RE: Dominance, and Power

RE: Dominance, and Power (Full Version)

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LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 7:48:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gemini1766 Leaders inspire. Good Doms and Dommes inspire, too. "Dominance is the ability to create a hunger in someone that's so strong they will do anything, anytime, anywhere just to please you." That is inspiration. The power exists always, if one is a true leader or Dom/me. It never ceases to exist. It's not cocky, it's not narcisstic, nor is it an overblown ego. You get those from people who have to prove themselves. If you met me without knowning me, you'd never guess I have a dominate personality. I can follow, I can lead. I can be inspired, and I can inspire. I have nothing to prove, I know who I am, what I am, and that's what matters. Not some stranger looking at me and thinking they know me by my look, my walk, the way I hold myself. Dominant. Dominate is a verb. And that is a good point- slaves can be excellent leaders and inspirations to others, it never ceases within them.

BoskoDotDom -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 8:12:26 PM)
I agree and disagree with both . I believe my subbies insipre me as much as I strive to inspire them both to serve more diligently (they already do really) and to explore more everday day whether in or out of the play scenario.All my girls are very strong within themselves and face challenges in very differing ways. But then I'd hope for that from a nilla relationship too. I'm far to chaotic to lead in my daily life but when you place my girls within my grasp I soar and become my more comfortable self and stronger through their lust and devotion. Nothing wrong with being a little narcisstic and sometimes it does spill over into cocky, but as a D learns more about his/her control this does become a mild nausence that is easily dealt with. It is a two way street no matter which way you look at it.well to start with... A Dominant without a sub isnt leading anything besides a search for one. But that doesnt make them any less a Dominant.same could be said for a sub. -Bosko

Leatherist -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 8:37:51 PM)
It's more interesting when people get so hung up on a fetish-that they become a caricature. That's about the only point I see in topics like this one.

Gemini1766 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 8:57:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: Gemini1766 Leaders inspire. Good Doms and Dommes inspire, too. "Dominance is the ability to create a hunger in someone that's so strong they will do anything, anytime, anywhere just to please you." That is inspiration. The power exists always, if one is a true leader or Dom/me. It never ceases to exist. It's not cocky, it's not narcisstic, nor is it an overblown ego. You get those from people who have to prove themselves. If you met me without knowning me, you'd never guess I have a dominate personality. I can follow, I can lead. I can be inspired, and I can inspire. I have nothing to prove, I know who I am, what I am, and that's what matters. Not some stranger looking at me and thinking they know me by my look, my walk, the way I hold myself. Dominant. Dominate is a verb. And that is a good point- slaves can be excellent leaders and inspirations to others, it never ceases within them. Bad habit of mine, I add the letter "e" to many words. I can't even blame it on typing, like I can the missing letter "s" when I go to type "house" but instead type "houe". My spelling has never been the greatest, so what. My meaning still comes across.

obis -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 9:46:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann Thanks for the comments. Actually, I wasn't intending to suggest the only sort of dominants in existance are those who are charismatic enough to charm an army or harem. Such leaders aren't necessarily excellent dominants (as we use the noun dominant in BDSM) but possessing leadership qualities can make life much easier for a BDSM dominant. Rather, what I suggesting is that people who are, in fact, dominant (as an adjective) often do possess such leadership qualities. Men who are not good leaders, on the other hand, may very well identify as 'a' dominant, but aren't necessarily skilled at dominating others. None of this directly impacts my initial beef with the statement lally made: "without submission, a dominant is powerless." A person, to be a capable, good dominant, must have their own power. If they do not have power over themselves, they will be incapable of having power over others: a necessary componant of a dominant/submissive interaction. Definitely, the attitude and worldview of the dominant is independent of whether or not he has someone being submissive to him at any given time. I know this is one of the distinctions some Goreans try to make between BDSM Doms and Gorean Masters -- that a Gorean somehow "is" while a dominant exists only in relationship to his sub. While the authority and consent may come from the sub, the personality and worldview of the dom comes from inside himself. If there were no women willing to submit, he would simply have a less fulfilling life, with much more frustration and never being totally successful in a relationship because he'll always be a square peg trying to fit into a round relationship hole. The only reason I was splitting semantic hairs over the question of leadership (because I don't think you and i really disagree) is that so many subs starting out are unwittingly attracted to jerks and abusers precisely because those guys have cultivated the veneer of leadership and confidence -- charisma, authority in the gang, the ability to grab the attention of a room. While none of those traits are bad, they are only superficial measurements we use for quickly evaluating confidence and competence. People who want to be able to influence others learn quickly to get very good at projecting those superficial traits rather than taking the much harder course of actually developing the personal qualities they represent.

