RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (Full Version)

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CalifChick -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 4:05:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
I am told they just don't feel submissive toward me. Now I just got this recently but it isn't the first nor will it be the last time I get this.


So this last one, did you give her the opportunity to explain her feelings, or did you just decide it was a wall issue?

Cali



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 4:17:09 PM)

Barricades to me are just flashing neon signs of "insecure weak spot here" and the ones who are smart enough not to try to just smash it down, will seductively tunnel under them and be able to cause even more damage.

Building walls doesn't deal with the cause, just the symptom.  It's normal and I would agree that we all have walls- but people who just barricade out the wazoo and not work on what caused them to begin with are generally just cause in a cycle of frustration (for reference, see Prinsexx).



SteelofUtah -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 4:34:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
I am told they just don't feel submissive toward me. Now I just got this recently but it isn't the first nor will it be the last time I get this.


So this last one, did you give her the opportunity to explain her feelings, or did you just decide it was a wall issue?

Cali




No Cali, Honestly I didn't, but there was a reason. I was tired of dealing with all the myriad of issues brought up before this was said. I offered numerous solutions to all the other worried that had been made and Honestly thought that I was moving forward and then I am given the Dead Kill of "I just don't feel submissive toward you" Now sure maybe she wasn't suited for my house and maybe she was right but to go there without even taking the time to find out if she could be happy just made me shut down and be done with the whole process.

It would have been one thing if she had said she was scared but it never seemed like fear was am issue in reality I tried very hard not to be dominating with this girl, she needed someone who wanted her for her not for what she did for them at least that was how I saw it. So I behaved like I would any old friend I ever had and well I guess this behavior led her to believe I was a push over or not dominating at all which I thought was funny because I wondered why when we were only being friends for the time being would I try to dominate her?

You gotta understand Cali this was more than just a week of conversations I mean we had had some deep conversations, I had an issue once with andi and I called her because I felt that she would understand and instead she turned this situation against me saying that andi and I had Drama and that she couldn't get involved in that. What I thought was funny was andi and I are happy, sure we had an issue but I don't know ANY relationship that doesn't have them from time to time.

In the end what it came down to was feeling that no matter what she said I wasn't going to make a difference in how she felt so I figured why bother give her the chance to explain she made up her mind a long time ago and just decided to tell me about it recently. At least that is how I felt and with those feelings going on in my head can you really blame me for being upset? I mean I felt like I wasn't even given a chance I tried to give her space and a safe way to get comfortable and what do I get for my efforts the Idea that she just doesn't feel submissive toward me when that dynamic was never even introduced we were supposed to just be getting to know each other and flirting.

Don't get me wrong the girl was worth the effort I just feel like I was given the short end of a broken stick on this one.

Hope any of that made sense.

Steel



Bound2One -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 4:42:27 PM)

I'm going through something similar in my relationship with Master at this moment.  All I can think is that the thing that is allowing me to trust and break down some of my barriers is that there is a strong sense of love, commitment and respect between us.  We've touched on some emotional things with me that make me want to run the other way and just say 'forget about it - this is too hard'.  BUT we talk it through.  We try to get to the bottom of it to get past the blockage, to knock down the wall.  It's exhausting, plain and simple.  And I couldn't do this with just anyone.  He is understanding, intelligent and sensitive - thus, allowing me to stumble and figure things out and really face emotions head on rather than turning and running like I've done in the past. 

This is all a lot of work.  It takes two very committed people.  It also takes me being in the right frame of mind to deal with these emotions and blockages once and for all.  I don't know what exactly it is that puts me in the right headspace to deal with it now - it feels like the culmination of a lot of self examination (over a year's worth), growth and, honestly, just a desire to be truly happy.  Combine that with the right person, prepared and ready to take on this responsibility ... and you might be able to break the walls down. 

So in response to Steel - I don't think I can answer 'how long do you stick around to break down the barriers someone else created'.  It's kind of a perfect storm situation - everything has to be aligned for it to work, I think.  And the foundation of trust has to be present before you can even fully understand what it is the submissive is dealing with, before she will be able to be open enough with you to explain herself and then she has to be willing to do the work also. 

I think a lot of people (myself included for years) are much better at shoving down the ramifications that can come up within relationships when emotional barriers are present.  Denial is handy in this.  I'm very good at pretending everything is peachy keen.  But there's something about the D/s dynamic which didn't allow me to do this anymore, and until I found the right person to work with, it wasn't happening.  I think this is why I was so good at holding onto the barriers - in a way it's much easier.



CalifChick -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 4:44:58 PM)

Deleted by moi.

