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RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/7/2008 4:57:16 PM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

True enough, but since most people do equate a gravestone with someones memory, these scum should be caught and punished.


I’m not sure how to respond to this, politesub.
 
It seems as though you are saying the act would be okay, if people did not equate a gravestone with their memory of someone.
 
It seems to me the irresponsibility lies in mistreatment of something that is not theirs; in many cases, a polished, engraved rock. (Though, I did not read the specifics for this case.)
 
What would you suggest should happen to these people, for this irresponsible act?
 
k

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RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/7/2008 9:15:00 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
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From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I am already comfortable with Muslims. And it isn't just Muslims that need to "do" anything, but anyone opposing wrong-doing (as I've said).


but in this case, muslims are the ones charged with opposing the wrong-doing of others who also claim to be muslims (again, i have to point out the irony in this, since most of us don't believe terrorists are actually observant muslims, and most terrorists don't actually believe we are observant muslims either). so this is the particular situation we're discussing, and you have yet to present concrete ways in which individual everyday muslims can do this, yet you continue to make it our responsibility rather than the responsibility of those who refuse to wake up and do a google search on "islamic responses to terrorism" (which, by the way, was all it took to come up with those huge, massive lists of media clips of muslim teachers that i posted earlier).
 
quote:

What to do? Oppose the terrorists. Wherever we can. In print, in schools, vocally. Someone says that jihad needs to be waged on the west, or whomever, well, if they mean violence, then denounce it. Governments need to work better with one another stopping violent acts, and promoting peace and understanding. Media needs to do a better job in promoting the majority of Muslims that aren't supportive of terror.


again, what can we do that's concrete, that one person who is worried about getting through school without being buried under medical bills, as i am, or like my sisters are, worried about raising their children well in the jordanian school system, or getting through work every day as a preschool teacher, or keeping their marriage together, or running a shelter for abused muslim women, or teaching about islam and arabic...what can we do? we don't have the time or the energy to grandstand on the media, even if someone would give us a soapbox to step up on. if they did, most people would not want to listen to us anyway, as many of us support non-violent islamist movements and thus don't fit into their "democracy is the only answer" way of doing things nontheless. we do not run governments. we don't own any media conglomerates. how is this our responsibility, and if it is our responsibility, in what way are we supposed to be able to speak out? and i am talking realistically, not vague "well oppose it whenever" solutions. when i wake up tomorrow morning, what can i -do- during my day to make americans less fearful of my existence? when my sisters in saudi, my sisters in jordan, my sisters in britain wake up tomorrow...what can they -do- in the course of their day-to-day life that will make people more comfortable with their existence? if there's supposed to be a course of action muslims around the world are charged with taking to fix this problem...since apparently according to you and just about everyone else it is our problem to change people's minds...then somebody needs to reveal the secret of what exactly it is we can do to change minds. because i have yet to hear any concrete solutions for those of us who make up the average, everyday 99.8% of the ummah.


< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 4/7/2008 9:17:11 PM >

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RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 1:28:43 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

True enough, but since most people do equate a gravestone with someones memory, these scum should be caught and punished.


I’m not sure how to respond to this, politesub.
 
It seems as though you are saying the act would be okay, if people did not equate a gravestone with their memory of someone.
 
It seems to me the irresponsibility lies in mistreatment of something that is not theirs; in many cases, a polished, engraved rock. (Though, I did not read the specifics for this case.)
 
What would you suggest should happen to these people, for this irresponsible act?
 
k


My post was easy enough to understand. Read the second post on the thread to see how i feel.

As for a fitting sentance, thats surely for the courts to decide. However, race hate may be one possible charge. Causing public outrage another, criminal damage a third. So whatever the normal sentance is for these crimes would fit the bill.

Just for the record if you think this crime is only irresponsible, you really ought to think again.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 2:26:07 AM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

My post was easy enough to understand.


Yes, but I try not to assume.

quote:

As for a fitting sentance, thats surely for the courts to decide.


If you’ll forgive me; I was raised on a dream. Let’s pretend it is up to you to decide.

quote:

However, race hate may be one possible charge. Causing public outrage another,criminal damage a third. So whatever the normal sentance is for these crimes would fit the bill.


If this were done by people who were only bored; would it change how you feel?

