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ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 8:40:52 AM

subtee

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Joined: 7/26/2007
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We don’t know each other…not really. We can learn about one another from what we post here or from PMs, profiles, etc., but this is a forum of the written word and much is left to be colored in by each of us as readers.

We realize that inflections, facial/body expressions, intonations, moods, in short, the shadings that enhance meaning and thus understanding in a face-to-face conversation, are lacking in this genre.

What do we have to make sense of each other then? Our experience informs our understanding of one another. I can see another’s experience as being like my own, but only through the lens of my own occurrences. After that, we have assumption.

Here then, is my question. Do you believe that the assumptions you bring to the boards are generally “benefit of the doubt,” or do they tend toward negative judgments? Are we harsher toward those we never have to look in the eye? Or do we empathize with their words, imagining ourselves within the frame of what has moved them to draw us in…often with a great deal of vulnerability.

I think that I see more of the rush to judge (which I realize is a judgment in and of itself). It seems to me that the assumptions we bring to necessarily fill in the colors missing by having only written words are often dark. I see harshness and I admit I have not been immune to it myself. I have had 2 separate days of fasting after having posted something ugly, to remind me to think before I open my mouth.

If it is true that we (very generally speaking) tend to dark assumptions over compassionate ones, what does that reflect? Is it simply a matter of the nature of forum reading and postings? Or are we perhaps a society in which it is easier, or socialized, or even endemic to color each other with a brush of disapproving judgment? Is it self-preservation?

If you don’t believe that we assume with judgment toward one another, please paint me that picture too.

Thank you!

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Don't believe everything you think...

Post #: 1

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 8:47:33 AM

meatcleaver

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It's very easy to leave diplomacy on the shelf with not personally knowing someone. On the other hand there needn't be any pretence about ones beliefs because one doesn't have to worry about hurting someone's feelings.

Doesn't one get about 20% of the meaning through the written word? You can't assess anyone over the internet so its pointless making personal assumptions about someone and just respond to a person's post which the writer probably thinks is more nuanced than a reader perceives it to be.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/1/2008 8:48:41 AM >

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RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:15:57 AM

cjan

Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
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Interesting and tough question, tee. I think that "netiquette" presents a greater challenge, sometimes, than face to face encounters, due to some of the limitations you mentioned. Sometimes, I'm better at it than at other times. I'm only human after all.

Nevertheless, I try to keep the limitations of net communication in mind when I engage in it. I try to communicate clearly and kindly, although, of course, sometimes I step on my dick.

I haven't punished myself by fasting or anything like that. Sometimes I will reread a post I've made and regret it. And , of course, there's Mod11who can, and has, pointed out the error of my ways. Btw, I think she rocks.

Now, where's that hair shirt of mine ?

Thanks for the topic, OP.

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 3

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:17:11 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It's very easy to leave diplomacy on the shelf with not personally knowing someone. On the other hand there needn't be any pretence about ones beliefs because one doesn't have to worry about hurting someone's feelings.

Doesn't one get about 20% of the meaning through the written word? You can't assess anyone over the internet so its pointless making personal assumptions about someone and just respond to a person's post which the writer probably thinks is more nuanced than a reader perceives it to be.

I agree it is easy to leave diplomacy on the shelf...but why is that our inclination? Simply because it is easy?

And how can we help but make personal assumptions when responding? Is that possible?

Thanks for your response

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 4

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:21:15 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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I must admit I have been guilty myself. And I won't offer any excuses. I could say I was provoked, but then I have a choice about responding, and how to frame any such response. I admit to having gotten irritated about a couple of private exchanges between myself and a couple of bottoms. Maybe others don't get irritated at being dropped in the middle of a phone call, but I did. Then, with another, I made a completely unwarranted assumption. I've made an agreement with myself to not take e-mail exchanges with subs as any more than they are... the written equivalent of saying "hello" to someone standing next to me in a coffee shop. It's a new century; if a woman wants to know more, she'll find a way to let me know.

I get ticked at some of the righties here (I have more descriptive euphemisms which I use on another board without "censorship"), so two of them I have on ignore and I'll probably put a couple more on iggy, too. If I want to read incoherent rightard drivel, I'll read Little Green Footballs or the Drudge Report.

Dunno if that is what you were asking, dearie, but that's my answer.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 5

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:22:21 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
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Cjan, hi and thanks for writing.

It seems to me self-dick-trodding isn't limited to those who have them, haha.

I don't mean the times when we're funny, because, let's face it...we're fucking funny. We slay us! I guess I'm thinking about when we're thinking about what we read. Is it ingrained to assume badly about someone else? Is it Jerry Springers fault?