Justme696 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:20:08 PM)
quote: The power exists always, if one is a true leader or Dom/me what is "a true" leader? true and good don't mean anything to dominant/leader as words. No one is a good leader to all, no one is dominant to all. There for good and true don''t excist in this case. It are words we Dom's like to hide behind and feel powerfull. besides dominant has nothing to do with power. One can be a dominant presence.meaning trying always to be visible....doesn't mean you actually have any influence on the people. Imagine how busy a Dom would be on CM if he was "true". All the subs and slaves on here would focus on this one "true" DOm and the rest of the Doms could go home.

ReynardM -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:23:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann Dominance doesn't stem from anyone or anything but within that person. Powerful people don't wait around for others to obey; they actively take control of situations that are presented to them. It is through their charisma, strength of will, and/or good sense that they have the capacity to bring situations to a desired conclusion. The old saying "behind every strong man, there's a strong woman" doesn't mean the man is weak without her; it means he wouldn't have that strong woman, if he wasn't already a strong man. If it hadn't been her, it'd have been someone else. Good, dominant people constantly draw others to them. It is not the submission of others that empowers a dominant; it is the dominant who empowers themselves. This is itself maybe tangential to your point, but I'm not sure I agree with you here. Are you saying that natural dominance implies arrogating power to yourself even when others don't give it to you? I agree with you about a dominant's power not coming from the submissive, but that doesn't imply that dominants automatically "take control" of situations. Don't you think it's possible for a "powerful person" to refrain from exercising his power? You seem to imply that dominants will inevitably be popular, attracting others to them. Is it not possible for a dominant to be "quiet", not drawing attention to himself? I would say that, although the slave's submission does not empower the dominant, it provides a canvas on which his dominance can be displayed. Certainly dominance can be seen without a submissive, but not to the same extent.

Leatherist -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:24:48 PM)
Goreans make one interesting point. They don't really make a distinction about a man being anything but free. Free to be his own man. Which is a form of independence that needs no ownership to validate it. A slave is only seen as a posession. The same way that you don't become a "boy" because you don't own a car. I sort of like at least that one aspect of Gor. It's not codependent-like a lot of bdsm definitions seem to be.

Gemini1766 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:28:27 PM)
Justme, I think the issue is how we, "Americans", use English vs how you do as someone who did not grow up with it and the American idiom. As or "dominat has nothing to do with power." I disagree. Just because you do not wield power over another does not mean that you do not have power. Power exists in the person, in the mind. It is a presence that can be felt. How it is used, or abused, depends on the person. I need not and do not want "always to be visible". In fact, there's a saying (and I'm going to paraphrase it), "Those who want power should be the last to get it. Those who should be in power don't want it." I know I've just slaughtered that, but you should get the point. Being a good leader does not mean you necessarily want to be the man out front. And being the man out front is not proof of good leadership.

HardToTame -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 11:03:05 PM)
A good leader is always a servant to their people. I think society mistakes dominant people as being good leaders and slaves as being wimps. I see it as reverse.

Gemini1766 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 11:48:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardToTame A good leader is always a servant to their people. I think society mistakes dominant people as being good leaders and slaves as being wimps. I see it as reverse. If you had only left out the last part. Leaders are not wimps. Nor are good dominants. Only the weak minded willingly follow a wimp of a leader.

Justme696 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/2/2008 1:04:51 AM)
quote: Just because you do not wield power over another does not mean that you do not have power how do you know you have power, when no one is there to "weight" it

Gemini1766 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/2/2008 4:47:53 AM)
How do you know you're a Dom, without someone to Dominate? And now we start to be philosophical.

