RE: Dominance, and Power (Full Version)

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gypsygrl -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/2/2008 9:57:47 AM)

To respond to the op:  I think you're pointing to the fact that there's different kinds of power: power over oneself and power over others.  Anybody, submissive, dominant or undefined can have power over themselves in the sense of having mastered themselves and its unlikely that a lifestyle dominant is going to be able to dominate an other  effectively (very important qualifier there) unless they've mastered themselves.  I think we would agree that this kind of power does not and should not depend on a submissive.

The other kind of power, power over another, does seem to depend on the existance of another, pretty much by definition. In ths sense at least, a submissive does enable a dominant to realize his dominance.  Without someone to submit, the urge to dominate doesn't really go anywhere.  So, while his or her power doesn't originate in the submissive, the presence of the submissive gives it a point.




Gemini1766 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/2/2008 11:41:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Most dominants make crappy leaders, too insecure and self centered to allow anyone else to share the limelight.  That isn't a group, that is a cult. Others lead by fear or intimidation, another crappy way of getting your way.  We have a word for all this...domineering.  In a bdsm context, that isn't a complimentary word.

I would bet more well run bdsm groups are led by submissives than by dominants and that is truest of any group run by a single person.  Groups run by a single dominant are almost always thinly disguised harems and or cults rather than well run groups.

The ability to allow others to share the limelight is a skill all too lacking in many dominants as is the ability to tolerate others points of view.  Merc of Merc&beth is a great example of what I considere a great dominant to be.  Everybody knows where he stands, his opinion is clear and his style is different than many, however as long as you are not full of shit, he can be great to hang around, even if his style is quite different than yours.  He is an unabashed conservative and I am a left wing commie socialist pig and yet we get along great.

The one place we share common ground is that we both have a vision of OUR life and how it should be.  We are concerned with ourselves but on some level could care less about how others do their lives.  In short, to me, if you view being dominant as a zero sum game, the more others have the less I have, you are domineering.  However, if you view your dominance as yours and it doesn't matter what others are doing, that is dominance as I see it.

Thus my issue with things like born again christians, old guardians, and gorians, they want to believe if you aren't doing it their way, you are doing it wrong.  The difference is not subtle, we both believe that their way is right for them, the problem comes in when they want to tell me my way is wrong for me.

Our founding fathers were all great men, clearly towering in intellect and character during a  a time of great men.  They did not muscle each other out of the way, jockeying for the alpha male slot.  Instead, they worked through their differences, compromised, and together created something not only greater than themselves but one that allowed everyone to follow whatever dream they had for themselves.

In short, some people lead followers, others lead with equals, which would you rather be?
I would not dream of arguing with what you say here, as it reflects much of what I believe.

One of my favorite leaders from the Second World War is General Omar Bradley. Fear was the haven of Patton, and his death is still questionable as accident or staged murder. Bradley on the other hand inspired. That is the man I look to for an example.

I lead because I am able. I follow because I recognize my limits. Am I better than anyone else, no. I just have strenghts where others have weaknesses, and weaknesses where others have strenght. Share the responsibilities, of course, I do not do it all alone. Even when I lead, those who follow me help make me the success I am. Just as when I follow, I help may the person leading that much more successful.
Power, I wield it always. It is how I wield it that matters.




Justme696 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/3/2008 2:45:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

Philosophical debate is exactly what this is.



nope, that is what you want it to be ;).
You can't enforce things on others because you want it. You can though, try to convince others. That is leading.




Gemini1766 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/3/2008 6:58:47 AM)

It is my opinion of what it is.
We disagree.
That's fine.




ShaktiSama -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/3/2008 1:37:08 PM)

Fast reply, just engaging the original framing--

I think there is a confusion of terms here.  I agree with the general premise that the term Dominance should be de-coupled at least partially from the word Power.  There are a number of reasons for this, not least being the semantic:  I agree with you wholeheartedly that POWER is an interior quality which springs from the individual.  But DOMINANCE, by definition, does not exist unless there is more than one individual present.  In order for one person to dominate, another must submit.  Period.  No one is "dominant" in any empty room, even if he/she is powerful.

