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RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 6:45:03 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Prevention and education are what we have been doing for years - but unless the social framework is strengthened it is largely a waste of time and resources. We cannot tell people to behave and at the same time provide no incentive to behave and every incentive and no real penalty for misbehaviour, and expect it to stick.

E

No punishment.
No prevention.
No education.

So what is your solution? Don't rant about what doesn't work; say something about what will.


How do you get to that? What I said was that prevention and education are pointless unless there is a stronger social framework.

I even offered in broad terms how I would see a solution coming about - stronger penalties for misbehaviour, and incentives for social behaviour.

To achieve the first part requires an overhaul of the entire justice system. To achieve the second requires an overhaul of the socio-economic model.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 6:51:55 AM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I'm not sure I agree with you... I don't think there has been any real effort on the part of society in general to educate its offsprings against the dangers of the culture of greed and acquisition.

I blame the corporations: their fucked up work ethics and pernicious advertising and brainwashing are largely responsible for the ills you are denouncing.

They are the ones that should be made to pay damages; and make them pay for schools, and pay the teachers better salaries, while we're at it.


"There is no such thing as society" to educate anyone about anything. That is a huge part of how we got here - not just the greed culture (which is human nature) but the rubbishing of the elder and wiser as the gap between generations gets wider, regardless of actual age differentials.

And is there any real culture? Is it not more the case that culture as it is normally understood no longer has primacy and the only culture is raw basic human nature as the lowest common denominator?

When we produce a society which is predicated on this lowest common denominator, should we be at all surprised that our society is distinguishable from that of a pack of hyenas only by virtue of our technologies?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 6:54:21 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

"There is no such thing as society"



You loose me when you quote Thatcher  .

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RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 6:55:35 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Every generation thinks that the new generation is more degenerate than they were in their youth.

I shudder to think what it was like in Dickens' London: do you truly believe things were better then?


Yup, its such a fantastic thing about history we can look back on things, so in this vein lets look at past criminal punishment, branding, hanging, transportation, all things we now gasp at, Society was modeled on the idea that the fault was in the body so punish the body. This idea has shifted to the mind so change the mind, how do we know which is right? Neither stopped crime and seriously some pretty awful things happened back then too.

I mean this is gross and a horrible thing, but is it the youth of today? Yeah maybe young people want to grow up quicker, but whos fault is that? Isnt that jsut society? Back in the day there was no real childhood as soon as they could children would be treated as adults, sent to work, Childhood is a relatively modern construct, teenage even more so.

Maybe society is going to the dogs but havent people been saying that for ages and hasnt it often been youth that are targeted? - When rock and roll first became popular as an example it was seen as a sign of anarchic youth and all that. nothing changes, teddy boys and suede heads and violent knife fights and brawls.


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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 7:01:04 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Prevention and education are what we have been doing for years - but unless the social framework is strengthened it is largely a waste of time and resources. We cannot tell people to behave and at the same time provide no incentive to behave and every incentive and no real penalty for misbehaviour, and expect it to stick.

E

No punishment.
No prevention.
No education.

So what is your solution? Don't rant about what doesn't work; say something about what will.


How do you get to that? What I said was that prevention and education are pointless unless there is a stronger social framework.

I even offered in broad terms how I would see a solution coming about - stronger penalties for misbehaviour, and incentives for social behaviour.

To achieve the first part requires an overhaul of the entire justice system. To achieve the second requires an overhaul of the socio-economic model.

E

I get to that point because you're using a lot of words but not saying anything of substance. You want change, but you have yet to state with specificity what change you want. Without specifics, what have you accomplished?

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 7:20:07 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		So, you want me to publish an entire manifesto here on CM, with costed accounting for each measure and requisite tax income and sources presumably?

Such a project is not beyond me, but to produce such is not a matter of a few moments and would not be suitable material for this site. Who exactly is prepared to wait for several months for my post and who exactly would be prepared to read it when it was completed in all of its thousands of pages glory I wonder?