TysGalilah -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/2/2008 5:06:57 AM)
Stephann This made me think back to something an acquaintance of mine has on his website... he wrote this about his submissive, Lily. " this is all about that very special person in my life, who she is, what she means to me, and how it has come to be. Lily is my submissive, she is mine; without her, I am simply one man with some special feelings and desires, unexpressed. With her, I am able to express myself, and be who and what I desire" Dominance is there whether you have a submissive or not...but "expressed or unexpressed" are the critical words ...imo My submission is a part of who I am ...but it is unexpressed without the dominance/dominant. Cyndi

Justme696 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/2/2008 6:23:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gemini1766 How do you know you're a Dom, without someone to Dominate? And now we start to be philosophical. well good question...but it is not philisophical....it is realistic. Power is only power when people feel it. I can sit alone at home..and think real strong I have power..I can curse..shout....but no one there to feel it. So how do I know my "power" is there? IF there would have been people, would they see me as powerfull? What I think doesn't matter to people, but how they see me...does. It is not about feeling powerfull in the real world, it is about beeing seen as powerfull. To answer your question; you can be a Dom when you are alone , but to be dominant you need some one else.

Gemini1766 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/2/2008 7:14:41 AM)
How do you know someone has power, even when they are not exerting it? They tend to "radiate" it. There's a certain feel about someone who knows how to wield power. The way they stand, walk, hold themselves. The confidence they exude. They know they have that spark, it's not something that they pretend. There is no posturing, it isn't necessary and would be silly. A fake can pretend to be powerful at home and fool themselves as long as they stay at home. Put them into a real situation with others, they may preen and strut, but the real confidence isn't there. They're the ones putting others down to build themselves up. That's not power. That's just useless posturing.

Justme696 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/2/2008 7:52:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gemini1766 How do you know someone has power, even when they are not exerting it? They tend to "radiate" it. There's a certain feel about someone who knows how to wield power. The way they stand, walk, hold themselves. The confidence they exude. They know they have that spark, it's not something that they pretend. There is no posturing, it isn't necessary and would be silly. A fake can pretend to be powerful at home and fool themselves as long as they stay at home. Put them into a real situation with others, they may preen and strut, but the real confidence isn't there. They're the ones putting others down to build themselves up. That's not power. That's just useless posturing. I know the difference between a fake and a real "someone with power". But that wasn't the question raised. The question was..or statement better ...was...you need others to be in charge.. yes or no. In theory we all know what a leader or dominant is. But who makes them. To lead you need followers. Wiht out followers their are no leaders. No matter what theory or description suits them.

Gemini1766 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/2/2008 8:01:59 AM)
To actively lead, you need followers. But that does not diminish a leader's power, it lay in wait for the next time it needs to be put to use. Two wholly different issues, in my book. Philosophical debate is exactly what this is.

thetammyjo -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/2/2008 8:35:31 AM)
Of course I have power as an individual. So does my slave. In fact, if Fox had no power wouldn't interest be at all. What I get from Fox is authority in regards to him and to our dynamic. I think our dynamic had helped us each grow in our individual, relationship and family power but it isn't the cause of that merely an aid to our own growth.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/2/2008 9:21:49 AM)
Most dominants make crappy leaders, too insecure and self centered to allow anyone else to share the limelight. That isn't a group, that is a cult. Others lead by fear or intimidation, another crappy way of getting your way. We have a word for all this...domineering. In a bdsm context, that isn't a complimentary word. I would bet more well run bdsm groups are led by submissives than by dominants and that is truest of any group run by a single person. Groups run by a single dominant are almost always thinly disguised harems and or cults rather than well run groups. The ability to allow others to share the limelight is a skill all too lacking in many dominants as is the ability to tolerate others points of view. Merc of Merc&beth is a great example of what I considere a great dominant to be. Everybody knows where he stands, his opinion is clear and his style is different than many, however as long as you are not full of shit, he can be great to hang around, even if his style is quite different than yours. He is an unabashed conservative and I am a left wing commie socialist pig and yet we get along great. The one place we share common ground is that we both have a vision of OUR life and how it should be. We are concerned with ourselves but on some level could care less about how others do their lives. In short, to me, if you view being dominant as a zero sum game, the more others have the less I have, you are domineering. However, if you view your dominance as yours and it doesn't matter what others are doing, that is dominance as I see it. Thus my issue with things like born again christians, old guardians, and gorians, they want to believe if you aren't doing it their way, you are doing it wrong. The difference is not subtle, we both believe that their way is right for them, the problem comes in when they want to tell me my way is wrong for me. Our founding fathers were all great men, clearly towering in intellect and character during a a time of great men. They did not muscle each other out of the way, jockeying for the alpha male slot. Instead, they worked through their differences, compromised, and together created something not only greater than themselves but one that allowed everyone to follow whatever dream they had for themselves. In short, some people lead followers, others lead with equals, which would you rather be?

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