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constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 6:51:51 PM   
azropedntied


Posts: 1829
Joined: 7/25/2005
From: Phx AZ
Status: offline 		I am posting this as i do not know the answer , and there are some smart cookies here .
If a person or person's come to the USA  in a non legal manner do they get the same  constitutional rights as a US citizen ?A measure passed  here in az for example says if an illegal person commits a violent,or felony  crime they are to be held and not given bail  ,for fear of not only a flight risk but other crimes maybe committed as past history showed, hence the passage of prop100 here in az .I know for yet another example if i were in any other country i would have to abide by that country's laws rules and regulations ,but i was curious if any who step on US soil no matter how they get here do they get free rights upon entry ?Thanks ..
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RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 7:02:00 PM   
Wolfen1594


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Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline 		Simply put the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and federal law are for citizens of the U.S. The U.S. does abide by international law and for that matter the Geneva Convention. Persons in any country are subject to that country’s laws. However, they are not necessarily afforded the rights of that country's citizens. They do get protection from international law, so far as the given country follows these laws and so far as international courts can carry out their rulings.
 
The question you ask is of course complicated and the stuff Supreme Court rulings are made of.

Kevin

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RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 7:08:56 PM   
azropedntied


Posts: 1829
Joined: 7/25/2005
From: Phx AZ
Status: offline 		Thanks Wolfen for the input .I think my confusion comes when people that  are not here legaly, yet demand the rights US citizens have .Maybe i am also confused about the right to protest , and assemble too .Or maybe i just need to take a brake from the news on the television. 

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RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 7:30:05 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		azropedntied:
If a foreign national is in this country illegally they are subject to our law.  Why then would they not be also entitled to the rights specified in the constitution?
The Constitution uses the words citizen and people.  It is not rational to assume that the framers chose those words indiscriminately or meant that they should be used interchangeably.
A reading of the constitution and it's amendments should clear up any confusion you might have concerning this matter.
thompson
 

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RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 7:33:43 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		Yikes....

I am sure we are gonna get loads of interesting answers on this one.

I think.. being the progressive person I am... that every one who is here.. regardless should be treated by the same laws and rules of our consitiution. Otherwise it means nothing. If we do not treat the least of us, the poor, the down trodden, even the "illegals" by our standards then they in fact mean nothing.. and we ourselves do not deserve them.

However I do have a conservative streak a mile long in me. ( my friend is convinced I am really a Rep. ) So it makes me concerned that when illegals who are hard as hell to track in the system ( I know having been part of a govt. job trying to track such things... ) they *are* a flight risk.

Hell our own citizens are a flight risk and *know* if they travel enough states away even on *very* violent crimes ( we are talking rape and murder) thier states and counties do not have the resources available to extridite them. Only Federal crimes get 100% extridited. Yep... litter in a federal park and they will hunt you down and bring you back for trial. Kill a family of 5... go across country.. and you are most likily off scott free. Damn Sad.

It is a huge debate now because Illegals and our citizens are using this against us to go and commit crimes across the US with impunity.

So having been in the Law enforcement community, and also Govt. Census knowing how transient illegals and criminals ( not that they are one in the same at all... but we are talking about this from a law enforcement view) I would say extridite all illegals who commit violent crimes. Period. Make thier home country foot half of the bill ~ it is only fair. While you are at it... all violent citizens should instantly be extridited as well.

It is high time our lovely tax paying citizens realize what happens when they say yes to tax cuts for thier counties. Thier Law enforcement budgets are cut.. and it makes things like this impossible.

Talk to your State Attny's Office... and your State's Department of Law Enforcement about getting this put in place. It is why we have continual repeat offenders who never see a day in jail.

Gwyn

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RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 7:37:19 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

Yikes....

I am sure we are gonna get loads of interesting answers on this one.




they have the right to legal protection under the constitution.

Obviously not the right to the pursuit of happiness unless they become a legal citizen.  Which is to say we have the right to eject them from our country unless all the proper channels are followed.







< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/8/2008 7:38:07 PM >

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RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 7:46:49 PM   
xxblushesxx


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Status: offline 		Real One, can't you learn to behave yourself so that we can read your posts when you post them? *lol*

What *did* you do, anyway?

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RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 7:48:19 PM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfen1594

Simply put the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and federal law are for citizens of the U.S. The U.S. does abide by international law and for that matter the Geneva Convention. Persons in any country are subject to that country’s laws. However, they are not necessarily afforded the rights of that country's citizens. They do get protection from international law, so far as the given country follows these laws and so far as international courts can carry out their rulings.
 
The question you ask is of course complicated and the stuff Supreme Court rulings are made of.

