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RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 11:19:54 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Actually, Jesus was just an other Palestinian independentist. They were as common then as they are now... he was one of many who wanted the Roman Empire "OUT". He was a little more of a pain in the ass than the others, which is why he remained in popular memory.

The whole thing about sacrificial lamb and all that came from a particularly zealous sect of submissive proselytes who wanted to promote their latest dungeon toys. Their line of crosses, nails and whips became particularly successful in Judea's "specialist" stores thereafter.

Kittin love your holes....But the J-dude was a little more proactive in his approach...He wasn't dug by the Jews and the Romans were not impressed much by the lad either....Then when you combine the whole omnipresent and omniscient shit into the mix you really start to see the magnitude of the clusterfuck that was Jesus Christ.

How could Judas betray him?....When every fucking thing led to one ultimate conclusion. Errrr...If you believe in that kind of shit.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/2/2008 11:26:59 AM >

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Post #: 81

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 11:27:00 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Kittin love your holes....But the J-dude was a little more proactive in his approach...He wasn't dug by the Jews and the Romans were not impressed much by the lad either....Then when you combine the whole omnipresent and omniscient shit into the mix you really start to see the magnitude of the clusterfuck that was Jesus Christ.

How could Judas betray him?....When every fucking thing led to the ultimate conclusion. Errrr...If you believe in that kind of shit.

The other theory is that Judas was actually God's man. Judas is the one who was really sacrificed, as his name will be forever dragged in the dirt by simple minded, gullible folks.

There's a whole theory about this out there, based on apocryphal texts that have been conveniently kept under the rug by Xstian leaders. It's even called The Gospel of Judas.

Judas is the real Jesus. Jesus was just a decoy used by the Eternal.

PS: my holes, your tube.

If you're into fairytales.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/2/2008 11:28:17 AM >

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Post #: 82

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 12:02:40 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

If you're into fairytales.

Fairy tails...Hobbit tails....kittin tails....You lift it up high enough, I'll fuck it.

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Post #: 83

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 5:28:37 PM

MzMia

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Joined: 7/30/2004
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Hummm, I am glad my faith is strong and can't be swayed or I would
be in such trouble.
lol, I have to read many posts as simply "comic relief" and keep going.
To each their own.

Everyone ultimately is gonna serve someone, I am happy in my choice.

I hope everyone here, is happy with whatever they believe or don't believe in.
Peace

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/2/2008 5:29:24 PM >

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Post #: 84

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 9:43:12 PM

angelbluewingsz

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and if a bear poops in a forrest but no one is around to smell it, did the bear really poop?

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Post #: 85

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/2/2008 10:23:12 PM

Zensee

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Joined: 9/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Every thread, huh? Zen also anounced he was blocking me, but didn't seem to follow through. Sorry, the idea has you so upset.

I never said I was blocking you. Someone has to keep an eye on you. My beef is that no matter how many people (on what is it, four different threads now?) point out the logical, factual and rhetorical flaws in your theory you keep repeating the hypothesis as if it were established fact. Yes - everything IS part of everything else and it's all natural mechanisms behaving lawfully, but that does NOT mean events are predestined. End of argument.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I am constantly amused at non-believers that spend a lot of time
attacking, criticizing and complaining about a GOD that they don't even believe in.

I love God. I have dozens of them, in all shapes and sizes and genders.

I am not at all concerned with the God that I don't believe in. I am concerned with the Gods that a lot of other people do believe in because their belief affects me directly and mostly negatively. And it's not their particular flavour of God but their blind belief which is the real concern, because it has been and continues to be a pole up the collective ass of humanity.

Right now, thanks to secular democracies, religion has lost some of it historical power to affect the operation of nations and the rights of individuals, but rest assured, given the minutest opportunity to impose their beliefs on others, by law or by force, the fundies of all and any stripes, will drag us back to the friggin' dark ages, yesterday, and their middle of the road cousins and the festive believers will let it happen.

That's worth criticizing.

Z.

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Post #: 86

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/3/2008 1:08:44 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

These type of threads always end up being full of pedantic posts. But let us assume we are having this debate because we exist. I made the assumption the OP meant the events in her life, not the begiining of the world and everything.

Why would you assume that her life is not part of everything. As an atheist, you really can't.

Hence you getting angry and blathering about what you assume I must be.

I and my personal views are not the topic here.

Explain to me how her life and the events in it, are not part of creation and everything. Why would she be seperate from the rest of creation? In an Atheistic paradigm.

For the 50th time. This concept is in no way a proof of God, nor does it imply Will to the setting of initial conditions. Works both ways

I am noting that several of the evangelical Atheists on these board get very upset at the idea (which really is basic the philosophy of Science). They feel a need to throw insults, get personal, publically block, ect.

But they refuse to explain why a person be would seperate or different than anything else in creation, they just get mad. Very interesting to note.

Meat we have been through this before. You brag that at 8 years old you decided and never gave a serious thought to the idea of theology. Its quite obvious. It's rather like a literal creationist screaming "my grandmother was not a monkey!!" Of course not, nor does the theory evolution claim it to be so.

