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x - 10/5/2005 6:12:58 AM   
MasterDirkNC


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/18/2005
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< Message edited by MasterDirkNC -- 10/5/2005 11:12:29 AM >
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 6:39:43 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDirkNC

One overall set of definitions, one generally accepted discipline, and one basic set of guidelines for the training of submissives, as well as Dominants, would help to define the lifestyle, and return control to the Dominants. Common sense indicates that those expected to rule, to train, and to identify the submissives, should control the lifestyle and the relationships that develop as a result of it.



You know, someone or some group giving me guidelines really undermines what I want from being dominant -- freedom to be fully myself.

If I want to know if someone has experience -- I ask them, others, I look into the clubs or organizations and events they've been to, and I talk to them. If they want to see my experience, I offer them a resume of sorts and some people to contact.

I don't think these relationships should be easy to start, I don't think there should be shortcuts to gathering information on your own.

I'm all about education. I was on the executive board of Conversio Virium in NYC where I co-hosted then hosted the Applemunch and attended TES meetings fairly regularly. I was on the steering committee of Headspace at IUB where I was education coordinator for five years. I've spoke to vanilla in classrooms and I've give workshops or hosted discussion groups for kinky folks at several events.

Yet even with all of this I would never support a national or even local set of guidelines and certifications.

Every now and again I see these ideas about making universal or national guidelines and schools and certification and whatnot. That has never existed in this subculture(s) and I doubt it ever will, at least not for me and mine.

If someone else is certified by some group, that just means its a group I check out and people I talk to; I would never consider that qualifications to scene with me or mine. Me and mine are earned through personal trust and personal communication. The other stuff just shows me you've worked on getting information at best.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to MasterDirkNC)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 6:46:31 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDirkNC
One overall set of definitions, one generally accepted discipline, and one basic set of guidelines for the training of submissives, as well as Dominants, would help to define the lifestyle, and return control to the Dominants.

You had me until here, really. I was digging with you until this.

How do you reconcile THIS statement with your previous statement that independence is one of the greatest strengths of WIITWD?

And how does a dominant lose control just because they don't share the same exact vocabulary as the general public?

quote:

Common sense indicates that those expected to rule, to train, and to identify the submissives, should control the lifestyle and the relationships that develop as a result of it.

Well no common sense indicates no such thing. Common sense and real life experience shows us that it is the people themselves as a group who decide what terms are relevant and that there is always repeated and endless semantic debates within any sub culture.

I'd be quite amused to see a dominant stand up and say, by virtue of somehow being oriented as a dominant that they are more qualified to help shape the lexicon of our sub-culture than perhaps a submissive who had a PhD in linguistics.

Now, of course the dominants should have the authority in their own personal relationships. Of course they should define their own vocabulary for themselves. That's the whole independence thing. In my experience, relationships themselves are never controlled. Relationships are simply organic and flowing. It is the behavior and perspectives which can be controlled.

It's when you start taking it out of THEIR house/relationship and into MY house/relationship that we have issues.
quote:


If a Dominant can indicate that they have been trained in the basics, then the submissive can be assured that they won’t have to provide the training, and they can focus on their submission.

And don't they already do this and allow the subs to choose to become involved with them?

quote:

What do Dominants what from submissives? From slaves?

Recognition of and adherence to the dominants authority. Anything beyond that is too individual to list.
quote:


What do submissives want from Dominants? From Masters and Mistrisses?

Recognition of and adherence to the dominants authority. Anything beyond that is too individual to list.
quote:


What definitions and terms should all Dominants know? Submissives?

Every person in every relationship should understand the expectations and commitments, in the long term, to which they are agreeing to. However you choose to define or phrase them is up to you.
quote:


Should Dominants be trained as submissives, then as Dominants?

If they want.

quote:

Or be mentored by older more experienced Dominants?

If they want.

quote:

Many submissives feel that Dominants who were once submissive understand them better, others feel that those Dominants are more apt to Switch.