Cali



DesFIP -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 4:45:57 PM)

I just view this as a compatibility issue. People trust at different speeds. If you need someone who trusts faster than the person you're talking to, then you aren't now compatible with this person. If the person you're talking to is ready to invest heavily in you now and you're just barely dipping a toe in the water, then you aren't compatible.

I have every right to go at a speed I can handle and not at someone else's speed. As do they. Compatibility is all it is, not a reason to cast stones.



subtee -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 4:47:37 PM)

Ouch.

Pretty delighted that I posted...



RavenMuse -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 5:41:12 PM)

We all have baggage, each and every one of us. Past unpleasent experiences, areas where We find it a little more (Or a lot more) difficult because of that baggage. My girl does.... I know I do.... But I keep one eye on that baggage and when it raises its head I try and catch it, reminding Myself that the baggage was caused by other people, people in the past and this is a new girl, in the here aand now, a girl who hasn't given Me reason to doubt her, hasn't given Me reason for distrust...she deserves a clean slate and to be reacted to on her own merits.

Sure I get those twinges from My baggage but I force Myself past those. If I can't control Me then I have no right even trying to control her.

But I also know it isn't easy when she is facing those things. I know how hard it is for Me sometimes. So long as she is trying her best then I am there to help her face those demons, for her to draw strength, reasurance and guidence from... because like she has never given Me reason to doubt her.... I have never given her reason to doubt Me.... sometimes she just needs a gentle reminder of that fact.



subtee -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 6:20:26 PM)

I hope it's not a matter of me not doing my best, however, it's a tall barricade. Label me "insecure?" Okay. Easy for anyone who doesn't know me. I'll not hijack anymore except to say that this is how I am. I've read repeatedly how we're not all the same, what is okay for one is not okay for another. I don't manipulate, I just have a lifetime of keeping things close to the vest, so to speak.

It's troubling, yes, for relationships.However, how about the supposed women who can't shut their mouths? Isn't that a stereotype? And isn't that also considered insecure? Where comes the standard for secure, other than from the ones who can spot what it isn't?

Steel, you will find what you're looking for, I have no doubt. And I do wish that for you. Some of these women may just be other than expected, other than stereotypical, other than manipulative. You're an awesome person and will find the way to bring the best of her (wherever she is now) out.

done.



kiwisub12 -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 6:51:28 PM)

I had a vanilla marriage go bad, divorced and spent the next 10 years alone, raising two kids and staying away from anything that even looked like a man. (scarecrows, cardboard cutouts, indians outside the barbershop etc) . I was celibate. I was also depressed and in getting help for that i ended up in therapy with a man who allowed me to figure out that i wasn't worthless, undesirable, ugly, nonsexual, and all the other labels that i had been fed for years. Once i trusted him enough to give him all this garbage i found out that behind the barriers was a nice, normal person, with normal desires.

at the end of therapy, I found my Sir - someone who in my wildest dream i didnot think i would find.   Bringing down barriers is hard work and takes a while, but man, the benefits are well worth it.  

i also think if someone is not ready to drop barriers you would be hard put to bring them down yourself.  In fact, i think it would be damn near impossible.   Kind of like drinking problems - if you aren't ready to stop then no -one can help you.

I also think 6 months is an overly generous amount of time for someone to give a sub for them to decide weither or not to trust you.  If they can't decide in a month or so , there is something wrong with them.



Leatherist -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 6:58:59 PM)

I take chances, but I also don't seek matches with unsuitable personalities.

I've also learned that eating drano to punish an enemy is STUPID.



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 8:46:08 PM)

To the OP..I am not sure if this is on a similar plane as to what you ask..But I can recollect many moons ago I was in correspondence with a Dominant (lives in same area as I )..and in phone conversation as well..Now what bothered me was the fact that as much trust and info of myself as he expected me to supply to him ,was in direct proportion to the lack of info and trust he was willing to give me..the more he resisted giving a little trust to me, the more distrust toward him built up within me..reasons on his part?..family well known, worry of too much disclosure..past baggage?..I suspect so....so who goes first with the trust?..who lets go of a small bit of baggage first?..who holds out their hand ?...I understand the worries and fears on both sides of the slash...I understood this Dominants worry...but it seemed to me that he did not reciprocate the worry on a fem subs part for a modicum of personal info..sure having this may not insure that he is not the Psycho Dominant from the Dahmer School of Charm...but...it sure would of shown a willingness to not be such a mystery and thus a potential threat...Tempting



SteelofUtah -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/9/2008 9:53:27 PM)

Tempting,

I agree on this, and at least in my situatuion Trust from my side is never lacking. I trust completely asking little for it.

