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More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 4:03:22 AM   
TreasureKY


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That word is bandied about here quite a bit… “expectations of a master”, “should subs have expectations”, “expectations and rules”, etc.  I have noticed, however, that there appears to be this propensity for the word to have a either a positive or negative connotation based on whichever side of the slash it is coming from… in other words, expectations from dominants are good and expectations from submissives are bad.

Nonsense, I say.  

What is an “expectation”, anyway?    It is the act or the state of expecting… to “expect”.  The definition of expect contains the following:  

1. to regard as likely to happen;  
2. to consider reasonable or due;  
3. to presume; suppose or surmise; guess;
4. to consider obligatory; require;  
5. to anticipate.  

For the most part, expect implies confidently believing that an event will occur.  

In terms of D/s, it is easy to see where expectations on the part of a dominant are granted.  After all, the very premise of D/s is that the dominant has authority and/or control over the submissive… obedience by the submissive is anticipated, required, considered due, and regarded as likely to happen.  

But what about expectations on the part of the submissive?   

If your initial response is that the submissive shouldn’t have any expectations of his or her dominant, then please reconsider.  

One of the most agreed upon concepts in WIITWD is that the foundation of D/s is trust.  What is trust but the reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, etc. (or lack thereof) of a person… a confident expectation of their behavior?  

Trust is generally built by a person behaving in a relatively consistent manner… whether bad or good.  If my assistant is typically late for work, then I begin to trust that she will be late… it becomes my expectation that she will not be reliable to arrive in a timely manner.  In the same manner, if my dominant consistently does what he says he will do, then I begin to trust that his word is good… and I expect that he will do as he says.  

I propose that in developing trust, one is actually developing expectations.  

And to be honest, the only people for whom I’ve no expectations are ones I have no vested interest in.  Being asked to have no expectations is akin to asking me to not care.  

If a dominant says that a submissive isn’t allowed to have any expectations, then I believe they are asking for the impossible… for a submissive to not care and to submit without trust.  When I hear a dominant say, “I won’t be boxed in by expectations”, on the surface what I hear is, “I refuse to be held to my word.  I refuse to be consistent in action.  Do not expect me to behave in any particular manner at any particular time.  I’m not dependable or trustworthy.”

Well, that's not good.

Of course, they might mean that they refuse to be held to an expectation based not on past experience, but desired future behavior.  Expectations aren’t always reasonable in every circumstance.  Just because my dominant has shown himself to be a thoughtful individual in general, doesn’t automatically mean that I can reasonably expect him to behave in a specific manner that I equate with being thoughtful.  

For example, if I believe sending flowers for my birthday is a loving gesture, just because Firm has proved himself to be loving to me, it would be unreasonable of me to expect him to send flowers.  That expectation would be based on my ideas, not his.  

This is where the other highly regarded concept of D/s comes in… communication. The question becomes not whether expectations exist at all, but whether the expectations are sufficiently communicated and backed up by good reason with regard to your partner… in other words, are they compatible expectations?

Edited because I hate Microsoft.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 4/9/2008 4:15:13 AM >
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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 4:23:24 AM   
DesFIP


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I consider it more in the light of number 4, to require. My expectations are the things I had to have to go into the relationship. And knowing that this is his preferred style, I can then confidently expect he will continue to do them. Basically, must haves as opposed to deal breakers, things I need.

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 4:35:27 AM   
Dnomyar


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It all boils down to communication. Don't assume that your partner is a mind reader.