When you de-couple Dominance from Power, and realize that the two can exist independently?  A lot of things suddenly make a lot more sense.  I agree with you completely that many dominant types have an abundant fund of personal Power at their command, and often times other human beings are drawn to it because it manifests as charisma; people who have a naturally submissive nature are especially drawn to power precisely because they want someone to submit to!

But as you point out, you do not have to be dominant to have Power--many submissives are enormously powerful people with a great deal of charisma.  And it's not only submissives who are drawn to power--many dominants are drawn to it as well, not only in charismatic submissives but in other dominants.

What also becomes clear, when you de-couple Dominance from Power semantically, is that submission is a genuine choice and an aspect of personal character on the part of one who submits.  Submissives enjoy surrendering power--they are not by definition powerless.  Nor are they even automatically inferior in power to the dominants to whom they bow.  This is something that many a D-type has learned too late, after a submissive decided that what was happening in their relationship was not D/S but B/S.  [;)]




Gemini1766 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/3/2008 1:47:27 PM)

ShaktiSama, good point. I wasn't really thinking along those lines so I'm glad you pointed it out. After all, I am human, not perfect. Not even foolish enough to pretend I am.

Good to see another Heinlein fan. I like the quotes from the notebooks, too.




Justme696 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/3/2008 1:49:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

It is my opinion of what it is.
We disagree.
That's fine.



it is called discussion ;) .....I find your view interesting




obis -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/3/2008 3:47:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
...what was happening in their relationship was not D/S but B/S.  [;)]


I just wanted to warn you, I'm shamelessly stealing this turn of phrase and will use it often. I fully intend to act like it is my own wit. :)




ImpGrrl -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/4/2008 6:51:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Angelsmile

Totally agrees with You. I can confirm that. The dominant has no need at all of any submissive to take influence on whatever seems important to Him/Her on His/Her path in His/Her life or the one of others. That power comes from His/Her deep inner self and inner strength, from His/Her values, convictions and attitude towards things and His/Her knowledge in how to change them in the way He/She wants them to be. It is due to His/Her strong will, firm belief and persistance whilst carrying out appropriate actions, His/Her high energy level, His/Her sharp perception, His/Her way to communicate with others and way to act upon things, the proactive approach and His/Her charisma that He/She achieves most of His/Her goals and objectives. [:)] Thats what makes them so admirable.


One could easily say the same about s-types, as well.




ImpGrrl -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/4/2008 6:55:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Laro
The only place I sem to completley disagree, is that I can't imagine a situation where a true Dominant, follows.  I do believe you can be a submissive leader, but I just can't imagine a Dominant following.........


Why not?

Everyone follows at some point in their life - everyone.




ImpGrrl -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/4/2008 6:57:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

Leaders inspire.
Good Doms and Dommes inspire, too.
"Dominance is the ability to create a hunger in someone that's so strong they will do anything, anytime, anywhere just to please you."
That is inspiration. The power exists always, if one is a true leader or Dom/me. It never ceases to exist.
It's not cocky, it's not narcisstic, nor is it an overblown ego. You get those from people who have to prove themselves.
If you met me without knowning me, you'd never guess I have a dominate personality. I can follow, I can lead. I can be inspired, and I can inspire. I have nothing to prove, I know who I am, what I am, and that's what matters. Not some stranger looking at me and thinking they know me by my look, my walk, the way I hold myself.



Every person in a good relationship inspires the other in some way.




Stephann -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/4/2008 6:59:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Angelsmile

Totally agrees with You. I can confirm that. The dominant has no need at all of any submissive to take influence on whatever seems important to Him/Her on His/Her path in His/Her life or the one of others. That power comes from His/Her deep inner self and inner strength, from His/Her values, convictions and attitude towards things and His/Her knowledge in how to change them in the way He/She wants them to be. It is due to His/Her strong will, firm belief and persistance whilst carrying out appropriate actions, His/Her high energy level, His/Her sharp perception, His/Her way to communicate with others and way to act upon things, the proactive approach and His/Her charisma that He/She achieves most of His/Her goals and objectives. [:)] Thats what makes them so admirable.


