

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Post #: 69

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 4:59:03 AM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

No, your opinion is no less valid than mine. Of course, evolution has not caused our brains to develope in such a way to be capable of answering such questions, it has just caused us to develope in such a way we can survive in niche in nature. I am just curious why people seem to have a need to believe in an intervetionist god, a none interventionist god being largely irrelevent to the debate, except in regards to the inception of the universe but most people's gods are interventionist.

i could never and would never comment on other people's gods. my god only intervenes when i ask but more often than not my god says "Hey, I just made this stuff, it's up to you to take care of it. I'll advise you, I'll comfort you, I'll do what any good Parent would do but I'm not going to bail you out of every mess you make." YMMV

I agree with all you posted.
I am constantly amused at non-believers that spend a lot of time
attacking, criticizing and complaining about a GOD that they don't even believe in.
Certain religions explain how we lost grace, and that is why we die, suffer, etc.
Not even going there.......
I am just glad that I understand, and everything in life happens for a reason.
It is not even meant for humans to attempt to understand all the "reasons".

Some reasons are good, some reasons are not good, some reasons are fair, some are not fair,
when you understand this concept, life sure gets easier

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Post #: 70

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 5:01:30 AM

MzMia

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**Public service announcement**
Sorry to have to tell you this, but LIFE is not ALWAYS fair.
Horrible things happen to the most wonderful people.

You want to hear a story about a man named Jesus that was nailed on the cross?
I don't think his story is hardly "fair".

It is what it is, deal with it, or don't deal with it, but you can not make it fair.

Peace

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/2/2008 5:04:46 AM >

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Post #: 71

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 5:05:47 AM

adoracat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

**Public service announcement**
Sorry to have to tell you this, but LIFE is not ALWAYS fair.
Horrible things happen to the most wonderful people.

You want to hear a story about a man named Jesus that was nailed on the cross?
I don't think his story is hardly "fair".

It is what it is, deal with it, or don't deal with it, but you can not make it fair.

Peace

you know...i've been telling the imps that since they were old enough to wail "its not faaaiiirrrr!!!"

life isnt fair. get used to that idea fast.

kitten

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 72

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 6:22:55 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I am constantly amused at non-believers that spend a lot of time
attacking, criticizing and complaining about a GOD that they don't even believe in.

There is nothing amusing about people willing to kill and die for their precious god and taking a whole load of other people with them and I'm not necessarily talking about muslim fanatics either but your loopy president and all those idiot fundementalists that back him.

Irrational belief is something worth exposing as the idiot thinking it is because the loving god costs needless lives and before lucky gets on to Stalin and Hitler (who incidently believed in god and according to one credible source, considered himself to be doing gods work in getting rid of the Jews), there is no accounting for mad men but intelligent men that believe in the irrational are just as bad.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/2/2008 6:26:02 AM >

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Post #: 73

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 10:13:28 AM

luckydog1

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These type of threads always end up being full of pedantic posts. But let us assume we are having this debate because we exist. I made the assumption the OP meant the events in her life, not the begiining of the world and everything.

Why would you assume that her life is not part of everything. As an atheist, you really can't.

Hence you getting angry and blathering about what you assume I must be.

I and my personal views are not the topic here.

Explain to me how her life and the events in it, are not part of creation and everything. Why would she be seperate from the rest of creation? In an Atheistic paradigm.

For the 50th time. This concept is in no way a proof of God, nor does it imply Will to the setting of initial conditions. Works both ways

I am noting that several of the evangelical Atheists on these board get very upset at the idea (which really is basic the philosophy of Science). They feel a need to throw insults, get personal, publically block, ect.

But they refuse to explain why a person be would seperate or different than anything else in creation, they just get mad. Very interesting to note.

Meat we have been through this before. You brag that at 8 years old you decided and never gave a serious thought to the idea of theology. Its quite obvious. It's rather like a literal creationist screaming "my grandmother was not a monkey!!" Of course not, nor does the theory evolution claim it to be so.

Why would the events of a persons life be different than any other events?