Part of my point was that these acts do not cause public outrage; the public does that on their own.

Also, I wasn’t asking what they should be charged with, but what should happen to them.

quote:

Just for the record if you think this crime is only irresponsible, you really ought to think again.


Perhaps you would help me by pointing out what I am missing?

k

< Message edited by charmdpetKeira -- 4/8/2008 2:27:28 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 2:33:45 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		First I believe desecrating anyone's grave is a despicable act and should be punished severely.
 
this caught my attention
quote:

hiisannabelle
...since most of us don't believe terrorists are actually observant muslims,...
The problem is that "terrorists" or even suicidal freedom fighters if you will, know that they are observant Muslims, so it matters little what others think.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 4:10:21 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

but in this case, muslims are the ones charged with opposing the wrong-doing of others who also claim to be muslims
 
so this is the particular situation we're discussing, and you have yet to present concrete ways in which individual everyday muslims can do this, yet you continue to make it our responsibility rather than the responsibility of those who refuse to wake up and do a google search on "islamic responses to terrorism" (which, by the way, was all it took to come up with those huge, massive lists of media clips of muslim teachers that i posted earlier).



Where are muslims the only ones being charged with this? 

quote:

again, what can we do that's concrete, that one person who is worried about getting through school without being buried under medical bills, as i am, or like my sisters are, worried about raising their children well in the jordanian school system, or getting through work every day as a preschool teacher, or keeping their marriage together, or running a shelter for abused muslim women, or teaching about islam and arabic...what can we do? we don't have the time or the energy to grandstand on the media, even if someone would give us a soapbox to step up on. if they did, most people would not want to listen to us anyway, as many of us support non-violent islamist movements and thus don't fit into their "democracy is the only answer" way of doing things nontheless. we do not run governments. we don't own any media conglomerates. how is this our responsibility, and if it is our responsibility, in what way are we supposed to be able to speak out? and i am talking realistically, not vague "well oppose it whenever" solutions. when i wake up tomorrow morning, what can i -do- during my day to make americans less fearful of my existence? when my sisters in saudi, my sisters in jordan, my sisters in britain wake up tomorrow...what can they -do- in the course of their day-to-day life that will make people more comfortable with their existence? if there's supposed to be a course of action muslims around the world are charged with taking to fix this problem...since apparently according to you and just about everyone else it is our problem to change people's minds...then somebody needs to reveal the secret of what exactly it is we can do to change minds. because i have yet to hear any concrete solutions for those of us who make up the average, everyday 99.8% of the ummah.


If you would stop misrepresenting me and my views, I would appreciate it. The closest I came to saying anything like that was my initial response to kittin about "muslims and the media" needing to work on these issues; subsequent posts emphasized the need of EVERYONE to do what they can. Didn't they? They surely did.
 
I gave about as concrete examples as I have an interest to. Live an ethical life. Teach your children the same. Don't run the government? Then become involved in doing so. Don't own any media? Then print flyers, or a small-press paper. Write letters to larger papers. Create websites.
 
Non-muslims should do the same; and yes, they should become better educated about Islam. Unfortunately, it's your religion that is being hijacked by  assholes like bin Laden. So, you can either present an alternative (which many already do, and have done), or be silent.........


 

< Message edited by Level -- 4/8/2008 4:17:05 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 5:33:51 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

My post was easy enough to understand.


Yes, but I try not to assume.

quote:

As for a fitting sentance, thats surely for the courts to decide.


If you’ll forgive me; I was raised on a dream. Let’s pretend it is up to you to decide.

quote:

However, race hate may be one possible charge. Causing public outrage another,criminal damage a third. So whatever the normal sentance is for these crimes would fit the bill.


If this were done by people who were only bored; would it change how you feel?

Part of my point was that these acts do not cause public outrage; the public does that on their own.

Also, I wasn’t asking what they should be charged with, but what should happen to them.

quote:

Just for the record if you think this crime is only irresponsible, you really ought to think again.


Perhaps you would help me by pointing out what I am missing?

k


What you are missing is that its a hate crime, not a irresponsible. As for what should happen. I have replied to that, thats why we have a legal system. So if the punishemnt is just a fine, so be it.