Bully for them. Generalized statements are always invalid when applied to individuals.
quote:


How can Switches be viewed with more respect?

By not allowing disrespect when it pops up.

quote:

Are they in a transitional phase

Sometimes.

quote:

, or are they true Switches, able to Dominate or submit, depending on the partner, or the situation? Or simply their mood?

Sometimes.

I welcome any feedback, regardless of your level of experience, or your role.


(in reply to MasterDirkNC)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 7:34:23 AM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDirkNC
One of the strengths of this lifestyle is independence. The independent development of discipline and service is also the greatest weakness of the lifestyle today. Dominants and submissives meet in chat rooms and websites and spar and fence, each applying personal definitions one to the other. The submissive cult is growing, yearning to be safe and to serve (and top from the bottom), and it is attempting to define the Dominant. Dominants see submissive power growing and yield publicly, adopting the submissive definitions, submissive speak, becoming little more than the whip hands for a growing herd of untrained, undisciplined, harpies. Paying to play in other words by conforming.


Do I understand you to be saying that personal definitions lack validity? Favoring of a Cookie Cutter, one size fits all or you dont belong definition?

quote:

One overall set of definitions, one generally accepted discipline, and one basic set of guidelines for the training of submissives, as well as Dominants, would help to define the lifestyle, and return control to the Dominants. Common sense indicates that those expected to rule, to train, and to identify the submissives, should control the lifestyle and the relationships that develop as a result of it.


Wow, where will you find those so willing to be Cloned? Where does the individual, the personal
preferences, limits and such come into such a Fairy Tale? Common sense indicates each of us is Unique, we've not passed thru 20, 30, or 40 years as unmolded clay, and i'm not speaking only for Submissives, this applies to Dominants also. What you believe will never be exactly the same as the next. What you are proposing is rigid, possibly it would work in the world of Cyber, but where, how could this be true in Life?

quote:

What do submissives want from Dominants?


A blanket statement? Impossible in my mind. Each interaction with another is formed by the two personalitys fit, what one brings out in another. This is where that initial seperation begins (fill in the blanks to fit your needs) "you may be a _____, but your not my _____"

quote:

What definitions and terms should all Dominants know? Submissives?


Only those that effect them!

quote:

Should Dominants be trained as submissives, then as Dominants? Or be mentored by older more experienced Dominants? Many submissives feel that Dominants who were once submissive understand them better, others feel that those Dominants are more apt to Switch.


Train, cough........ Have you ever attempted to train an animal for something it's not made for?
Bird Dog to become an aid for the blind? Let me try this another way, how about taking a factory 4 cyl engine and dropping it into a Kenworth? What I'm getting at is if the fit isnt right, NO amount of training will make it sucessful. It may look like perfection, but it's function will be it's downfall.

quote:

How can Switches be viewed with more respect? Currently, while many do treat them with the respect that they deserve, many more treat them with the same sort of disdain that the vanilla world tends to apply to bi-sexuals. Specifically, bi-sexual men. Bi-sexuality in women is almost universally fantasized over, if not accepted, while bi-sexuality in men is viewed as weak mindedness by the majority of the gay community, and as gay by the straight community. Switches in the lifestyle are generally viewed likewise as weak minded by Dominants, and submissive by submissives. Are they in a transitional phase, or are they true Switches, able to Dominate or submit, depending on the partner, or the situation? Or simply their mood?

I welcome any feedback, regardless of your level of experience, or your role.


Switches IMHO are just having fun, and there isnt a thing wrong with it........
Again it's the interaction between individuals that make the dynamics.

Q

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to MasterDirkNC)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 8:01:44 AM   
hawk58


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline 		Too broad, too many generalizations, and stereotyping. What about idividualty? Why get caught up on symantics, lables and definitions?

For me, i have been trained by those i have served in the past, as well as the One i now serve. Whether or not another submissive (male or female) tops from the bottom, trains their dominant, or is trained by their dominant, is really none of my concern, and its not my place to judge.