One could easily say the same about s-types, as well.


One did.

Stephan




Angelsmile -> RE: Dominance, and Power (5/10/2008 10:38:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Laro
The only place I sem to completley disagree, is that I can't imagine a situation where a true Dominant, follows.  I do believe you can be a submissive leader, but I just can't imagine a Dominant following.........


Why not?

Everyone follows at some point in their life - everyone.


I would even say every Dominant has to follow and follows by instinct. That seems paradoxal at first sight, but it isnt. A true dominant follows without showing it. This is where one can distinguish the wannabe-Dominants who in fact are vanilla and fake to be dominant and the true ones. A true Dom always follows as paradoxal as it might seem at first sight. However he would never admit it openly. He follows by instinct and by instinct he does the right things. However the wannabe-Dominants who in fact are vanilla can cause a lot of damage by doing things which are harmful which a true Dominant would never do, because ... he follows.




Angelsmile -> RE: Dominance, and Power (5/10/2008 10:43:01 AM)

I would also want to add of how disgusting I in my opinion are people who are faking to be Dominants and in fact are vanilla and who dont listen to reason being "convinced" that what they do is right although it is so wrong and who cause so much damage to innocent people by using force and power and thus violence to other people. They are no dominants but sick persons and law breakers. 




Angelsmile -> RE: Dominance, and Power (5/10/2008 10:47:27 AM)

To which I also want to add that being a lawbreaker will never make a true dominant of such a man.
To be or not to be. And those who are, are. And those who are not, never will be it.

Sorry, but this needed to be said.




Level -> RE: Dominance, and Power (5/10/2008 10:51:19 AM)

[8|]




ExSteelAgain -> RE: Dominance, and Power (5/10/2008 10:52:37 AM)

Angelsmile, you do realize your description of a dominant as someone who follows may not be a universally accepted one. In your minds eye you have it all figured out, but there are lots of variations in everything we do. Judge the end results and don't label everyone who doesn't fit your mold as a lawbreaker and sick.




HieroV -> RE: Dominance, and Power (5/10/2008 11:11:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

One of my favorite leaders from the Second World War is General Omar Bradley. Fear was the haven of Patton, and his death is still questionable as accident or staged murder. Bradley on the other hand inspired. That is the man I look to for an example.

I lead because I am able. I follow because I recognize my limits. Am I better than anyone else, no. I just have strenghts where others have weaknesses, and weaknesses where others have strenght.


The dominants (and leaders) that have attacted me and been very easy to surrender to are those who can admit mistakes or that they were wrong. It shows me they have their feet in the real world and are extremely confident.

At my current job I had an excutive admit to me recently, in private, that they were wrong and my rejected approach to a problem was correct. Not only was it an ego boost - now I'm willing to take a bullet for the guy and more willing to let my guard down around him.

Hiero V




Angelsmile -> RE: Dominance, and Power (5/10/2008 11:14:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Angelsmile, you do realize your description of a dominant as someone who follows may not be a universally accepted one. In your minds eye you have it all figured out, but there are lots of variations in everything we do. Judge the end results and don't label everyone who doesn't fit your mold as a lawbreaker and sick.


Have a closer look. That is of course no labeling but I was sure that answer would come :-)




ExSteelAgain -> RE: Dominance, and Power (5/10/2008 11:25:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Angelsmile

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Angelsmile, you do realize your description of a dominant as someone who follows may not be a universally accepted one. In your minds eye you have it all figured out, but there are lots of variations in everything we do. Judge the end results and don't label everyone who doesn't fit your mold as a lawbreaker and sick.


Have a closer look. That is of course no labeling but I was sure that answer would come :-)


Glad I could supply it.




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