These acts do cause outrage, and to suggest otherwise is flippant. If the acts were not acrried out, the public could not get outraged could they, thats unless you are blaming those who are outraged though. For what its worth im not religious, yet still see this as abhorrent. Now if it was boredom, than all the graves would have been damaged and not just a select few. Incidentally there is a recent history of war graves being vandalised in France, including British, and if i recall right, also American.

Why not flip the coin, you tell me what sentance you would give ?


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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 5:48:23 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		A few images of the cemetary which I think will show the desecration was systematic, and not the product of idleness or boredom.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/8/2008 6:15:40 AM >

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RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 6:50:22 AM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

What you are missing is that its a hate crime, not a irresponsible.


I am having a hard time putting value toward this concept. Hate is an emotion. It is my experience, if someone hates something; it is because the something is a representation, or reflection, of some aspect that they do not like in themselves.
 
Perhaps in this case, they are pissed at their inability to get the living to do what they want/see it their way, so that they assault the representation of dis-incorporated bodies, to send the message another way.
 
Seriously though, how much more have they hated, then those who are outraged that they hated, when they equate their loved ones to engraved stones?

quote:


As for what should happen. I have replied to that, thats why we have a legal system.

So if the punishemnt is just a fine, so be it.
 

Damn shame, too.

quote:

These acts do cause outrage, and to suggest otherwise is flippant.
 

The act calls for reaction, how people react is up to them.
 
Because I choose to asses the situation without adding emotional value to inanimate objects, I am not taking it seriously enough?

quote:


If the acts were not acrried out, the public could not get outraged could they, thats unless you are blaming those who are outraged though.
 

If I had not scrapped my teeth on the rail for the bunk bed, my mother wouldn’t have shredded my doll; got it.
 
But I can’t help thinking, if I hadn’t told her the doll was “the something I cared about”, she would never have gotten the idea. Of course now, I can look at it and realize, my mother just over reacted, and I only lost a doll that day.

quote:


For what its worth im not religious, yet still see this as abhorrent. Now if it was boredom, than all the graves would have been damaged and not just a select few. Incidentally there is a recent history of war graves being vandalised in France, including British, and if i recall right, also American.
 

I was only asking if it would make a difference, not suggesting that there was a different reason.

quote:

Why not flip the coin, you tell me what sentance you would give ?
 

I prefer rehabilitation opposed to sentencing. Otherwise you are only creating a more successful criminal.
 
The hate issue is psychological, that can derive from many causes, it is usually conditioned, and is spurred by inaccurate information.
 
Counseling and education
 
Where the damage can be fixed, they should have to do it themselves; supervised of course. And perhaps using their services to help spruce up the place would be a nice touch.
 
The sprucing up might be considered waged, with some part going toward the cost of repairs.
 
The rest of the cost for damage can be worked off by performing similar services, to those who were affected directly by their actions.
 
Best I can do with the limited information on the perpetrators.
 
k

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 6:58:22 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

Best I can do with the limited information on the perpetrators.
 


They have arrested five men. It appears they are linked to the neo-nazi movement. They are politically motivated. Their aim is to create fission and conflict between communities in France.

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/ap/20080408/tfr-pas-de-calais-cimetiere-profanation-8d303c5.html

Nearly a year ago, the same war cemetary was subjected to similar acts of desecration against muslim tombstones - three men had confessed to the crime, explaining that they were motivated by racism.


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RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 7:11:45 AM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

They have arrested five men. It appears they are linked to the neo-nazi movement. They are politically motivated.


Politics is man’s game.
 
To get someone to stop playing a game, the benefit of playing must be taken away.

quote:


Their aim is to create fission and conflict between communities in France.
 

Seems to be working, yes?

quote:

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/ap/20080408/tfr-pas-de-calais-cimetiere-profanation-8d303c5.html


I’m sure it is a good read, you wouldn’t happen to have it in English, would you; public school, what can I say.

quote:


Nearly a year ago, the same war cemetary was subjected to similar acts of desecration against muslim tombstones - three men had confessed to the crime, explaining that they were motivated by racism.
 

What is racism? Hating the differences one sees in another? Dislike of the similarities they see in another? Fear of the unknown?
 
We have got to stop blaming others for our reactions to our emotions.
 
k

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RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 8:40:33 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I must say, I'm at a loss with your post, Keira. What is your take on things?

