RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade

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NeedToUseYou -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 9:06:26 AM)
The answer IMO, is to make fewer acts illegal. If prostitution was legal, there would be little of the kind of prostitution in the OP. Why? Because legal brothels, will counter the illegal prostitution. What I mean by that is, let's say I opened a newly "legal brothel", there is no way I'm going to let skank crack whores hang out in the area, because it'd cost me money, because no good paying customers are going to want to go to a crack den for sex. So, You have one highly motivated private organization, that will combat illegal prostitution in a few block area around the place multiply that by 20 of these high tax revenue(government influence) businesses, and you got a pretty powerful deterrent. It just would be good for business. Another effect is many of the old customers won't go to crack heads for a booty call if they can afford not to, because the legal brothels will be disease free and safe. So, just naturally the the illegal prostitutes would lose many of their higher class clients to the legal brothels. The answer isn't draconian measures it is to remove all the false crimes from the system that create an illegal market and invite all the wrong types to participate in an otherwise relatively benign activity. Legalizing prostitution, would undoubtedly reduce drug use as well, if it was mandated that with disease testing they'd be drug tested regularly. So, let's see, a smoking hot chick, could make a few hundred dollars an hour, as long as she stays drug free, and disease free, under a legal system versus an illegal system the woman will be encouraged to become drug addicted and broke, in order to keep her under the power of the pimp. Drugs, while I'm still debating internally about complete freedom of drug use, I see know point at all throwing anyone in jail for pot, acid, mushrooms. Those are pretty benign in comparison to meth, crack, etc... So, again you have new legal business opportunities to sell pot if you legalized it, removing a million or so from the now "illegal" crowd, and participating in a open choice based system. I'm no expert in England's laws, but you guys sound like a mild variation when compared to the U.S. laws on most things. Both are completely stupid, in that they make relatively harmless and manageable acts criminal offenses punishable by jail, and only increasing the likely hood a person will turn even worse. More freedom is the answer not less. The club should only be used for the hard core crimes that are almost universally agreed upon, in my mind true crimes, like rape, murder, theft.

LadyEllen -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 9:09:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol As you said so well, the ideas of the national front have filtered through into mainstream politics; "decent" (I use the word lightly) parties have found that a sprinkle of fasicsm goes a long way in rallying the electorate behind them (why are people so full of fears and hatred? Any idea?). It's always 'the other' that's responsible for social problems; it's about time we acknowledged that we are all members of this ill society (yes, it DOES exist) and as such, that we all bear a responsibility for whatever's going on within it. Let's stop pointing the finger: it's just plain wrong. Is this a hijack or a misunderstanding? As far as I'm aware, the gangs come from all ethnic backgrounds, as indeed was reported in the programme referred to in the OP. Whats plain wrong is that both the right and the left, have such a vested interest in ensuring some groups remain distinct that they refuse to countenance any other situation whereby we can speak of "us" and mean all of us. E

LadyEllen -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 9:18:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 With what you're describing here, you're a Marxist (classic protean Communist), with more of bend towards Trotsky than Lenin. My view of things is that your objectives are inherently self-defeating, because the interests of the individual never align perfectly with the interests of a larger group. Perception is too variable, desire too demanding, to allow for such perfect alignment to occur naturally. It is worth noting that totalitarian systems, from the Roman Empire on through the Soviet Union and China, are more capricious and less moral than democratically derived systems. My argument is ever for individual freedom and liberty, with the full brunt of consequence coming down on each individual for whatever choices he or she makes, and whatever acts he or she commits. Its a shame you see me as a communist - I'd have preferred to be named a fascist (they have such better uniforms) I am not advocating totalitarianism, I am advocating measures by which to put humpty back together again, which is as close as we can get and ought to get to uniformity. But it is your last point which raises something important - because it is exactly that people have total freedom to do as they please, without any consequence of any significance that accounts for much of the problem. And that works both ways. Whilst there is little significant consequence for poor behaviour or wrong choices, there is equally little significant consequence in terms of benefit or advantage to good behaviour and right choices. E

kittinSol -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 9:22:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou no good paying customers are going to want to go to a crack den for sex I'm not quite sure about that.

kittinSol -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 9:23:20 AM)
Sorry - didn't mean to hijack. I was following on from RL's post. My humble apologies.

