RE: depleted Uranium (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/6/2008 7:55:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
so what then,is PAhunk`s "conspiracy" here?

I missed that part.

And what`s his angle ?

He`s always been a sweet and honest man,IMO.

Same concept with DU shells. Don't eat it or 'huff it' and you'll be fine.


Yeah,well that all depends on who the "you" is.

We`re  shooting these poisonous shells all over the place in Iraq and Afghanistan.The dust and residue from the exploding shells doesn`t dissipate.

The very poisonous heavy metal DU, gets into the ground,buildings and neighborhoods,into the water and anything grown in the affected soil.

Years after we leave,those radioactive and highly poisonous heavy metals will be there,hurting innocent people.

That`s the gripe people have with using DU shells.

It`s not just the possible danger posed against our troops.

It`s also and just as importantly,the danger to the people of the nations we`re occupying.

We have an obligation to not leave literally tons of DU,all busted up and sprinkled about the place.



Sanity -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/6/2008 8:49:31 PM)

Happy Jose the janitor clown merrily juggling cfl light bulbs bulbs containing trace amounts of mercury while dancing down the hallways of all our nations' schools and office buildings probably constitute a far more significant health hazard.

But what the hay, happy Jose the clown is saving the planet with all his mercury spillage. So that's alright...



Owner59 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/6/2008 8:59:17 PM)

sooo helpful...

Speaking of mercury...



Muttling -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/6/2008 10:09:19 PM)

Yawn................Combat may be hazardous to your health, any questions?







On the subject of training videos, this looks like something out of the 1960's or 1970's era.   Do you care to get something that it at least 2 decades within our current training videos????



Archer -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/6/2008 10:25:17 PM)

Have to wonder just how many Du Anti tank/ anti armour rounds are being used these days to make the current charge of " We`re  shooting these poisonous shells all over the place in Iraq and Afghanistan." be currently truthfull?????????

Sabot rounds are generally not used to engadge a couple men on a mortar tube, they are not exactly the most effective round available on a tank or bradley vs ground troops.

DU penetrators are used in Sabot Anti tank rounds. they are usefull for penetrating armor, any other use would be inefficient at best and illegal at worst.
HEAT or HEP rounds would be the prefered round for knocking holes in buildings and killing people not inside an armored vehicle. Soldiers are not exactly dumb so the odds are extreamly good that the use of DU rounds has pretty much stopped, when the tanks and other armored vehicles were knocked out.





Real0ne -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/6/2008 10:42:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

Yawn................Combat may be hazardous to your health, any questions?







On the subject of training videos, this looks like something out of the 1960's or 1970's era.   Do you care to get something that it at least 2 decades within our current training videos????




Operation Iraqi Freedom


America rescues the iraqi people from WMD's and promotes freedom in Iraq!

13 New born Iraqi babies.  Arent they cuties?


Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

Iraqi New Born Baby

American Soldier

Adult

Adult


What about our guys?  Over 200,000 (some say its closer to 400,000 now), of our soldiers have gulf war syndrome.   aka: DU poisoning

They bring it home and poison their wives.

Is it ok to do this to the iraqis and afghans?  4.5 billion, (THATS BILLION!) year 1/2 life.

Is your kid in or going to Iraq?  Is it ok to do this to US Citizens?  Our kids?

Military Claims Uranium Radiation is Safe!!!

US Veterans Arrested for speaking out against the use of depleted uranium in Iraq!  (freedom)



DU poisoning







shallowdeep -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/6/2008 11:49:22 PM)

I can understand the comment about conspiracies, as the linked page makes claims that there's a VA study showing 73,846 U.S. soldiers have "perished" from the "bio-chemical warfare" of depleted uranium. Needless to say, this is false. The video itself, while apparently not the most recent version, isn't conspiratorial or inaccurate - but nor is it congruent with the context in which it is placed. It notes risks, but never claims that depleted uranium is the health hazard the surrounding text implies.