As to prior training my Dominant has; when i came to him, i asked where he got his lifestyle expereince and education. I got to know him, his ways and his needs. No, He has not trained as sub or a bottom. Though any toy he has ever used on me, He has tried on himself first. Any task He has given me, is not above or beyond anything he can do or expect from himself.

Switches? Well, He is straight, Dominant. I am bisexaul, slave who occassionaly can top another sub, slave, bottom; but only with His permission.

respectfully,
-dove

(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 8:18:06 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Roars with laughter ... I wouldn't try this one one for size in the Gorean Community lad. They will eat you for breakfast.

I can see why you may take this line, previous posters have discected your statements so there is no need here. However the fact is that this happens with a number of people newish in one lifestyle or another. Bloody Hell the pagan Community tried it too. Even if this standardisation took place there a large number of individuals who would need to make personal modifications to suit their needs so the whole exercise would be like blowing up a gooses arse before it farts ~ pointless.

let me ask you one question. I cant be bothered to check your profile so howabout posting and givong all these good folk here your experience and qualifications for making this attempt at standardisation???????? (This is not a personal attack, but a healthy dose of grizzly curiosity).


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to MasterDirkNC)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 8:23:25 AM   
target


Posts: 46
Status: offline 		I don't see "submissive power" growing in any menacing way. I do see Dominants getting increasingly detached from reality. subs should have no wants, subs should have no needs other than... Get a dog. My boys are fierce and fine. They have given me their very lives and its a responsibility, not a whim. If i ever develope the its all me attitude I hope someone knocks me down a few pegs. I'll have it coming.

(in reply to hawk58)
Profile   Post #: 7
x - 10/5/2005 8:37:41 AM   
MasterDirkNC


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/18/2005
Status: offline 		x

< Message edited by MasterDirkNC -- 10/5/2005 11:14:10 AM >

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 8:48:49 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDirkNC

Thank you. I needed a good laugh too. Before I reply, let me pull out my comic book collection and learn more about the 'Gorean Community':)

Have a nice day.

*sighs as hopes for a mature logical introspective discussion crash to the ground in a horrific explosion*

Although Iron you have to admit, your writing style does often come across as condescending.

(in reply to MasterDirkNC)
Profile   Post #: 9
x - 10/5/2005 8:54:39 AM   
MasterDirkNC


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/18/2005
Status: offline 		x

< Message edited by MasterDirkNC -- 10/5/2005 11:13:08 AM >

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 8:55:44 AM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

*sighs as hopes for a mature logical introspective discussion crash to the ground in a horrific explosion*



I'm putting my money on the Bear.......



quote:

'basic training' is a concept long accepted in most military organizations. It allows for future training in specializations, as this sort of training would allow Dominants to add their own, as well as submissives.


And what becomes of those who cant get thru basic? Those that have the desire yet something keeps them from being a perfect fit? It seems your wish is for the Elite, not the average human.
again, just my .02

Q


< Message edited by Quivver -- 10/5/2005 9:19:31 AM >

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 9:20:15 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDirkNC

Thank you. I needed a good laugh too. Before I reply, let me pull out my comic book collection and learn more about the 'Gorean Community':)

Have a nice day.

*sighs as hopes for a mature logical introspective discussion crash to the ground in a horrific explosion*

Although Iron you have to admit, your writing style does often come across as condescending.


Does it indeed? never noticed that and certainly never intended. However in some cases including dealing with what appears to be an immature and inexperienced twirp, I treat them like I would treat and teanager or young adult who is filled with self importance and no experience and little intelligence... with contempt not condescending.... For most other posts I make and for people like yourself who I know will give as good as they get and who have a SoH, I just love a little leg pulling at times. If lass, you knew me (that bloody duck pond again) you'd know it is not in my natuire to be condescending. I have found that many people inexperiended in the areas in which I am to be found, have taught me as much as I them...... Still judging by the messages I get complementing me of something I have written, peraps even the apparent condecending tone is like many things in communicating a matter of perspective..

