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RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 4/8/2008 12:55:34 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
to this slave, submission means submitting, and for her, it is an all or nothing propostition.
 
it isn't about earning this slave's submission by engaging in playing hard to get or designing hoops for another to jump through to prove their worthiness, sincerity or dominance.
 
when she was offered the chance to be HIS slave, in a relationship based on His authority and this slave's obedience, this slave agreed, and her desire was/is to please Him, full-stop.
 
this slave wasn't interested in going to jail or dying when we met, and after ascertaining that He didn't either, she didn't define protocol for Him to follow---it was/is the other way around.
 
Our relationship is based on His pleasure, and since He is such a pleasure to serve, the benefit is mutual.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 4/8/2008 12:56:26 PM >

(in reply to KindLadyGrey)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 4/8/2008 2:04:18 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

As a Dominant, I have this dilemma. I have a great respect for the personal autonomy of others. It is in fact, one of the guiding principles of my life: people have the right to make their own decisions and make their own mistakes. It is not my place to tell another person how to live their life.

Until it is. Because that person wants me to.

So here are my questions for the submissives here, and they are rather nuanced so I hope they make some kind of sense.

Being Dominant in predefined time periods, like a scene or a single date, is no problem. But figuring out how and when it is appropriate to take that to the next level and start taking control of a submissive's daily life is another thing entirely.

The questions:

What is the best way to approach a submissive about this issue? When is a good time? Do you prefer a Dominant to take a lot of control right away or gradually ease her/his way into your life? What's the most politic way to tell a sub to stop pansy-footing around and kneel at your feet already? How do you like a Dominant to communicate that she/he likes you?

The default answer to all of these questions is the old "communication and negotiation" mantra, and while this is certainly true, I find the clinical nature of that lacking in romance, and in practice things like this often happen more organically.

The Lady you have been seeing calls you AT WORK one day and tells you to go to the bathroom and remove your shorts. The man who was not previously your master presses you against the wall at a party and says "You are mine." and you squeak "Yes sir!" The Mistress you've been flirting with for weeks suddenly slaps you across the face and says "Enough of this crap. You're coming home with me."

Or perhaps things happen less dramatically, in a more subtle fashion. He says "pet, don't smoke that cigarette, let's go get some ice cream." She starts buying you nice clothes, but does not explicitly insist that you wear them. He pulls you into his arms for a cuddle in a vanilla setting. She strokes your hair and tells you that she is going to kiss you now.

So, which is your preference? As a sub, how would you prefer these transitions to be made? What expectations do you have of the Dominant? How much of your personal autonomy are you comfortable with being taken from you?


My preference would be for the former although honestly I can't remember how it happened for us (it was a while ago).  I think it was subtle punctuated with "slaps upside the head" because I tend to not always notice the subtle and my preference is to just be bulldozed over.

C~

Edited to add: I do, however agree with LA that the bulk of what makes up the relationship is the boring stuff (even service and submission can be kind of boring) - I read your question (maybe incorrectly) as being about when you make those punctuations to get the persons attention, which way does the person prefer it?  Assuming of course that the appropriate ground work and foundation for a relationship has been set.  I definitely wouldn't consider it appropriate for someone who I'd been dating for a few months to do either of those things which I prefer.


< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 4/8/2008 2:08:05 PM >


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to KindLadyGrey)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 4/8/2008 7:05:04 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
Since I’m open to various types of relationships, I prefer the cards laid on the table early on.  Conversations about what each of us want, what each of us are willing to give to the relationship are very important.  If it seems that it is worth sticking around for, then I like to know what he would require so that I can decide if I am capable of providing it. I don’t agree to submit until I am very sure who and what I am submitting/agreeing to.  I don’t expect a map etched in stone, but it is helpful to me if the dominant has a good idea of where we are headed and how we are going to get there.
I think sometimes we view it as a ‘’big bang” when it would work better if thought of as an evolution. 

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to KindLadyGrey)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 4/8/2008 7:43:27 PM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline
i agree with catize's seeing this as an evolution.  or perhaps a slow dance, seeing where each other's strengths and weaknesses are.