Kevin


Ok.. 7 years ago our contry abided by International law and the Geneva convention... however right now it apears that our govt has wiped it's ass on the Geneva convention and pissed on international law... That is why the rest of the world is so pissed at us. We are expecting our people abroad to be treated with the same courtesy of those laws.. however we tossed them out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention

Article 5): "Should any doubt arise whether persons, having committed a belligerent act..." is a prisoner of war "...such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal."
  • (Article 13): "Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated."
  • (Article 13): "...Prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity."
  • (Article 17): "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."
  • (Article 25): "Prisoners of war shall be quartered under conditions as favorable as those for the forces of the Detaining Power who are billeted in the same area."
  • (Article 27): "Clothing, underwear and footwear shall be supplied to prisoners of war"
  • (Article 33): "Members of the medical personnel and chaplains while retained by the Detaining Power with a view to assisting prisoners of war, shall not be considered as prisoners of war. They shall, however, receive as a minimum the benefits and protection of the present Convention, and shall also be granted all facilities necessary to provide for the medical care of, and religious ministration to prisoners of war."
    Article 42): "The use of weapons against prisoners of war, especially against those who are escaping or attempting to escape, shall constitute an extreme measure, which shall always be preceded by warnings appropriate to the circumstances."
  • (Article 60): "The Detaining Power shall grant all prisoners of war a monthly advance of pay..."
  • (Article 69): "Immediately upon prisoners of war falling into its power, the Detaining Power shall inform them and the Powers on which they depend, through the Protecting power, of the measures taken to carry out the provisions of the present Section. They shall likewise inform the parties concerned of any subsequent modifications of such measures."
  • (Article 72): "Prisoners of war shall be allowed to receive ... books, devotional articles, scientific equipment, examination papers, musical instruments, sports outfits and materials allowing prisoners of war to pursue their studies or their cultural activities."
  • (Article 88): "Officers, non-commissioned officers and men who are prisoners of war undergoing a disciplinary or judicial punishment, shall not be subjected to more severe treatment than that applied in respect of the same punishment to members of the armed forces of the Detaining Power of equivalent rank."
  • (Article 89): Provides for fines, discontinuance of privileges above those required by the Convention, fatigue duties up to two hours per day and confinement. "In no case shall disciplinary punishments be inhuman, brutal or dangerous to the health of prisoners of war."
     
    It is why when traveling abroad I reconmend slapping a Maple Leaf Flag on your back pack folks... and Humming "Oh Canada" a lot...

    and our fellow country men wonder why the world is pissed at us.. Hmm... read up a bit on what we are supposed to be doing.. and then listen to what they are even *admitting* they are doing... I shudder to think of what they are not even fessing up to.

    Gwyn

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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 7:52:10 PM   
    Gemini1766


    Posts: 991
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    Status: offline     		There is nothing in the Constitution that says that the laws within it are for the "Citizens" of teh United States of America. The laws of the Constitution to include the rights set forth for the individual in the Bill of Rights are there for all.

    Nowhere does it say....
    quote:

    Amendment IV The right of the CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    or
    quote:

    Amendment V No CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    Anyone who says that they are for "citizens" only are bigots trying to force their flawed interpretation on it.


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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 8:19:52 PM   
    popeye1250


    Posts: 18104
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    From: New Hampshire
    Status: offline     		Illegal aliens don't have a lot of "rights" in this country.
    They can't vote, *work*, own firearms, get driver's or business lisenses and a whole bunch of other things.
    Also, driver's lisenses are a priviledge not a "right."
    Most of the "rights" that they do have are in the criminal sections of our laws.

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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 8:23:33 PM   
    popeye1250


    Posts: 18104
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    From: New Hampshire
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Gemini1766

    There is nothing in the Constitution that says that the laws within it are for the "Citizens" of teh United States of America. The laws of the Constitution to include the rights set forth for the individual in the Bill of Rights are there for all.

    Nowhere does it say....
    quote:

    Amendment IV The right of the CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    or
    quote:

    Amendment V No CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    Anyone who says that they are for "citizens" only are bigots trying to force their flawed interpretation on it.



    Gemini, you're right on that but it also doesn't "include" illegal aliens.
    They're dealt with in the *criminal sections* of our laws seperately.

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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 8:28:19 PM   
    DomKen


    Posts: 19457
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    From: Chicago, IL
    Status: offline     		The constitution makes no distinction between people and citizens. If you're in this country you have all the rights laid out in the constitution. That's why the detainees are kept at Gitmo rather than being brought to a US prison.

    Arizona prop 100 is unconstitutional and should not be expected to survive court challenge. Although in practice it is unlikely to matter as an illegal is a pretty clear flight risk and thus is unlikely to be granted bail. the law is pretty clearly yet more immigrant bashing.