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 9:26:45 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

I'd be quite amused to see a dominant stand up and say, by virtue of somehow being oriented as a dominant that they are more qualified to help shape the lexicon of our sub-culture than perhaps a submissive who had a PhD in linguistics.


I see what you are getting at, however I'd be alot more interested in what a submissive poet had to offer in shaping our lexicon than a linguist.

Anyway, good luck making your BDSM certification proposal go through. I don't see how you can regulate and certify something so essentially intimate and individual as relationships.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 9:27:41 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
Does it indeed? never noticed that and certainly never intended. However in some cases including dealing with what appears to be an immature and inexperienced twirp, I treat them like I would treat and teanager or young adult who is filled with self importance and no experience and little intelligence... with contempt not condescending.... For most other posts I make and for people like yourself who I know will give as good as they get and who have a SoH, I just love a little leg pulling at times. If lass, you knew me (that bloody duck pond again) you'd know it is not in my natuire to be condescending. I have found that many people inexperiended in the areas in which I am to be found, have taught me as much as I them...... Still judging by the messages I get complementing me of something I have written, peraps even the apparent condecending tone is like many things in communicating a matter of perspective..


Well I find that by allowing other peoples level of maturity to change MY level of maturity not only gives them too much power, but shows my own lack of control. Also, by ignoring the immaturity and smiling like nothing was wrong, you can often drive the point home much deeper. I should stop before I give away all my secrets. :)

I didn't think you intended to be condescending, I think it's just your way, specially as gorean. I know *I* come across sometimes as unfeeling, arrogant and snide. (OK I KNOW I can be arrogant...) But your "lass" and "lad" and other sort of familiar types of references definitely lend themselves to a tone of condescension rather than devout discussion.

I've learned to ignore it and move to the core of the message, new people don't have that reference.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 9:36:28 AM   
tarnishedhalo777


Posts: 119
Status: offline 		I think the best one can hope for is an honest person that floats their boat.
Personally I wish for a Dom man to guide and polish me as I am interested in the D/s TPE.
I'm not into S & M, one of the reasons I wasn't fulfilled as a Domme,I don't like pain nor was I sadistic when I topped, of course I may have had the wrong bottom,lol.
However, training should best be given,IMO, by the one I surrendered too, but then there should be some sort of basic guideline but I feel it is best negotitated by the parties involved.
I abhor generalizations.
Also there is the issue of when the relationship ends,who undoes the training and restarts the training when a new one begins?
Finding one's niche and partner is no easy feat in BDSM.

_____________________________

I will not die the death of loneliness by being afraid to love and afraid to get hurt. I will not commit figurative suicide by leaving my potential underdeveloped because I am afraid to take risks.

(in reply to MasterDirkNC)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 9:42:38 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
Does it indeed? never noticed that and certainly never intended. However in some cases including dealing with what appears to be an immature and inexperienced twirp, I treat them like I would treat and teanager or young adult who is filled with self importance and no experience and little intelligence... with contempt not condescending.... For most other posts I make and for people like yourself who I know will give as good as they get and who have a SoH, I just love a little leg pulling at times. If lass, you knew me (that bloody duck pond again) you'd know it is not in my natuire to be condescending. I have found that many people inexperiended in the areas in which I am to be found, have taught me as much as I them...... Still judging by the messages I get complementing me of something I have written, peraps even the apparent condecending tone is like many things in communicating a matter of perspective..


Well I find that by allowing other peoples level of maturity to change MY level of maturity not only gives them too much power, but shows my own lack of control. Also, by ignoring the immaturity and smiling like nothing was wrong, you can often drive the point home much deeper. I should stop before I give away all my secrets. :)

I didn't think you intended to be condescending, I think it's just your way, specially as gorean. I know *I* come across sometimes as unfeeling, arrogant and snide. (OK I KNOW I can be arrogant...) But your "lass" and "lad" and other sort of familiar types of references definitely lend themselves to a tone of condescension rather than devout discussion.