I have stated the broad methodology I would adopt - overhauling the justice system and overhauling the socio-economic model. I will state the broad policy objectives too which are to produce a better functioning society and nation by making it inclusive with opportunity for all to achieve, with more significant penalties for those who choose not to take advantage of the opportunity to achieve in a socially beneficial way. To produce a coherent society and nation where the interests of the individual are identical with the interests of the whole, and vice versa. To produce a society and nation which is empowered thereby and a government which represents the interests of the people, not of overseas financiers or minority interest groups. And to produce a society and nation which recognises that each person is unique and that to throw anyone away as our current model does, is wholly misguided and represents a direct loss to the common wealth.

Now, am I a fascist or a commie, I wonder?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 7:23:49 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Maybe society is going to the dogs but havent people been saying that for ages and hasnt it often been youth that are targeted? - When rock and roll first became popular as an example it was seen as a sign of anarchic youth and all that. nothing changes, teddy boys and suede heads and violent knife fights and brawls.



You're right, they have been saying that for ages; and adolescence is a very modern invention (post WWII).

I didn't like being pursued by national front skinheads as a little girl; thankfully, they've been mostly eradicated, as a fashion movement anyway...

PS: edit to correct a generality.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/3/2008 7:24:29 AM >

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RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 7:25:35 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		well as Pink Floyed said,  all we are is bricks in the wall.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 7:31:24 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Implant criminals like this with a gps monitor set in the heavy bone structure-and track them 24 7 after release. That should be a pretty ample deterent. It would also be nice if the device could cause excruciating pain any time they got within 100 yards of  a former victim, carrying a triggering device.

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I'm not taking custom orders.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 7:32:18 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Well well well do I detect LadyE having a change of heart. Throwing away  the soft soap, discarding those Sky Pies. Can this be true I arsk myself ?

Hard line sentences applied early in a young criminal's career is the answer. Hard labour , unremitting hard work with corporal punishment to ensure the work is completed.
If necessary they will have to be broken, just like a wilfull horse.
Thats the treatment young hard cases should.get.
Lets try it. I know it would work.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 7:38:17 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I think it should be hard work-with the pittance they make getting paid out to the victim. Something to think about while breaking rocks. ;)

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My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 7:43:11 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		The national front skinhead is out of sight, now they have bigger bellies and are skinheads out of necessity, not choice.  They call themselves the BNP and work closely with UKIP at a grassroots level.  That's the source of the hysteria about white girls being pimped out.  Drugs has always been closely connected with organised prostitution but to allow the state the right to ban prostitution outright - thereby telling people what they may do with their own bodies - is a road to be travelled lightly only by the most self-aggrandizing among us.

How could the state effectively police the private conversations and interactions of sex worker and client? 

For the safety of sex workers, of all races and genders, it is illegal here to profit from immoral earnings and that edict should be enough, when properly applied.  To protect innocents - those who are not seeking to buy sexual services - it is illegal to solicit.

If the girls given as an example in the OP had reported the original crime, they might have been better off.  More draconian laws are just an ego trip for people who perhaps enjoy policing the sex lives of others more than they realise.  If young people are being abducted and coerced, we already have laws aplenty to punish those who inflict such suffering.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 7:46:08 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Oh no Seeks. You seem to have fallen into the same misunderstanding as many here regarding my position - that I think we need Chinese style repression.

Such repression is not effective and certainly not suited to our situation or needs. Whilst we need to get tougher on poor behaviour, there is a point at which such a move becomes counter productive to the overall aim.

And getting tougher, without providing the socio-economic environment whereby to provide incentive for better behaviour (better in the sense of not being detrimental to others and the whole), is not an answer in itself.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 7:58:41 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		This socio economic model you want to alter, wouldn't you have to change into Kommissar Ellen to do it ?
Freedom is the best option, with the boundaries clearly set.
If there is serious dissent on where those boundaries should be  then always decide in favour of maximising freedom.