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

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Post #: 6

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:25:08 AM

faerytattoodgirl

Posts: 5824
Status: offline

we make just as many assumptions if not more in real life than with internet.

its called being human.

curiosity killed the pussy.

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Post #: 7

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:27:43 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I must admit I have been guilty myself. And I won't offer any excuses. I could say I was provoked, but then I have a choice about responding, and how to frame any such response. I admit to having gotten irritated about a couple of private exchanges between myself and a couple of bottoms. Maybe others don't get irritated at being dropped in the middle of a phone call, but I did. Then, with another, I made a completely unwarranted assumption. I've made an agreement with myself to not take e-mail exchanges with subs as any more than they are... the written equivalent of saying "hello" to someone standing next to me in a coffee shop. It's a new century; if a woman wants to know more, she'll find a way to let me know.

I get ticked at some of the righties here (I have more descriptive euphemisms which I use on another board without "censorship"), so two of them I have on ignore and I'll probably put a couple more on iggy, too. If I want to read incoherent rightard drivel, I'll read Little Green Footballs or the Drudge Report.

Dunno if that is what you were asking, dearie, but that's my answer.

Hey Hippie! I didn't have to wait for you to be approved? You're off the naughty list then?

As always, your post is thoughtful, well written (and appreciated). This in particular is interesting to me:

quote:

I've made an agreement with myself to not take e-mail exchanges with subs as any more than they are... the written equivalent of saying "hello" to someone standing next to me in a coffee shop. It's a new century; if a woman wants to know more, she'll find a way to let me know.

So are you, in effect, assuming that a message from a sub or bottom is polite conversation?

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 8

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:28:20 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt unless they make themselves out to sound as if they are going out of their way to be clueless or harsh. When I started out, I sounded clueless as wel, though I always looked to learn, not to present myself as knowing it all and hoping others agreed. I reserve actual judgement until I get to know someone better. I do not judge a person at first glance, only a subject that is being presented for discussion. There are certain subjects (ie cheating, no limits slavery, slave vs sub debates) that will almost always get the same harsh reactions from me. They ahve been discussed ad nauseum and to beat a dead horse wears everyones nerves to frazzles. Also, anyone who begins their posts with "forgive my ignorance but" is a target for me as well, becasue I donot believe if you know you are being ignorant and looking for the easy way to the answers you want rather than putting in a few minutes to attempt some research, you should be pardoned.
ASide from that, it is a case by case basis. It is only after someone posts multiple times on the same types of topics, or with the same opinions asking for advice and not heeding it, or unnecessarily being nasty to others becasue they dont agree that I have a negative outlook on them as posters. Anyone else is positive unless proven otherwise.

My 2 cents
DV

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VampiresLair

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 9

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:29:16 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

we make just as many assumptions if not more in real life than with internet.

its called being human.

curiosity killed the pussy.

~Covers her bits~ More in real life? How so, faery?

Thanks!

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to faerytattoodgirl)

Post #: 10

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:39:36 AM

faerytattoodgirl

Posts: 5824
Status: offline

"if not more"

because of the fact you see the person face to face. you see their bodies...you see the way they talk. you see their attitudes.

i cant count how many times people used to stare at me and think weird thoughts. especially when i first started changing physically.

example:i used to assume for instance when i saw a woman with many tattoos and very large build...that they were bikers and druggies. all that just from what i said in my first sentance.

_____________________________

I did not reply to your cmail.

I am flawed.

Imperfect.

MUST SPANK!!!

SPAAAAAAAANK!!!

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 11

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:40:23 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I must admit I have been guilty myself. And I won't offer any excuses. I could say I was provoked, but then I have a choice about responding, and how to frame any such response. I admit to having gotten irritated about a couple of private exchanges between myself and a couple of bottoms. Maybe others don't get irritated at being dropped in the middle of a phone call, but I did. Then, with another, I made a completely unwarranted assumption. I've made an agreement with myself to not take e-mail exchanges with subs as any more than they are... the written equivalent of saying "hello" to someone standing next to me in a coffee shop. It's a new century; if a woman wants to know more, she'll find a way to let me know.

I get ticked at some of the righties here (I have more descriptive euphemisms which I use on another board without "censorship"), so two of them I have on ignore and I'll probably put a couple more on iggy, too. If I want to read incoherent rightard drivel, I'll read Little Green Footballs or the Drudge Report.

Dunno if that is what you were asking, dearie, but that's my answer.

Hey Hippie! I didn't have to wait for you to be approved? You're off the naughty list then?