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RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 10:19:16 AM

CalifChick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eroticangel
i think it is just a phrase that is tossed around when we don't know what else to say....in the past 5 months both my daughters miscarried babies.....i remember saying that to both of them....as we all sat and cried, words kinda just failed me

I hope they have forgiven you, angel. A lot of daughters I have spoken to in my mentoring have not been able to do so, or it has changed their relationship forever.

One thing I tell people is, when you don't know what to say, a simple "I'm so sorry" is enough. If people would just stop there, it would be fine, but they try to fill the silence and that's when they get in trouble.

God forbid it happens to one of your daughters again, but if it does, please try out that phrase. Hugs to you for losing grandchildren, and hugs to your daughters for losing children.

Cali

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RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 10:25:13 AM

luckydog1

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Got to love the way Meat says what my point is, then argues it. Seems to be his regular tactic, and I do suppose it is much easier, than debating people's actuall positions. He must do it because he is so secure in his thinking....

Never once have I said Hitler was an Atheist.

However Marxism (which includes Stalin, Lenin and Mao) is properly called Dialectical Materialism (thats what Marx called it). So it is a form a Materialism (which is Atheist by definition). And has tens (if not hundreds) of millions of bodies pilled up in a century.

"there is no accounting for mad men but intelligent men that believe in the irrational are just as bad. "

And when you explain why the events in people's lives are different than any other sort ot of event, you won't be positing irrational ideas.

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 4/2/2008 10:42:27 AM >

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Post #: 76

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 10:33:35 AM

sambamanslilgirl

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if you've said that to me 8yrs ago after my teen's accident, i wouldn't have believed you right away. however now that i look back at how she survived the traumatic experience despite knowing she shouldn't have, i really do believe that it did happen for a reason. there's a reason why that train hit her when it did that day ...perhaps it was part of a some divine plan - who knows. the fact remains she's alive and making a steady recovery.

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Post #: 77

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 10:42:07 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I am constantly amused at non-believers that spend a lot of time
attacking, criticizing and complaining about a GOD that they don't even believe in.

(minor hijack)

It's not the belief in God i object to, it's the way that some people use it as an excuse to not take responsibility for things. Now, i'm not accusing you of anything, but there are numerous examples of this. Take the couple who prefer to pray for a sick child rather than give them the medicine they need. The way that religion, or a belief in God, is used to justify a war of aggression. Those are the things i object to. One's faith is ones own. One's actions, however, are open to debate.

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Post #: 78

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 11:08:34 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

**Public service announcement**
Sorry to have to tell you this, but LIFE is not ALWAYS fair.
Horrible things happen to the most wonderful people.

You want to hear a story about a man named Jesus that was nailed on the cross?
I don't think his story is hardly "fair".

It is what it is, deal with it, or don't deal with it, but you can not make it fair.

Peace

Case in point...Horrible things do happen to the most wonderful of people. Let's use Jesus as one of the examples. Every action that he took ultimately led to his demise. The story is in fact incredibly fair....He got exactly what he wanted. The ends justified the means

In other words Jesus is a poor example when trying to illuminate the point of something being "unfair."

A kid dying of cancer...Now that hardly seems fair.

In fact many of Jesus' actions, depending upon whether one is a consequentialist, deontologis or a virtual ethicist, might be viewed as possibly being a bit manipulative if not completely dishonest.

mistoferin recently started a thread about one being responsible for their actions...Why is it that we are so ready to completely exonerate Jesus when in fact he is probably more than duplicitous when it comes to contributing towards his own demise?

Talk amongst yourselves.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/2/2008 11:09:35 AM >

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Post #: 79

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 11:14:38 AM

kittinSol

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Actually, Jesus was just an other Palestinian independentist. They were as common then as they are now... he was one of many who wanted the Roman Empire "OUT". He was a little more of a pain in the ass than the others, which is why he remained in popular memory.

The whole thing about sacrificial lamb and all that came from a particularly zealous sect of submissive proselytes who wanted to promote their latest dungeon toys. Their line of crosses, nails and whips became particularly successful in Judea's "specialist" stores thereafter.

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