There is room to debate the merits of military use of depleted uranium, but a link with blatantly erroneous information (and a helpful explanation of UFO technology) is hardly my choice for a starting point conducive to intelligent discussion. Given that discussions involving uranium attract enough emotion and misinformation already... there's no need for more fuel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
it does make me wonder WHY, this is so necessary

Depleted uranium is used because its density makes it both an excellent armor and penetrator. I don't think there's much of an argument against its use in armor. Certainly not from the tankers who are most at risk from any negative health effect.

Munitions use is more debatable. There's a pretty good case to be made that, when facing enemy armor, the limited risks of depleted uranium are outweighed by its benefits – if killing an opponent rather than being killed can really be called a benefit. When not engaging armor, or similarly hardened targets, there isn't much benefit, and I don't think it should be used.

With that said, DU is not as bad as many people seem to think. Despite studies of uranium miners and Gulf War veterans there is no evidence that depleted or natural uranium has ever caused a case of cancer. (source) That's not quite the same as saying that it's never happened, but the risk is so miniscule that there is no way to get statistically significant evidence. In short, there are others things you need to worry about much more. It's also worth noting that you'll find about four tons of natural uranium in the top foot of soil over every square mile on the planet. In terms of radiation, that would be around six and a half tons of depleted uranium.

Exposure to heavy metals and the low radiation levels of uranium are best limited, but the amount by which depleted uranium munitions increase that inevitable exposure, and the severity of the risk entailed by it, tend to be overstated.

[edited to fix a typo]



popeye1250 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 12:06:25 AM)

I don't know if we had any DU shells in the C.G.
We had A.P. (armor piercing) in the .50 cals but I don't know what they had in the 5"/38s.

I wonder if this one shoots D.U. shells?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQJSZs-euZU&feature=related

You can't beat Naval gunfire! And this is a smaller calibre.
Now this gun could fire D.U. shells.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrUXDAhP3Fg&NR=1



pahunkboy -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 5:15:45 AM)

The website I posted has alot of interesting information on it.  Tho it first appears alarmist,  he makes some good points.  I seen this guys work for years. While he does worry about every little thing, I beleive one can learn from the site.

At the end of any page he lists his references.

One page lists soldiers sick off of diet soda...



Owner59 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 7:43:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

Yawn................Combat may be hazardous to your health, any questions?







On the subject of training videos, this looks like something out of the 1960's or 1970's era.   Do you care to get something that it at least 2 decades within our current training videos????


Of course not.

And certainly DU isn`t the most dangerous item in the theater.

But if there`s better alternatives for armor,like  Chabum armor or something as good,we should use it instead of UM products.

Used as a round,it should(if ever)be used in limited form.Like the first hot part of the fight,when there`s no quarter, during running battles or outside of towns/cities.

There`s plenty of alternatives as far as AP shells.UM makes a damm good armor piercing shell but others are just as good and don`t carry the legacy of toxic heavy metal poisoning or radioactive dust.

The deal is the stuff`s cheap as dirt.It UM,is a bi-product of the manufacture of nuclear fuel and other products.

If it wasn`t so poisonous,it would be the ultimate battlefield material.It`s hardness and weight can`t be beat.Matched with steal and other hi-tech materials makes it an even better armor.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If they could form shells out of slag(a glass like bi-product of steel making)they would.

There`s mountains of slag outside of steel plants.What a qoup,to take a waste product and turn around and sell it.

No dumping costs and you make money to boot.

That`s what`s happened with DU.

Some genius(or idiot,take your pick) sold the idea of using UM to make armor and shells,turning a costly liability(dealing with nuclear waste)into a pay day.Win-win.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
General reply

IMO,UM shouldn`t be used just because it`s cheap and a great way to get rid of our nuclear waste.

I`ve been hearing stories from the beginning of the war(on NPR,BBC Radio,etc),that UM shells are in constant use and are causing problems.