I've learned to ignore it and move to the core of the message, new people don't have that reference.



Indeed, I have stated often enough that such terms as lass or lad are as much part of my everyday language as yes or no. Generally it is used in a friendly sence and often as a sign of affection or respect. I do tend when dealing with posts into the US, to remember not to use such expressions as "Jolly good show old son" or many other expressions I'm want to use. With reference to: "I think it's just your way, specially as gorean." I was that was long before Gor, Its simple that I grew up as a member of the aristocracy, and old habbits dont seem to die especially when I see no reason to change them.. Some aspects of my thought and thus writting pattern has been moulded in a similar manner as many here.. Commissioned Military Officer.. there is a certain mind set y'know.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 10:00:15 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

While common sense tells us that we are all individuals, 'basic training' is a concept long accepted in most military organizations. It allows for future training in specializations,

If this is the basis for your arguments, then you're standing on seriously shaky ground.

Faramir can correct me if I'm wrong, but military basic training isn't about developing skills -- it's a socialization process designed to build teamwork, eliminate the unproductive element of individuality and instill a sense of single minded purpose toward the deadly job they have to do. Sure they learn skills along the way, but deer hunters can learn to shoot a gun or folks can take martial arts classes to learn other combat skills. And now we're back to individuals learning the skills they want without basic training.

So far you really haven't said anything that holds up to closer scrutiny. You'll have to excuse us then for the distracting guffaws.

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to MasterDirkNC)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 10:12:24 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDirkNC

I'm glad for any view, and I expected this kind of reaction from some. I apologize for stooping to that level, honestly. I know there are those that follow the Gorean philosphy that aren't horses asses, and I respect them.

To give the old "lad" the list he asked for:

The University of William and Mary

You see. That's not a school that offers any sort of training in the lifestyle. Which was the point I was trying to make, originally. While common sense tells us that we are all individuals, 'basic training' is a concept long accepted in most military organizations. It allows for future training in specializations, as this sort of training would allow Dominants to add their own, as well as submissives.

There are already many standard terms, standard tools, and standard practices. There aren't universal guidelines. This is just a topic of discussion. No one is planning to go down under and start checking for training certificates:)

Any opinions with regard to the topic will be appreciated. Any additional 'lads' or gaffaws will be treated like the distractions they are.

Thanks



Y'see old chap, as I stated in my original post I wasn't "having a go at you" you are the one who saw it as such.... The qualifications I was requesting were regarding your experience in the lifestyle. nothing more. I was trying to ascertain if you were relitively new or had been around the traps for years. The difference is in perspective. If you were newish I would have replied appropriatly, whereas if you were experienced I would have perhaps chosen to debated the matter with you.... Your comments lead me to believe that you may have had some exposure to the military.. So have I , I have degrees also so most things balance them selves out...... I did inviter you do discuss matters on another thread privately which you declined with childish remarks, so I doubt that, with your attitude now, that we have anything further to say to each other.. So I bid you good day.

Thank the powers that be for the blocker system

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to MasterDirkNC)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Basic Training and Guidelines - 10/5/2005 10:40:51 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline 		One of the sad things about some newcomers to the scene is they aspire to being a "wise man" (apologies to Jay) and, instead, put themselves in the position of Britannus who thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature. Or they emulate the blind men in Mullah Nasrudin's classic tail in insisting the entire scene is like what they have experienced.

It is sad because one of the glorious things about the scene is the calidiscope of things to do and ways to relate.

Glory in the panorama of choice!!!


_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to MasterDirkNC)
Profile   Post #: 19
x - 10/5/2005 11:08:01 AM   
MasterDirkNC


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/18/2005
Status: offline 		x

< Message edited by MasterDirkNC -- 10/5/2005 11:13:38 AM >

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 20
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