As always, your post is thoughtful, well written (and appreciated). This in particular is interesting to me:

quote:

I've made an agreement with myself to not take e-mail exchanges with subs as any more than they are... the written equivalent of saying "hello" to someone standing next to me in a coffee shop. It's a new century; if a woman wants to know more, she'll find a way to let me know.

So are you, in effect, assuming that a message from a sub or bottom is polite conversation?

Hi Tee, it does indeed seem as if I have been paroled, does it not?

I guess that is what I am saying. It's better for me not to try to read anything into an e-mail. I mean, with most, it's obvious that is all that is possible in the short-term anyway. Distance, financial and work commitments, Kinder, all indicate that what I seek is very unlikely to happen. I don't want to jump into anything; I usually end up making an unwise choice. Hell, even having someone move in with me can evaporate before my eyes. And that wasn't all that long ago. Maybe I'll tell the tale in my Journal sometime. I've only told part of it to one person here, and only a couple elsewhere.

But you wanted more to talk about public exchanges between CMites, yes?

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 12

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:47:00 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

Not just CM boards...and I still think that you're making assumptions aren't you? You're careful not to "read anything into" a PM, but instead you're assuming it means nothing...or politeness, no?

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 13

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:49:09 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl
[snip]
example:i used to assume for instance when i saw a woman with many tattoos and very large build...that they were bikers and druggies. all that just from what i said in my first sentance.

That's a good point; I think we do that all the time, based only on the visual. But what if you have a conversation with the biker chick? Would your assumptions about her change? Or go away?

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to faerytattoodgirl)

Post #: 14

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:56:16 AM

faerytattoodgirl

Posts: 5824
Status: offline

quote:

That's a good point; I think we do that all the time, based only on the visual. But what if you have a conversation with the biker chick? Would your assumptions about her change? Or go away?

not until i would actually know her life and how she lives...a visit to her home would tell me that right away.

its the same from vanilla people assuming about us bdsm peoeple...they think how terrible we treat people with violence and the many sexual contacts with strangers.

its the same when someone looks at trans person...oh they must be crazy or schizo or something.

i have a million examples..but im done with them now...cause you get the point.

_____________________________

I did not reply to your cmail.

I am flawed.

Imperfect.

MUST SPANK!!!

SPAAAAAAAANK!!!

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 15

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 9:58:20 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Not just CM boards...and I still think that you're making assumptions aren't you? You're careful not to "read anything into" a PM, but instead you're assuming it means nothing...or politeness, no?

Yes, you are absolutely right, I am. I'll get something to drink whilst I deliberate.

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 16

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 10:15:15 AM

cjan

Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Cjan, hi and thanks for writing.

It seems to me self-dick-trodding isn't limited to those who have them, haha.

I don't mean the times when we're funny, because, let's face it...we're fucking funny. We slay us! I guess I'm thinking about when we're thinking about what we read. Is it ingrained to assume badly about someone else? Is it Jerry Springers fault?

I think, getting to the heart of the matter in what you seem to be wondering about, that yes, we do make assumptions about people, online or not.
I relearn this every time I go on a meditation retreat. The retreats are silent. In other words, we don't speak or communicate with each other outside of occasional group meetings which are open for discussion/questions on relevant issues.In the course of the retreat ( it's wonderfull and sometimes scary to watch our minds with no distractions), I invariably make assumptions about my fellow retreatants without knowing a godamn thing about them. Then , when the retreat is over and silence is broken, I have an opportunity to spend time and chat with these folks. Always amazes and humbles me to find how wrong my stupid assumptions were..

For example (I'll try to make this short ). At one retreat, there was a guy who just drove me nuts. He wore slippers that loudly flopped when he walked and he was always scribbling something in a notebook. Even the loud way he ate annoyed me. I resolved to have a chat with this dude (assuming he was a newbie) to enlighten him as to proper retreat etiquette when silence was broken. We did chat and I was dumbfounded to find he was no newbie. He was, in fact , a personal assistant to a well known Tibetan monk and teacher. He had also published a number of translations, in a few languages, of Buddhist texts. Well.... shout my mouf !

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 17

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 10:15:56 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

I'm going to assume that whatever you're drinking it's delectable...

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

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Post #: 18

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 10:27:30 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

I always felt that human exchanges online can be very revelatory. It feels as though because visual and auditory perception is erased, the personality appears nearly parred down to a minimal.

It's cyberbrilliance.

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Post #: 19

RE: ASS…u & me? - 4/1/2008 10:29:08 AM

LilMissHaven

Posts: 734
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline

I post or try to post on the assumption that every question or statement is gennuinly (spelling sorry) asked or spoken.

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Post #: 20

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