Why would the events of a persons life be different than any other events?

lucky, life is an event like everything else. Maybe we are talking at cross purposes but I thought we were arguing about an interventionist intelligence at work in life or not. A god that is seen as interventionist who arbitary intervenes in life which I assume every one who prays believes in or why would they pray, rather makes free will a farce.

As for your nonsensical quote I mean an Athiestic paradigm that rejects the idea that the interactions of the natural forces and matter/energy are goverened by laws. Atheists don't reject interactions of natural forces, they reject the notion of supernatural forces and particulary interventionist ones. Of course you aren't so dumb not to know but you can carry on pretending you are if it fullfills your needs.

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Post #: 87

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/3/2008 1:11:25 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Actually, Jesus was just an other Palestinian independentist. They were as common then as they are now... he was one of many who wanted the Roman Empire "OUT". He was a little more of a pain in the ass than the others, which is why he remained in popular memory.

The whole thing about sacrificial lamb and all that came from a particularly zealous sect of submissive proselytes who wanted to promote their latest dungeon toys. Their line of crosses, nails and whips became particularly successful in Judea's "specialist" stores thereafter.

Ssssh You could ruin a whole religion.

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Post #: 88

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/3/2008 1:27:11 AM

luckydog1

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"My beef is that no matter how many people (on what is it, four different threads now?) point out the logical, factual and rhetorical flaws in your theory you keep repeating the hypothesis as if it were established fact. Yes - everything IS part of everything else and it's all natural mechanisms behaving lawfully, but that does NOT mean events are predestined. End of argument. "

The thing is that neither you nor anyone has. I have not used the word "predestined" a single time, for a specific reason. I find it odd that you have to resort to such a lame a tactic as changing my terms. That's not a logical or factual refutation. That you think it is, says a lot about your concept of Science and Logic.

If "it's all natural mechanisms behaving lawfully", how can there be anything but the one lawfull result? All covers EVERYTHING doesn't it.

A "rehetorical refutation" simply means because you say so. Why don't you actually give a possibly mechanism for it to be so. Actually give a logical or factual refutation. This is just an idea, I am musing, I don't believe it.

Refute,--- that in a Materialist Universe, every event is the lawfull result of Matter/Energy interacting with Forces (including those we don't understand or perhaps even know about), all behaving in a lawfull manner, which causes the system to be Deterministic. This includes every event, including the processes in our minds. Does not require that a will/God set it up. Does not mean we can actually predict next weeks Lotto, but theoretically if we had "All the Data" (which seems impossible) we could. The Numbers will be the result of interactions preceding from the initial conditions of the Universe. Even if something from outside our Universe, intersects and affects events in ours(no Mainstream Scientist is claiming any such thing, are they?), you still get the same issue, is its action the result of Materialist/Natural Laws or something else?

I mean you are following me around and disrupting, " Hi lucky. Still pedaling that Atheistical Predestinative Sciencism snake oil?" (You put it in big letters ) when I try to discuss this idea with people, why bother with that. "Rhetorical" refutation I suppose you call it.....

(in reply to Zensee)

Post #: 89

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/3/2008 1:43:05 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

I love God. I have dozens of them, in all shapes and sizes and genders.

I am not at all concerned with the God that I don't believe in. I am concerned with the Gods that a lot of other people do believe in because their belief affects me directly and mostly negatively. And it's not their particular flavour of God but their blind belief which is the real concern, because it has been and continues to be a pole up the collective ass of humanity.

Zenzee, you have got it wrong, there is only one god, he just has a multiple personality disorder with a transvestite twist.

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Post #: 90

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/3/2008 1:50:04 AM

luckydog1

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"lucky, life is an event like everything else. Maybe we are talking at cross purposes but I thought we were arguing about an interventionist intelligence at work in life or not. A god that is seen as interventionist who arbitary intervenes in life which I assume every one who prays believes in or why would they pray, rather makes free will a farce."

But the thing Meat, is that your "Will" is nothing but the byproduct of the evolution of the Universe, If your an Atheist or a Materialist. Your (I don't mean you personally, but all of us)will is no different than that of a bacteria or a plant, much more refined of course, but just a modification. The only way you can consider it to be free (anything but the only possible result of its lawfull operation), is by non lawfull operation. Otherwise its just lawfull Input/Output processing. How in an Atheistic paradigm can it be anything other? There is no possibility of Free Will, in that Paradigm, all the way back to the initial conditions.

"A god that is seen as interventionist who arbitary intervenes in life which I assume every one who prays believes in or why would they pray,"

The thing is Meat, that is God as Santa Claus, is not real Theology, and almost no one who Prays or Meditates does it for that reason. You might learn something if you looked into it a little deeper. Arguments such as you present like that do nothing to persuade anyone. Your asumption is certainly wrong.

The OP is kind of open and subjet to inerpretation though. "Cause and Reason" can mean a lot of different things. I certainly don't want to get bogged down in a discussion of Whether God (in some form)exists. The idea I posited works both ways,and is proof of neither. The torchpaper could have been arranged very paticularlythen lit, or the torchpaper could just burn then reassemble (presumably according lawfull interactions), then re ignite. And of course by torchpaper we mean Universe, which could much more easily fall back into a singularity, than a burnt paper re assemble and light itself. Not a very good analogy.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 91

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/3/2008 2:16:11 AM

eyesopened

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Zenzee, you have got it wrong, there is only one god, he just has a multiple personality disorder with a transvestite twist.