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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 8:32:14 PM   
    popeye1250


    Posts: 18104
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    From: New Hampshire
    Status: offline     		DomKen, if they're illegal aliens how can it be "immigrant bashing?"

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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 8:33:41 PM   
    Leatherist


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    Status: offline     		He'll be calling criminals "morally challenged" next.

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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 8:42:13 PM   
    TermsConditions


    Posts: 446
    Joined: 11/13/2007
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: azropedntied

    I am posting this as i do not know the answer , and there are some smart cookies here .
    If a person or person's come to the USA  in a non legal manner do they get the same  constitutional rights as a US citizen ?A measure passed  here in az for example says if an illegal person commits a violent,or felony  crime they are to be held and not given bail  ,for fear of not only a flight risk but other crimes maybe committed as past history showed, hence the passage of prop100 here in az .I know for yet another example if i were in any other country i would have to abide by that country's laws rules and regulations ,but i was curious if any who step on US soil no matter how they get here do they get free rights upon entry ?Thanks ..



    We SAY that we beleive that everyone is endowed by their creator with rights that cannot be take away or removed. The Constitution describes what the goverment of the United States may do and not do. It doesn't give us anything.

    And we SAY that everyone, everywhere should live free and enjoy these rights, and that this so important that we are willing to spend thousands of young lives, and trillions of dollars to allow the people of Iraq to enjoy their rights.

    So how can Gitmo and extreme-rendition be resolved with the same freedoms for which we are willing to sacrifice so much?

    So yes, the illegals that are in the United States are endowed with the same God given rights as everyone else. The question is how much are we willing to betray those that gave and continue to give the last measure of their devotion to secure those rights for us? 

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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 8:42:26 PM   
    DomKen


    Posts: 19457
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    From: Chicago, IL
    Status: offline     		You let me know when the minutemen start watching the canadian border, the longest unsecured border in the world. I'm still waiting for any calls to sweep Milwaukee Ave. in Chicago which is well known to have a huge percentage of illegals from Poland working there. The same thing applies to Irish neighborhoods in New York, Boston and Chicago.

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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 9:00:14 PM   
    GothishNomad


    Posts: 42
    Joined: 2/15/2008
    Status: offline     		The question truly is "should" our laws/constitutional rights be applied across the board - ab-so-frickin-lutely, are they...well that's another matter. Much like international laws Americans feel it is all right to enforce, or not,  these "rights" as they see fit. For us it's a matter of whether or not we agree with the international law courts but come here and it's "our way or the highway; we're the greatest country in the world dontcha ya' know." (Again why I tend to claim Canadian citizenry while abroad.)  Feeling righteous in defending our social mores only works when we stop being self-righteous.

    In all honesty I firmly believe that come here and yes abide by our rules, but I also believe that Americans need to stop focusing on the how people came here and more on why they came here.  

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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 9:02:54 PM   
    Smith117


    Posts: 1447
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DomKen

    You let me know when the minutemen start watching the canadian border, the longest unsecured border in the world. I'm still waiting for any calls to sweep Milwaukee Ave. in Chicago which is well known to have a huge percentage of illegals from Poland working there. The same thing applies to Irish neighborhoods in New York, Boston and Chicago.


    Why would the minutemen watch the northern border? They're a southern-based group formed when the ranchers in that area got tired of illegals crossing into their territory with no consequence.

    For 'minutemen north,' you'd have to consult with montana, washington, and all the rest of the northern border states.

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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 9:07:36 PM   
    cyberdude611


    Posts: 2596
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    Status: offline     		Well...sort of... But people dont view it correctly...

    The constitution is a law that governs how the government operates. The Bill of Rights puts limits on the government's power. So sure it protects everyone. However it does have limits. An illegal alien cannot vote. They cannot hold office. They cannot file suit. There is also nothing that protects them from deportation. If they are here illegally, any judge can order a deportation and the illegal will have no right at all to protest it or even appeal the decision.

    As for the Declaration of Independence... that's not a legal document. So it is not relevent to this discussion.

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    RE: constitutional rights , are they for all ? - 4/8/2008 9:11:55 PM   
    DomKen


    Posts: 19457
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    From: Chicago, IL
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Smith117

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DomKen

    You let me know when the minutemen start watching the canadian border, the longest unsecured border in the world. I'm still waiting for any calls to sweep Milwaukee Ave. in Chicago which is well known to have a huge percentage of illegals from Poland working there. The same thing applies to Irish neighborhoods in New York, Boston and Chicago.


    Why would the minutemen watch the northern border? They're a southern-based group formed when the ranchers in that area got tired of illegals crossing into their territory with no consequence.

    For 'minutemen north,' you'd have to consult with montana, washington, and all the rest of the northern border states.

    You're claiming minutemen are a ranchers group? You do know it was founded by a guy who lives in suburban LA right?

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