Daddy courted me slowly, talking to me about clearly stated "what-if's" and scenarios of what he would expect were i his to command.  he encouraged me to read different websites, to read these forums, to think of questions, and to ask as many as i wished while we were in the talking stages.  most importantly to me....

he has not changed.  the ONLY things i have ever gotten in trouble over have been putting myself down, (do you think i make poor decisions?  or would chase after trash? no?  then stop telling me i do by demeaning the slave i want to keep!) or by injuring myself (when it became obvious to me that i was doing it deliberately, and after i had confessed to him).

he has helped me build respect in myself, which makes me respect him even more...it would have been easy to break me down more, instead he has built me up into the slave he wishes me to be...he has given me his trust...and it has inspired me even more to give him my submission.

my submission isnt something he can just take.  his dominantion isnt something he can just give.  those two things only work when both of us work together....him to be Master, me to be slave.

kitten, smiling.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 4/10/2008 1:16:04 PM   
slavemaia


Posts: 395
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

As a Dominant, I have this dilemma. I have a great respect for the personal autonomy of others. It is in fact, one of the guiding principles of my life: people have the right to make their own decisions and make their own mistakes. It is not my place to tell another person how to live their life.

Until it is. Because that person wants me to.

So here are my questions for the submissives here, and they are rather nuanced so I hope they make some kind of sense.

Being Dominant in predefined time periods, like a scene or a single date, is no problem. But figuring out how and when it is appropriate to take that to the next level and start taking control of a submissive's daily life is another thing entirely.

The questions:

What is the best way to approach a submissive about this issue? When is a good time? Do you prefer a Dominant to take a lot of control right away or gradually ease her/his way into your life? What's the most politic way to tell a sub to stop pansy-footing around and kneel at your feet already? How do you like a Dominant to communicate that she/he likes you?

The default answer to all of these questions is the old "communication and negotiation" mantra, and while this is certainly true, I find the clinical nature of that lacking in romance, and in practice things like this often happen more organically.

The Lady you have been seeing calls you AT WORK one day and tells you to go to the bathroom and remove your shorts. The man who was not previously your master presses you against the wall at a party and says "You are mine." and you squeak "Yes sir!" The Mistress you've been flirting with for weeks suddenly slaps you across the face and says "Enough of this crap. You're coming home with me."

Or perhaps things happen less dramatically, in a more subtle fashion. He says "pet, don't smoke that cigarette, let's go get some ice cream." She starts buying you nice clothes, but does not explicitly insist that you wear them. He pulls you into his arms for a cuddle in a vanilla setting. She strokes your hair and tells you that she is going to kiss you now.

So, which is your preference? As a sub, how would you prefer these transitions to be made? What expectations do you have of the Dominant? How much of your personal autonomy are you comfortable with being taken from you?


i for one have never, nor would i just blatantly relinquish control of myself or my life to someone who simply claimed to be a dominant or who demanded things immediately. The Dominants i know who have had any r/l experience at all don't even expect that, except for perhaps in an agreed upon period of time such as a scene. In terms of a way of life, prior to accepting His collar i got to know Him well. For me it was different since we were both pretty new to all of this and so He didn't come on with all this bravado. If anything i've had to rid myself of the silly ideas that a Dominant is some theatrical tyrant  whose only focus is torturing His slave - lol.
 
We began to get to know each other like any 2 people would and we talked about everything. We "dated" and spent alot of time on the phone and we weaved in and out of D/s for a long time. i've tended to see an interest in D/s the same way i see an interest in anything. If 2 people are passionate about music, one of them doesn't have to play at who they are in order to share that interest. i feel the same with M/s. i am who i am - contained within me may likely be just as many dominant characteristics as my Master has. The difference for me is that i don't find the sense of fulfillment in living in those characteristics. For reasons i can't honestly explain, even to myself, i find surrendering to be the ultimate bliss and not just erotic surrender.
 
No - i did not submit right away and we had several heated arguments over it. No - i didn't roll over and say oh thank You for being so kind as to take control of me. It's taken a lot of time, patience, work, joy, tears, frustration, satisfaction - all of it. It's a process and it's on going for us both. The most important ingredient we had to offer each other is willingness to learn and to persist. Having lived for over 50 years on my own, i had no delusions that someone else knew me better than i or that someone else had my best interests at heart instantly. Now our scening was always one thing. i had no trouble trusting Him there, but the fact was play has always been a very mutually enjoyable thing and i have never experienced it as requiring any genuine degree of trust. Turning over my bank account - well that took alot of work on my part. But i am the individual i am and realize everyone does it how they do it.
 