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 4:38:40 AM   
hopelesslyInvo


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i never really gave it much thought, or at least other than in the sense that the dominants expectations are the groundwork of what i know they are after and that i can strive for, and i figure the sub should hopefully meet those if a relationship was to form.  expectations i have i don't think i could really lay out in the same way a dominant does, as most of what i feel i do is trying to live up to someone else's expectations.  in the case someone comes to me rather than me approaching them, i often feel a bit of regret admitting i'm not going to live up to what they're looking for, in other cases i'm so glad that i am not.  but really, after my curiousity takes hold in someone, the first thing i'm going to want to know is their expectations, i want to know what they're looking for if only because it's fascinating to me.

my expectations are much more figurative than concrete, and while sure, i consider them to also be important and don't expect that they'd be a hinderance upon them, i suppose you could still say i look at my own expectations as less of an issue.  but in me not being the most profound or experienced, it might be because i often am unsure what to expect.

< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 4/9/2008 4:56:20 AM >

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 4:57:15 AM   
RavenMuse


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Everyone has some expectations when entering into a relationship of any kind, no matter what side of the Dynamic they are on.

Whilst there are expectations that it would not be appropriate for someone to have if they hoped to build a relationship with Me... in that I simply won't jump through hoops, not directly and not through someone attempting to manipulate.... It is quite expected that some expectations are made... I certainly have expectations of them.

Honesty is a big one on both sides. Expecting the situation that is presented to be the case in reality is another (This one I see broken time after time, especialy from dims who 'offer' (bait their hook) with promises of a relationship yet after a quick shag and a play session they notch their bedpost and move on to the next with no attempt to build any relationship, it was never going to be what was presented)


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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 5:06:14 AM   
tahlly


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An interesting post; one that I am sure many would agree with on the surface; and while I can understand how you came to your conclusions; I am not sure that I wholeheartedly agree with them.

Before actually answering this, I sat down with my owner and showed him what you had wrote and then we had a pretty good discussion about it. Needless to say, we disagreed over our own conclusions J . He agrees with what you say to a certain degree; I disagree.

In my thinking, to have expectations about a person is to set yourself up for disappointment. Yes, my owner has authority in our relationship; but to expect him to ALWAYS have it, at all times, is unreasonable. He is not always available for me to stop and question. And in situations that arise suddenly; I can not stop and think ‘what would he do or how would he wish for me to handle this?”; I simply have to act. The reality and normalcy of life itself denies both of us the “expectation’ of what should be done in those situations ( when looked at as actions that are defined by our relationship ) So, I do not expect him to always have authority; reality keeps that from happening. ( and I would like to point out that the example I used [ acting on impulse ] is not the only instance where this would apply }

Does he expect me to trust him? No. Does he want me to trust him? Absolutely; so he goes out of his way to not harm that trust.

Do I expect him to act in a way that wins my trust? No. Do I want him to act in a way that will win and keep my trust? Absolutely. I know though that he is human, with human failings and that there have been, and will be times that he will do or say something that shakes that trust.

Do I expect him to treat me in a certain way? No. Do I want him to treat me in a certain way? Absolutely.

Does he expect me to treat him in a certain way? No. Does he want me to treat him in a certain way? Absolutely.

They are not expectations; in my thinking, expectations set one up for disillusion. I will however, say that they are wants that we both have; and we go out of our way to see that those wants are met and fulfilled.

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 5:19:59 AM   
hopelesslyInvo


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i think the thing is, hoping or wanting a person to treat you a certain way is pretty ideal when just covering random people or strangers, but people you are involved with or looking to get involved with, people you trust... the hopes and wants turn into expectations unless you just blindly jump into any relationship and simply "hope for the best, but expect the worst".

what you want from someone becomes what you are looking for, what you are looking for is what you hope to find, you expect to find what you were looking for.  the more unrealistic your expectations are, the less likely you are to find it.

saying "i want someone kind, loving, and respectful but don't expect you'll be any of these things", i'm feeling quite certain is not the best way to find someone of this nature.  expectations are the things you look for in the first place, things that possibly are not able to be compromised without compromising the relationship, i see no reason why someone shouldn't expect plenty out of a relationship, but set your expectations too high and i wouldn't bother expecting to find a relationship.

i see your point and all, but i think this is just semantics, if you don't expect someone will be one thing, that's basically just saying you expect they will be something else.  if you don't expect a person to be faithful...

< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 4/9/2008 5:42:43 AM >

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 5:23:07 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


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fast reply

i can personally say we (Daddy and i) had no expectations since it didn't begin as D/s.  and i can honestly say there aren't any currently between us due to the nature of our relationship. though this may work for most and/or all, it certainly does for us.


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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 5:56:30 AM   
tahlly


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HopelesslyInvo,
 
that may be your idea of relationships; and that may be how you approach them; however, I still, will, respectfully disagree with your words.
 

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 6:15:47 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

It all boils down to communication. Don't assume that your partner is a mind reader.


you seem so wise since you have the picture. ;)



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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 6:34:39 AM   
greenearth21


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I think everyone has expectations...as long as they are realistic and not setting yourself up for disapointment.  My first expectation in any relationship is honesty.  I expect someone to always be honest with me regardlessof whether its a good or bad thing.  If someone falls short of my expectations then why bother?  Just the same way, i would need to meet someone else' expectations of a "good sub".   Expecting someone to love you, expecting someone to do this and that for/to you is just setting oneself for dissapointment or even failure. 

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 6:37:44 AM   
Justme696


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agree we all have expectations...some more then others..already starts when you leave to work or school
you expect to arrive..but you are never sure ;)

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 6:42:57 AM   
littlebitxxx


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Great post, treasure!  Thank you.  I think that would go for all relationships, not just D/s ones.  Each does have their own expectations based on the first part of their getting together, the expectations that what they see will last.  That the other will be somewhat the same strong, trustworthy, reliable sort that they initially were attracted to.  It's the ones that put on a good front until you get to know them that seemingly change.  They really haven't, they've just let their true self out.  Then how do you trust anything they say or do?  Or is it all a big front all the time? 

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 7:06:47 AM   
TreasureKY


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tahlly...

I firmly believe that you do have expectations... whether you want to recognize them, or not.  From your own examples, it would appear that you expect reality to occasionally cause you to have to make a decision independently of him.  It would also appear that you expect for him to accept this.

And by the way, not always getting his permission or advice prior to acting on a situation is not taking authority away from him if he expects those occasions will arise and has the expectation that you will make those decisions to the best of your ability.

Also, being disappointed does not negate having the expectation to begin with.  People are rarely absolute in their behaviors and reactions, and we are all capable of stepping outside of our own boundaries depending upon the circumstances.  But that does not mean that the expectations that we have do not exist.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say we expect to be disappointed occasionally, though we might hope otherwise.

If your owner gives you instructions, I would imagine he expects you to carry out those directions.  While it might happen that you fail at times, if you never obeyed him with any regularity, I'd think he'd have a hard time trusting that you would obey and would probably come to the expectation that he could not depend upon you to obey.

If you can say that you never know or anticipate how your owner will act, what he will enjoy, or whether he will even be your owner still in the next moment, then perhaps you might not have any expectations of him.  But even then, I'd say that you had expectations that he will be unpredictable.

The mere fact you've said yourself that "there have been, and will be times that he will do or say something that shakes that trust" suggests that you do indeed have expectations of him of continuing to be trustworthy, but also the expectations that he will fail you on occasion.  You further solidify this opinion with your statement, "we go out of our way to see that those wants are met and fulfilled".  That's an expectation, right there.  In using the pronoun "we" here, you are speaking for him saying that he also will go out of his way.  In a collective sense, you are expecting that he will behave that way... either because his past behavior has created that expectation, or because he has told you that he will and you have the expectation that he was being truthful.

hopelesslyInvo has a very good point... if you don't expect someone will be one thing, that's basically just saying you expect they will be something else.  The only way I can see not having any expectations of someone at all is to simply not think about them... not take an interest in them, not be affected by them, not care in the least.

That's also a surefire way to avoid disappointment.  

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 4/9/2008 7:15:44 AM >

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 7:27:21 AM   
tahlly


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It is obviously a case of simple semantics. You choose to see them as expectations; I choose not to. That is ok though :); it was a thought provoking post.