For example I think both prostitution and drug taking , for some drugs anyway, should not be illegal.
Similarly with something I personally dont appreciate much , male homosexuality. Yes I do know it isnt illegal, I am trying to make the point that it is not my moral/personal view that should prevail.

Female homosexuality should be broadcast on late night television. That would keep the troublemaking little rascals off the streets.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/3/2008 8:00:22 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 8:12:31 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		As you said so well, the ideas of the national front have filtered through into mainstream politics; "decent" (I use the word lightly) parties have found that a sprinkle of fasicsm goes a long way in rallying the electorate behind them (why are people so full of fears and hatred? Any idea?).

It's always 'the other' that's responsible for social problems; it's about time we acknowledged that we are all members of this ill society (yes, it DOES exist) and as such, that we all bear a responsibility for whatever's going on within it. Let's stop pointing the finger: it's just plain wrong.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 8:14:41 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Seeks, if it was up to me, you'd be sentenced to 20 lashes for wearing that wig  .

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 8:22:25 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		FR:
How about we take the thugs who pimp these girls out and make them bitches and whore them out.
Making the punishment fit the crime could work.
thompson

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 8:44:39 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So, you want me to publish an entire manifesto here on CM, with costed accounting for each measure and requisite tax income and sources presumably?

Such a project is not beyond me, but to produce such is not a matter of a few moments and would not be suitable material for this site. Who exactly is prepared to wait for several months for my post and who exactly would be prepared to read it when it was completed in all of its thousands of pages glory I wonder?

I have stated the broad methodology I would adopt - overhauling the justice system and overhauling the socio-economic model. I will state the broad policy objectives too which are to produce a better functioning society and nation by making it inclusive with opportunity for all to achieve, with more significant penalties for those who choose not to take advantage of the opportunity to achieve in a socially beneficial way. To produce a coherent society and nation where the interests of the individual are identical with the interests of the whole, and vice versa. To produce a society and nation which is empowered thereby and a government which represents the interests of the people, not of overseas financiers or minority interest groups. And to produce a society and nation which recognises that each person is unique and that to throw anyone away as our current model does, is wholly misguided and represents a direct loss to the common wealth.

Now, am I a fascist or a commie, I wonder?

E

With what you're describing here, you're a Marxist (classic protean Communist), with more of bend towards Trotsky than Lenin.

My view of things is that your objectives are inherently self-defeating, because the interests of the individual never align perfectly with the interests of a larger group. Perception is too variable, desire too demanding, to allow for such perfect alignment to occur naturally.

It is worth noting that totalitarian systems, from the Roman Empire on through the Soviet Union and China, are more capricious and less moral than democratically derived systems.

My argument is ever for individual freedom and liberty, with the full brunt of consequence coming down on each individual for whatever choices he or she makes, and whatever acts he or she commits.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 8:50:42 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

With what you're describing here, you're a Marxist (classic protean Communist), with more of bend towards Trotsky than Lenin.



There we go again... someone asks a question jokingly, and they get stuck with the wrong label. Why the need for labels anyway?

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade - 4/3/2008 9:03:24 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

This socio economic model you want to alter, wouldn't you have to change into Kommissar Ellen to do it ?
Freedom is the best option, with the boundaries clearly set.
If there is serious dissent on where those boundaries should be  then always decide in favour of maximising freedom.



I lost my long and detailed reply Seeks, but here is the essence - yes we need more intervention but not much more, and we need to retreat a little from the internationalist approach.

Its more a case of prioritising what we do. The costs of playing Empire could go a long way if spent on other things - such as training our own to build the x million houses we're told we need by 20something and which at the moment we're relying on imported labour to do, with consequent adverse effects all round.

And freedom is not a problem - but there should not be freedom to act in ways detrimental to others or the whole, which includes the activities of certain parties in our country and overseas.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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