Since it's been my experience and it's led to a successful relationship, one that we are both very happy in, i tend to think that the way i did it was a good way to do it. Take your time, battle it out if you have to - i've never understood the subs who find it all so easy to submit - but that's what makes the world go around. i've envied them at times, but have never really understood how they do it. ha ha. In terms of personal autonomy - it has happened little by little. Sometimes i've had to take giant leaps, other times it's been small steps. It was a testing period for both and i think a very necessary one before any serious vows or commitment is made. i met alot of players and actually thought there was something wrong with me because i just wasn't satisfied with that. So i guess in the long run, it depends on what you really want and how much you want it.

_____________________________


She reaches up, not for the apple, but for what causes it to be there.
slave to love - - Chairman's maia


(in reply to KindLadyGrey)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 4/10/2008 1:43:06 PM   
femdomslaveN


Posts: 4
Joined: 8/5/2005
Status: offline
I like the first steps to everyday life being ordered in private. For instance, tell me to wear my chastity device to work that day, but do it while at home. Afterwards, talk about it, get to know how it made me feel and act upon that.Take steps you think I can take, but don't negotiate. You'll get to know me and have me more submissive at every step.

That way, I'll be much more submissive in the end and will be happy to do things I wouldn't do straight from the start. Maybe it's because I am not that experienced, but it's the way that would work best with me.

(in reply to slavemaia)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 4/10/2008 3:54:34 PM   
MRandme


Posts: 661
Joined: 9/24/2007
Status: offline
Thought provoking question...

When i first met my Master, i had no idea what i was or what i wanted. He tells me that He knew i am a slave at heart... but He never let on to me at the time. i thought being a slave would be horrible and that i could never give myself over that way -- i value my independence and self-respect too much! Ha!

As time went on, He deepened my submission in small ways. i became comfortable with the small amount of control He took, and He would take some more then. And i thrived on it! i began to long for Him to take more control, keep the leash taut.  Long story short, i became His slave and am very content in my role at His feet.

Had He insisted on that much control to start, i probably would have run. Had He insisted i was to be His slave immediately, again i would have run. But by gradually adding things that He would take control of, i was eased into it enough that i found i enjoyed it and asked Him to take control of a few more.  (personally, i think He was going to do it anyway, but He pretended He was granting my request, LOL)

i still have my pride and self-respect. i also have most of my independence, mostly because my Master trusts my judgement and allows me to have it.  This is not to say that He will not tell me that something must be done or that i should focus on some aspect of my life and finances -- He has done so and i have listened and obeyed.  Our relationship grows, as does my submission.

Slow, steady, and reasonable. That's the way to go. Demanding access to finances or that the subby quit employment to move in are not the first steps in a relationship. There have to be many small steps first.

Respectfully,
g

Edited to change some wording.



< Message edited by MRandme -- 4/10/2008 4:04:03 PM >


_____________________________

And thus i conclude with a wish you go well,
Sweet be your dreams, may your happiness swell,
I'll leave you here, for my journey begins
i've gone to be with Him again...

(in reply to femdomslaveN)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 4/10/2008 5:46:17 PM   
xbutterflyx


Posts: 51
Joined: 7/18/2006
Status: offline
For me it takes time. Things have progressed in the last six months. It feels like a natural progression in our relationship..on my end..smiles. It is slow going, slow learning and that is wonderful to me.

smile bunches,

xbx

(in reply to Wheldrake)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 4/10/2008 10:20:28 PM   
Sirsinini


Posts: 172
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline
I have not read the responses...cause being my own person, I can answer for myself without any input.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

As a Dominant, I have this dilemma.
I am still not sure what your dilemna is. after reading your post.
It seems as if you are referring to situations, those "predetermined periods,"and not relationships.
I have a great respect for the personal autonomy of others. It is in fact, one of the guiding principles of my life: people have the right to make their own decisions and make their own mistakes. It is not my place to tell another person how to live their life.
But it is human nature to judge how another lives their life and try to give a few pointers.

Until it is. Because that person wants me to.

So here are my questions for the submissives here, and they are rather nuanced so I hope they make some kind of sense.