Politesub53 -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 9:39:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol I'm not sure I agree with you... I don't think there has been any real effort on the part of society in general to educate its offsprings against the dangers of the culture of greed and acquisition. I blame the corporations: their fucked up work ethics and pernicious advertising and brainwashing are largely responsible for the ills you are denouncing. They are the ones that should be made to pay damages; and make them pay for schools, and pay the teachers better salaries, while we're at it. Whats any of this got to do with drugs and prostitution. There is so much education about these two subjects, yet it isnt effective. i know many parents who dont touch drugs yet have seen their kids turn to it through peer pressure, despite constant warnings and being grounded. i dont see how you manage to get a link between prostitution and work ethics.

kittinSol -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 9:43:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 i dont see how you manage to get a link between prostitution and work ethics. Huh... want me to make you an appointment with the ophtalmologist :-p ?

Politesub53 -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 9:51:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks That's the source of the hysteria about white girls being pimped out. How on earth do you conclude its hysteria. Other than one tv show that was supported by official figures, the subject is rarely mentioned. If you saw the show it did say it was mainly what girls getting sucked into this, it also said that the colour of the men involved varied from area to area. Nothing racial about that, just fact.

LadyEllen -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 9:55:00 AM)
Its the "me, now" culture thats links it all together PS53 - a culture in which we are willing participants every one and which (if not deliberately engineered by the market) is certainly accentuated by the market's response to it. I must have everything I want, now. I must be allowed to do as I please, regardless of anyone else. I must not be expected to work for my living I should be provided for, just for existing I must be treated as royalty by everyone or else I must be allowed to show no manners to anyone I must be treated as an adult, though clearly I'm not I must be able to have sex when I want, even if the woman is a slave and above all, I must not suffer any ill effects from any of this nor be held accountable Reading that through, it strikes me that it could in the main be applied to any toddler at the tantrum stage. Is this the cause of our problems? That we have bred a whole country full of immature children masquerading as adults under the care of a parent called the state who "loves" them so much that they are allowed to get away with anything and provided for, whatever they do? A whole nation of spoiled brats? And because these brats run the market too, they do exactly as their parents raised them to do, in the business world too? E

Politesub53 -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 10:36:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 i dont see how you manage to get a link between prostitution and work ethics. Huh... want me to make you an appointment with the ophtalmologist :-p ? You went off into a tangent about work ethics ect. Im merely asking what the link is.

Politesub53 -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 10:39:44 AM)
Lady Ellen, i dont think for in minute you actually believe the whole country is like that. Its probably all Thatchers fault anyhow [;)]

kittinSol -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 10:54:22 AM)
What tangent about work ethics, politesub? I just drew the conclusion that the main reason why society is sick is because of the push for senseless consumption that is the agenda of corporations worldwide. Don't think, consume. It's obvious that their work ethics (the rat race) are partly responsible for the mess we're in. I believe my comment had its place in a discussion about fucked up teenagers and the yoof of today and gang-owned prostitution.

kittinSol -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 10:56:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Its probably all Thatchers fault anyhow [;)] I couldn't agree more. It's only a shame her mind has departed from her brain :-) . How I partied the day she resigned!

LadyEllen -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 11:03:00 AM)
Not the whole country no - but a large proportion could be identified with at least some of those ideas and a smaller proportion with nearly all of them. Whilst it would be interesting to allocate blame (and I do believe the 80s provided a strong impulse in all this, but the roots may be much farther back), I'm more interested in identifying the problem than anything else. Knowing the problem may indicate the solutions. But if my "toddler analysis" is the nature of the problem, then the problem may well be ultimately in the welfare state coupled with an over liberal social approach and the vulnerability to which we're subject as we move down the path to internationalism. We can intervene to control and limit the effects of internationalism without becoming isolationist, but it would be a very painful journey for all to get to where we'd prefer to be. But I dont believe there is any stomach to remove the welfare state as our greatest achievement for we plebs of the last century. So then the one lever left to us which we can pull is with regard to the over liberal social approach. If we compared the nation to my toddler, then there is no way we'd withdraw food and healthcare and we couldnt wholly withdraw him from contact with other toddlers, but we could impose a more suitable form of child rearing such that he understood right from wrong, good manners and the like. E