See, i've never understood the need to make fun of individual's spiritual beliefs. Yeah, i know, all the wars and stuff and we are never ever ever allowed to talk about killing that does not contain religious undertones cuz that might ruin the whole arguemnt...
i don't evangelize like so many atheists do. my God is mine alone. my God isn't the opposite of science, my God is science along with so much more. my God is Energy, an Energy that 'science' has yet to discover and place a different name upon. This energy is so powerful that it caused a singular event called the Big Bang and whether this was caused for a purpose or was a random event, it's what humankind has been asking ever since there were humans. That science hasn't discovered the form of energy i call God does not mean It doesn't exist, no more than dinosaurs didn't exist until someone dug up a fossil... some things exist prior to their discovery, no?

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Post #: 92

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/4/2008 4:09:13 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

"lucky, life is an event like everything else. Maybe we are talking at cross purposes but I thought we were arguing about an interventionist intelligence at work in life or not. A god that is seen as interventionist who arbitary intervenes in life which I assume every one who prays believes in or why would they pray, rather makes free will a farce."

But the thing Meat, is that your "Will" is nothing but the byproduct of the evolution of the Universe, If your an Atheist or a Materialist. Your (I don't mean you personally, but all of us)will is no different than that of a bacteria or a plant, much more refined of course, but just a modification. The only way you can consider it to be free (anything but the only possible result of its lawfull operation), is by non lawfull operation. Otherwise its just lawfull Input/Output processing. How in an Atheistic paradigm can it be anything other? There is no possibility of Free Will, in that Paradigm, all the way back to the initial conditions.

Lucky, it seems clear to me our 'free will' is very much restricted to within the perameters of our biology. Our brains appear to have developed to help us survive within a niche and is adequate for little more which is why we can't bring this debate to an end, what we are discussing is beyond our knowledge and probably our understanding. Creationist god or no god, we are part of the same process as the bacteria and every other living creature we know of and probably what we don't know of in the universe and dependent on the wider universe for our survival so why this need to separate ourselves from the rest of life? Why would a god separate us out from the rest of life and consider us to be something apart?

I can accept that people might believe in a creationist god but I can't accept that people know what god thinks and that is what religion claims and if one examines religions, quite often claims for knowing god's plans are for very selfish and spurious reasons.

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Post #: 93

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/4/2008 4:15:49 AM

MzMia

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I actually agree with Lucky, a little bit.
I am a Believer and I believe in GOD.
It is NOT for me to even attempt to explain what he is going to do or WHY
he does things.

GOD is GOD

How could I a mere mortal, get into the "mind" of my creator, and the creator of the universe?
TGIF everyone!
THANK GOD ITS FRIDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/4/2008 4:19:57 AM >

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To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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Post #: 94

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/4/2008 4:26:49 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I actually agree with Lucky, a little bit.
I am a Believer and I believe in GOD.
It is NOT for me to even attempt to explain what he is going to do or WHY
he does things.

GOD is GOD

How could I a mere mortal, get into the "mind" of my creator, and the creator of the universe?
TGIF everyone!
THANK GOD ITS FRIDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is exactly what religions and religious people claim to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post #: 95

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/4/2008 9:29:49 AM

luckydog1

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"Lucky, it seems clear to me our 'free will' is very much restricted to within the perameters of our biology."

Naw, in a Materialist/Atheistic universe it is restricted far more than that. It doesn't exist at all. Anymore than a calculator has free will to give the answer 5 if you input 2+3.

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Post #: 96

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/4/2008 10:18:44 AM

aldonza1

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I think that phrase was designed for people to be able to sleep better at night.
Somehow it gives them comfort to be able to accept what ever has happened to them as well as shrug off any personal reaponsibility they may have in some scenerios, sorry.
I believe for everything that happens there is a series of events that follow and those chain of events be them good, bad or indifferent could be considered by some reasons.

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Post #: 97

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/4/2008 12:26:51 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

"Lucky, it seems clear to me our 'free will' is very much restricted to within the perameters of our biology."

Naw, in a Materialist/Atheistic universe it is restricted far more than that. It doesn't exist at all. Anymore than a calculator has free will to give the answer 5 if you input 2+3.

If you believe in god, why do you think the biology he created isn't worthy?

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Post #: 98

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/4/2008 3:44:10 PM

luckydog1

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Where do you see me saying any such thing Meat? Why do you have to make up stuff to have a point. It's kind of funny to watch the Atheists twist and weasel on this issue. Why do you have a problem with the result of your philosophy? I think the Universe that was created and designed to Evolve is very worthy. But what does that have to do with anything?

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Post #: 99

RE: Everything Happens For A Reason. - 4/4/2008 3:47:55 PM

AMaster

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Not everything happens for a reason...... the lesson is not everything happens for a reason. Life is like that.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 100

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