Being Dominant in predefined time periods, like a scene or a single date, is no problem. But figuring out how and when it is appropriate to take that to the next level and start taking control of a submissive's daily life is another thing entirely.
Right from the start. I will say as a submissive, I give NO ONE any right to tell me how to live my life if they are NOT my dominant for the long haul ~~ not just some predetermined time period. 


The questions:

What is the best way to approach a submissive about this issue?
From the beginning...when you begin to talk expectations of what you want or what sort of  relationship you want.  
When is a good time? Do you prefer a Dominant to take a lot of control right away or gradually ease her/his way into your life?
This, for me, depends upon the man whom I enter a long haul relationship with.  If you take the time to get to know each other, I think this will answer itself.  Because I believe it depends on personality and how much each give to the relationship or want from the relationship.
What's the most politic way to tell a sub to stop pansy-footing around and kneel at your feet already?
My Sir, because I know his expectations, after a year, doesnt need to pansy foot around if I am being delinguent. 
How do you like a Dominant to communicate that she/he likes you?
I dont like to "L" word.  But dont ya think you can tell by the way "care" is given and received?

The default answer to all of these questions is the old "communication and negotiation" mantra, and while this is certainly true, I find the clinical nature of that lacking in romance, and in practice things like this often happen more organically.
We dont believe in the "negotiation" stuff.  If I am not open and honest about everything...he doesnt want me.  And vice versa.

The Lady you have been seeing calls you AT WORK one day and tells you to go to the bathroom and remove your shorts.
He would not.  My position at work is too important.
The man who was not previously your master presses you against the wall at a party and says "You are mine." and you squeak "Yes sir!"  This speaks volumes about boundaries, doesnt it?  In other words...NONE...sure I'll hve a fling with ya...drag me away!   Sheesh...................
The Mistress you've been flirting with for weeks suddenly slaps you across the face and says "Enough of this crap. You're coming home with me."
Ya right... this is definately not about relationship...but about your "predetermined time period."..."You be bottom I be top." Slapping my face is VERY hard limit.

Or perhaps things happen less dramatically, in a more subtle fashion. He says "pet, don't smoke that cigarette, let's go get some ice cream." She starts buying you nice clothes, but does not explicitly insist that you wear them. He pulls you into his arms for a cuddle in a vanilla setting. I think too many "lifestylers" are afraid of this !! She strokes your hair and tells you that she is going to kiss you now.

So, which is your preference? As a sub, how would you prefer these transitions to be made? Transitons occur because 2 people are grwoing together.  Why must there be a defining point?   What expectations do you have of the Dominant? To know himself and me. How much of your personal autonomy are you comfortable with being taken from you?  I believe that as 2 people grow together one knows when to take and one knows when to give. 


_____________________________


The man who always seeks to be the best for you is
the only man truly worthy of being called Sir.


~~ Sir's devoted property
~~ whose profile is hidden on purpose



(in reply to KindLadyGrey)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 12/3/2008 3:29:47 AM   
Sigrid


Posts: 1
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: femdomslaveN

I like the first steps to everyday life being ordered in private. For instance, tell me to wear my chastity device to work that day, but do it while at home.

Hang on.. you actually *have* a chastity device??

NOW he tells me!


(in reply to femdomslaveN)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 12/3/2008 6:02:38 AM   
greeneyedreamer


Posts: 442
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline
I am not the most experienced submissive, but I have had some experience and in my opinion, the best dom/mes were the ones who allowed me to have an opinion but didn't hesitate to tell me how things were going to be done. They lead, I followed. They were kind, considerate, funny, and lived real life, but always lead. And I loved following.

Dreamer

_____________________________

Dreamer, owned and ecstatically happy

I am still learning... Michelangelo, age 87

Maybe some women weren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they are suppose to run wild until they find someone just as wild to run with. Sex and the City

(in reply to Wheldrake)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 12/3/2008 6:15:01 AM   
SteveAndJaz


Posts: 151
Joined: 11/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet

My personal preference is to get to know me as a person and see what makes me tick before going straight into domme-mode. 


Bingo!

Its looking for clues/finding triggers and then perhaps storing them for a later date.

(in reply to rubberpet)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Respect, Personal Autonomy, and Submission - 12/3/2008 6:17:04 AM   
SteveAndJaz


Posts: 151
Joined: 11/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

 
Our relationship is based on His pleasure, and since He is such a pleasure to serve, the benefit is mutual.


wow I love this ... thanks

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 33
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