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RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 9:28:28 AM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I must say, I'm at a loss with your post, Keira. What is your take on things?


I’m unsure what you mean; where was I unclear?
 
k

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 10:16:57 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
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Status: offline 		If  don't miss my guess, Keira is saying that Islamophobia - and by extension other hate crimes, like homophobia, sexism etc - are not really offensive.  Its' simply a matter of not blaming others for one's having emotions.  ie, just because someone burns down the hostel you live in, dumps shit through your letter-box or assaults you (as happened to a French Algerian friend of mine) you should just shrug it off as an individual mindless act, not an organised campaign which can escalate if not dealt with.

I am guessing K, please tell me if that's close.

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RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 11:17:53 AM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I am guessing K, please tell me if that's close.


As close as Pluto is to the Sun. :)
 
I am saying it is important to choose one’s battles wisely, so not to extend so much energy on the smaller battles, that the war is lost.
 
And that responding in an equally radical way, only continues the cycle.
 
I was unaware my opinion on how those who committed this act should be dealt with, automatically signed me up for certain other beliefs.
 
k

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 11:32:21 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Last time I checked, Pluto was closest to Mickey but hey, can't win em all.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 12:34:37 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Give me one good reason why they should: how are the average Muslim guy or gurl in any way responsible for terrorist acts?! You automatically make them related to terrorists because of their religion; it's short-sighted, at best.

Qui tacet consentire videtur -- "He who is silent is presumed to consent".  Islamic terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda and Hezbollah claim to be acting in furtherance of "Islam"--at least their interpretation of Islam.  Implicit in such a claim is the assertion that they speak for all Muslims.

The average Muslim is not responsible for the acts and expressions of Islamic terrorists.  However, prudence suggests they should denounce such acts and expressions as not being consistent with their interpretation of Islam.  Average Muslims owe it to themselves to tell the world that Al Qaeda does  not  speak for them.   They should not, by silence, give consent to terrorism on behalf of all Islam.

In fact, on the whole, "average" Muslims  have told the world exactly this.  Imam Tahirul Qadri denounced Bin Laden in October of 2001, following the 9/11 attacks.  The Islamic Commission of Spain issued a fatwa against Bin Laden  on 11 March 2005, on the anniversary of the Madrid train bombings.  Muslims do speak out against Islamic terrorism, and should continue to speak out.  That is only right and proper.

quote:

You expect the entire Muslim population of the planet to speak in unison against something they have no control over. Did you expect the Catholics of the world to denounce the IRA? Do you see how terrorist groups are motivated by politics before religion?

The Troubles in Northern Ireland have never really been about religion.  The origins of that conflict are far more ethnic than religious; the Catholics are generally the "native" Irish (Celtic) inhabitants of the Emerald Isle, whereas the Protestants are Scottish and English (Ulster Scots and Anglo-Saxon) immigrants sent by the English government to colonize Northern Ireland during the 16th and 17th centuries.  "Catholic" and "Protestant" are merely convenient albeit misleading labels for the two ethnic groups.

Also, the IRA has never espoused a religious ideology.  Al Qaeda and other Islamic terrorist groups have never espoused anything else.

Many terrorist groups are motivated by politics and not religion: the Irish Republican Army, Euskadi Ta Askatasuna, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, and Hamas are a few.  However, many terrorist groups--Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, Fatah al-Islam, Ansar al-Islam, the Al-Faruq Brigades, and Abu Sayyaf, among others--are motivated by religious ideology more than politics.  

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RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 1:24:18 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

They have arrested five men. It appears they are linked to the neo-nazi movement. They are politically motivated.


Neo-nazi movements are heavily infiltrated and directed by the secret services of the various countries. Thus there is no reason to assume that this desecration has not been instigated by the French government.

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RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 1:59:17 PM   
charmdpetKeira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Neo-nazi movements are heavily infiltrated and directed by the secret services of the various countries. Thus there is no reason to assume that this desecration has not been instigated by the French government.


That is a whole different ball game, which calls for a whole different tactic.
 
k

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: French Muslim war graves defaced. - 4/8/2008 2:04:19 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Crackpot theories - Europe has been plagued by neo-nazis for decades. And the French government isn't behind them.



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