Politesub53 -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 11:04:53 AM)
Well i still dont see the link with work ethics and ums going off the rails Kittin. I do think the media have a lot to answer for, making everything seem glamorous and acceptable. Like you, im not keen on all this constant "must have" advertising either. You must be the only one who partied at the thought of John Major becomming PM. It could have been worse and been Heseltine i guess. [;)]

seeksfemslave -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 11:23:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Seeks, if it was up to me, you'd be sentenced to 20 lashes for wearing that wig [8\|] . I do look a little gay dont I he he he he he While there seems to be some agreement that something has gone fundamentally wrong, certainly in the UK and possibly in the US it amazes me how many different explanations are put foreward as to the causes. I expect most here simply by being here show that they favour permissiveness so that they at least may indulge their own little kink, but permissiveness can go too far. One major cause of the problems we see about us is the belief that everyone's values/behaviour patterns are equal and deserving of respect. I know that idea is wrong. Social control, discipline and hierarchy are an absolute must. It is the lack of the application of such control coupled with the economic consequences of Globalism that are the root of the problem. Possibly carnt do much about Globalism, unless it causes really major economic disruption, but Social Discipline can be and should be reinstituted ....forthwith. For example the persistant thief must not be led to believe that he is an innocent participant in the upset that his callous mindless indifference causes. Deal with the little sod, early and hard. He does not need understanding he needs to understand that what he is doing is wrong. and Sufficient force will be used to stop it. The sooner he learns that then the less of that force will he experience.

LadyEllen -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 11:28:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Seeks, if it was up to me, you'd be sentenced to 20 lashes for wearing that wig [8\|] . I do look a little gay dont I.he he he he he Nah. I dont think Disco Stu is gay. E

RealityLicks -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 11:52:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks That's the source of the hysteria about white girls being pimped out. How on earth do you conclude its hysteria. Other than one tv show that was supported by official figures, the subject is rarely mentioned. If you saw the show it did say it was mainly what girls getting sucked into this, it also said that the colour of the men involved varied from area to area. Nothing racial about that, just fact. These are two versions of this story from the regional and the national press. It would be easy to supply several more but perhaps you should search for yourself. http://www.lancashireeveningtelegraph.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2147040.mostcommented.panorama_show_on_teen_prostitutes_in_east_lancs.php http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2237940.ece I'm sure you'd get a fair bit of joy from the Daily Mail, if you don't already. The story has been forthcoming for some time. The BNP spun a prostitution story to appear that Asians in Lancashire and Yorkshire were grooming UM prostitutes and have also claimed that the money from this and the drugs trade is used to "fund jihad". Mainstream news sources, in keeping with the growing tendency to characterise any resistance to racism as "PC gorn mad" have had to weigh putting out a water-cooler story against proper contextualising and it seems the former concern has won. The NSPCC have made clear that UM prostitutes continue to be trafficked to the UK from Asia and Africa as well as Eastern Europe. There's a breakdown of their report contained here: http://www.nspcc.org.uk/whatwedo/latestnews/thousands_of_children_trafficked_into_britain_every_year_18113011_htm_wdn45346.html It seems this is less newsworthy, for some reason. In my view, a criminal is a criminal and should be treated as such, whatever their background or that of their victim. I am not convinced by claims that the police fear to act because of the criminals race; I see that as senior officers avoiding complex cases so that they can vindicate their tendency to go after softer targets. Calling this a "new stock in trade" is a sign of having been mislead and while I'm sure LadyE is quite concerned about exploitation of any individual, I don't get why a healthy dose of cynicism isn't being applied to this, as every news story. TV news is mass entertainment and what they're selling, it seems you're buying.

seeksfemslave -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 12:11:44 PM)
Just to get back to the content of the OP and get up Reality's nose this story of Asian groups grooming young white girls for prostitution was raised by the BNP 2 or 3 years ago. Needless to say the mainstream media put it down to the rantings of mindless Right Wing thugs.

popeye1250 -> RE: drug gangs' new stock in trade (4/3/2008 12:16:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave This socio economic model you want to alter, wouldn't you have to change into Kommissar Ellen to do it ? Freedom is the best option, with the boundaries clearly set. If there is serious dissent on where those boundaries should be then always decide in favour of maximising freedom. For example I think both prostitution and drug taking , for some drugs anyway, should not be illegal. Similarly with something I personally dont appreciate much , male homosexuality. Yes I do know it isnt illegal, I am trying to make the point that it is not my moral/personal view that should prevail. Female homosexuality should be broadcast on late night television. That would keep the troublemaking little rascals off the streets. Here! Here! "Late Night Lesbians" on the telly! Now THAT would keep everyone "off the streets" at night. Lady E, it seems to me that you have two choices here. A. Do nothing. B. Do something about it. I don't understand why people think "the state" should do everything "for" them.

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