I don`t think PAhunks post had anything to do with conspiracies and neither do my comments.

The widespread use of DU is the concern.

If you couldn`t care less about the toxic waste we`re spreading around or about the people we`re supposedly try to help,then say so.

If this isn`t an issue or problem,then fine.But we should at least consider it.

Just don`t be incurious or willfully ignorant .Don`t fain benevolence(like neo-conservatives do) and claim to be helping,when we might just be hurting.



popeye1250 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 10:44:01 AM)

Owner, I saw a program on t.v. about "shaped charges", they use copper penetrators in the middle of the round that burns through armor I believe.
See?
In love or war it's all about "penetration!"



Archer -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 11:00:22 AM)

Point #1 There is nothing as effective as a DU round for taking out heavy armour.
Read that again and make sure you're getting it clear if you need to.
There are less effective but effective enough in many cases, but there are no rounds that perform as well as a DU penetrator sabot round.
DU works on Kenetic energy, Heavy weights moving at high speeds, HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank) Rounds penetrate LESS inches of armor plate. and Non DU Sabot rounds also penetrate LESS inches of armor plate.
Now US Armor crewmen are thrained very specificly to use Sabot for Tanks and heavy armored vehicles, they are trained to use HEAT rounds on Thinner skinned armored and non armored vehicles. The prefered weapon on a tank for shooting a truck or non armored  vehicle is the .50 cal or the 7.26.  The prefered round for busting a wall down is the HEP round, with the secondary less effective and pefered but suitable being the HEAT round.

Are they using DU rounds in te Tanks today? Unlikely and reports of their use would be suspect mostly because the targets encountered are generally not the type where the DU rounds would be the most effective round they have at their disposal.
And charges that soldiers in the field are doing something that runs counter to the effectiveness that can save their lives just really are suspect to my mind. (They're not dumb, they use the available round that is most effective for the job at hand) Since there are not a whole lotta T72's playing hide and seek, the choice of a 120 MM DU round being used for some other purpose just doesn't make any sense.

Shift over to the Bradley and the chances are maybe a little higher, but not much considering the same basic fact DU rounds are only any good when used to penetrate armor. They make little holes in bunker walls (compared to the bigger more deadly holes made with the HE rounds, unless the walls are 12" of armor plate)

I have no illussions that DU rounds were used, back when there were tanks and other armored vehicles to take out. But their continued use today just doesn't ring true based on the fact that the other rounds available are more effective and efficient for the jobs they have at hand now. Sldiers are just not going to take the chance that the DU round will not be effective against targets they know they were not designed to be used on.









Gemini1766 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 11:02:15 AM)

I see a claim that it is a military training film. Sadly, the quality of it is so crappy, that I rather doubt it.

As to the dangers of DU ammunitions and such, I say "What a crock of shit."
I have friends, female, who are in the Army and fly Attack helicopters (AH-46 Apache) that are loaded with DU rounds. They are around it constantly and have had absolutely no ill effects to them or their children. Children carried part time while still flying those aerial gunships.

Additionally, I spent time in the military myself, and unless you're eating, sleeping and basically living in a good sized pile of the stuff it's not going to do shit to you.
The radio activity of it is less than you typically get from an x-ray at your dentist. The metal is heavy enough that it's dust is not able to spread large distances either.

The reason it is such a useful weapon is it's mass per square inch. It's heavy, it will rip through most anything like a hot knife through warm butter.

I can name other much more harmful things the military has made use of, starting with various chemical agents including Agent Orange.

As for the "gulf war syndrome" there is no conclusive proof that DU has anything to do with it, but a lot of evidence that points to the hundreds of burning oil fields and the chemicals at the rigs that burned with the oil. That was a massive toxic waste zone and all of it airborne clogging lungs and leaching into bodies as people breathed.



JohnWarren -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 11:10:15 AM)

Best analysis I've seen around here in a while, Archer!!!