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 7:55:48 AM   
Dnomyar


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Justme climb up to my cave and I will enlighten you. Bring some macadamia nuts with you. Op what good are expectations if you don't communicate them to whomever.

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 8:05:42 AM   
Mercnbeth


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this slave expects Him to wake up in the morning...but at the same time is fully aware of His mortality and expects Him not to one day.
 
there is more focus on the former than the latter, though.
 
there is also the expectation that we will be honest with each other, respectful of each other's place in our life and the things we have committed to each other...but those expectations run both ways.
 
to take it the step further that this slave feels is more the crux of the double standard...this slave makes no demands of Him, even if He falls short of her expectations...THAT does not run both ways.

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 8:11:26 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Justme climb up to my cave and I will enlighten you. Bring some macadamia nuts with you. Op what good are expectations if you don't communicate them to whomever.


I agree, Dnomyar.  That's why in my op I said...

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

... This is where the other highly regarded concept of D/s comes in… communication. The question becomes not whether expectations exist at all, but whether the expectations are sufficiently communicated and backed up by good reason with regard to your partner… in other words, are they compatible expectations?


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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 8:17:19 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

... I simply won't jump through hoops, not directly and not through someone attempting to manipulate....


RavenMuse, your point here is one that emphasizes a concept I briefly mentioned above...

Expectations for desired future behavior can be based on previous lifetime experiences or simply impressions and ideas we have adopted along the way.  When we meet someone new, there is no experience with that person to draw upon, so we rely on the expectations we have developed with others in the past.  What is important is deciding if your expectation is realistic and reasonable for the relationship and the current person with whom you are trying to develop that relationship. 

Expanding on my example above with the flowers... when Firm and I first met I had no idea what to expect when my birthday came around.   My expectations were all based on my own prior experiences and observations... what I thought should be an appropriate gesture from someone who had a relationship with me of the kind I was seeking.  In the fictitious example I gave, the expectation that my lover would give me flowers might be based on previous lovers having done so, seeing my father giving them to my mother, or even just the impression that that is what lovers do based off some silly television programming.

Note that I don't really have any expectation of flowers.  Based on past experience, I really have no positive expectations when it comes to my birthday.  The example just seemed one that was common enough to be easily identified with. 

At any rate, if Firm holds an idea that birthdays aren't important or worth bothering to even remember, I am bound to be disappointed.

Now, is that disappointment my fault or his? 

It depends.  If Firm and I discussed our opinions of birthdays and what we felt were appropriate observances, and after sharing our ideas we came to the understanding that my preferences would be adopted, then the fault would be Firm's. 

If, however, it was something talked about but I simply assumed that Firm would do as I wished without his agreement, then the fault would be my own.  After all, they were my expectations alone.

However, if it wasn't something that we ever talked about, then we are both to blame.  Yes, because it was my expectation to get flowers, then I have a responsibility to inform him of my expectation.  But because it is generally accepted (in our culture, at least) that birthdays are observed, if Firm holds a belief contrary to that, then he has a reasonable obligation to let me know.

There is an opportunity for compromise and agreement, but it requires COMMUNICATION.  (Good enough, Dnomyar?  )

If expectations diverge, then the only hope for a peaceful coexistence is to either adopt the other's viewpoint or agree ahead of time that expectations might not be met.  But if you don't talk about your expectations... if you do not communicate, then that opportunity is lost.

I suspect, RavenMuse, that the type of expectations you mention above fall more into this category... preconceived ideas and expectations that are not addressed and fully agreed upon.

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RE: More Expectations… - 4/9/2008 8:20:27 AM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

to take it the step further that this slave feels is more the crux of the double standard...this slave makes no demands of Him, even if He falls short of her expectations...THAT does not run both ways.


So you're saying that you have expectations that he will make demands upon you, but expect not to make demands upon him? 

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