Archer -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 11:33:12 AM)

Thanks John, I just put myself in the Crew's possition, not hard to do since I spent some time in their possition back in the 80's.

Owner, just as a matter of clarification of information, when a DU round strikes armor plate it does certainly create DU fumes (fumes- gasified metals, gasoline does not make fumes, nod to the instructor that taught me that little bit of trivia) that condense into DU dusts. However when a DU round strikes a concrete block the block mearly busts apart, there is no explossion ( rapid expansion of gases cretaed by burning) when a DU round strikes anything softer or more brittle than an armor plate. Just not enough friction to cause the DU to melt and gasify. Now that is not to say it doesn' chip off and cause a spark but generally the amount chipped off and the size of the chip would discount the idea that their use against anything other than armor creates additional worries from the dust. (this assumes that we take as fact that they are being used against hings other than armored vehicles which I am doubtfull of).

Rock fractures, dirt moves aside, engine blocks are generally too thin, other steel body parts very much too thin to generate the pyrotechnic display and effect you see when they hit armor.

All of th systems that have DU rounds available have other rounds available as well. My contention remains that when the crewman of the weapon selects the round to be used, either by the flip of a switch (bradley appachee, A-10) or by telling the loader what round to put in the gun (M1A1), they make the call based on which round will do the best job.
Unless the target is armored the best round for the job is not DU.



JohnWarren -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 12:57:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Thanks John, I just put myself in the Crew's possition, not hard to do since I spent some time in their possition back in the 80's.


[Shudder] As Bill Maldin's Joe put it "A moving foxhole does attract the eye." 

I'll content myself to watching them... from a distance.



Owner59 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 1:35:49 PM)

 I can`t say I disagree w/ Archer.That`s why I don`t want DU rounds taken out of the armory.Just limit the use and substitute them otherwise.

It`s not like we`re going up against tank squadrons and heavy armor in the field.You don`t need DU rounds for buildings,cars and mud huts.

Popeye,the copper shaped charge has been around since WWII,and can be defeated w/ the right armor.They are still in use today for military and industrial applications.

The best analogy I can come up w/ is asbestos.

Asbestos can be used safely if done properly.Until and unless the asbestos particles are airborne,it`s as safe as applesauce.

Pretty much the same deal with DU.In solid form,it`s harmless.But gassified or powderized and blown into the air,it`s a mother fucker.

Encapsulated and or mixed in with resigns,asbestos is safe.But if you blew it up or otherwise powderized it and breathed that dust,you could have trouble.Even a speck of asbestos lodged in your lung is enough to harm someone.

Same with DU dust.If you eat,breath or get it in an open wound,you could get heavy metal poisoning.

Note: I completely disassosiate myself with the "realone" and anything he has to offer,say or post.



Termyn8or -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 1:45:35 PM)

Still has a long half life.

Still defined as a war crime.

Still wrong.

T



Archer -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 1:52:45 PM)

War Crime???? please cite where that comes into play. Because the only war crime I can see at play would be the use of a large calibre weapon against personel as opposed to being used against equipment. (and that would apply regardless of the material the projectile is made from, the Army told me specificly that a 50 cal machinegun or anything larger was to be used against equipment not personel)

DU round is used when used according to any semblance of common sense because it is very dense. The same reason lead also a poison and likely even more deadly than DU under the same situation (gasified and then made dust).




Owner59 -> RE: depleted Uranium (4/7/2008 2:12:00 PM)

Calling it a war crime is extreme.Nuff on that....


And true,lead gasified would be deadly.Same with many household goods.

The point should be made that DU has a potential danger,not inherent danger.

It can and should be used by our military against enemy armor,without a doubt.

But not widespread,as I`ve heard.I`m afraid that this will be one of those stories we hear about long after the conflict is over.I hope not.


My only concern,at all,is their widespread and unnecessary use because DU is cheaper ,more abundant or they just happen to have a zillion of them around b/c of a supply glitch.



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