I Trust till given a reason not to and changing my Phone number doesn't bother me, nor does filing a restraining order. I have had to. I also believe in the fact that I am a Big Boy and therfore I ONLY get involved in what I am sure I can handle and if I can't handle it I tend to drop it before it knows it has even been picked up. leaving the person unaware I was ever interested in the first place.

Trust is a Two way street in my book. I just wonder who some people protect it so tightly they never really give it out again.

I have to think that would be lonely, spending the rest of your life never really willing to trust anyone.

Steel



Corvidae -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/10/2008 12:20:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

quote:

ORIGINAL: canupleaseme

I don't think you can put a time line on your question " how long should one be expected to jump thorugh the emotional mine field that can be the irrational fears of a once bitten twice shy submissive" If your right for each other whats the rush?  I am glad my boy spent a long time helping me work through and acknowledge my barriers I am feeling lot healthier emotionally now.  If someone just won't let you in at all I think its a subtle way of saying that they don't think it will work or its just a bad match.

I hope I understood your post [&:]



Now see there in lies the mystery. I think I am right for them and they are right for me and they don't know and aren't willing to give it any serious thought. How long should I dance around the elephant in the living room before walking away? And then after everything is said and done you end up looking like the bad guy because after 6 months you stopped trying so hard because you weren't getting anything in return and so you left to find somewhere you were wanted.

I am not talking about the "Brain Dead" boys who just can't take a hint I mean they aren't willing to commit to wanting you but the don't want you to walk away either. 6 months is a FINE timeline and something I am even willing to do. It doesn't have to be sexual or kink involved, I just want to know where I stand, is there a future or isn't there and if there isn't than just say so, but if ther IS a future then WHY not work TOWARD it?

Something has to give and I am willing to knock down wall after wall but when it is obvious I am No closer to the place "I"  want to be how long can you expect me to stick around before I say

"Fine I know where I am not welcome or wanted."

My Frustration comes in the fact that these people say they want someone who sees them as a person so you see them as a person and then they just find excuses why not to let you in.

I have been told I was perfect for someone and that it would just never work in the same breath. I am not willing to stick around to be emotionally played with so that someone else can keep thier irrational walls up.

Steel




Obviously if someone is playing games with you, than you shouldn't feel obligated to stick around and play their games. Nor should you feel obligated to stick around even if they aren't playing games. You will never look like the bad guy or gal in my book for walking away from a situation that isn't going anywhere for you.

However, I'd say that most barriers that people put up are not intentional, and are certainly not intended to be manipulative. Nor would I call the fears of a "once bitten twice shy submissive" irrational. If someone has had a negative experience with something, it seems reasonable that they would be more cautios about trying it again. It takes different people different ammounts of time to process things and to figure out what is right for them. Certainly talking things over with them might speed up the process of overcoming barriers, and could be very beneficial to both people, however they are under no obligation to ultimately let anyone cross that boundary. If you don't want to wait around to see if they are going to let down their barriers, then move on.

Also, if someone says they say they aren't sure (or if they say no), it probably isn't because they "aren't willing to give it any serious thought." I know from personal experience that one can spend years agonizing over something, only to come to the conclusion that you can't come to a conclusion. Believe me, it is frusterating as all hell not to be able to figure something out about one's own self. In an ideal world we would all be 100% certain about who and what we want, unfortunately things are rarely that straightforward.



Leatherist -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/10/2008 12:23:19 AM)

I hated cooked peas as a kid, and I still hate cooked peas.
 
The entire world could try to convince me that I had to like cooked peas,and it would still be a limit.

Edited because I am up WAY too late working on arm binders.



SteelofUtah -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/10/2008 12:47:33 AM)

quote:


Quoted by: Corvidae

However, I'd say that most barriers that people put up are not intentional, and are certainly not intended to be manipulative. Nor would I call the fears of a "once bitten twice shy submissive" irrational. If someone has had a negative experience with something, it seems reasonable that they would be more cautios about trying it again. It takes different people different ammounts of time to process things and to figure out what is right for them. Certainly talking things over with them might speed up the process of overcoming barriers, and could be very beneficial to both people, however they are under no obligation to ultimately let anyone cross that boundary. If you don't want to wait around to see if they are going to let down their barriers, then move on.



Okay I feel the need to clearify, not because you got me wrong but because I have stated something a little harshly and feel I should shead some light on the situation.

Wounds are Wounds. Pain Hurts. Time Takes Time. And The Bleeding starts once the knife is pulled from the heart.

I am NOT saying that I want someone to abandon thier coping mechanism just to accomidate my advances. I understand that at times I can be the light at the end of the tunnel to someone seeking someone Honest and Sincear and to someone else I could be the Freight Train they THINK is a light.

I get that people heal in different timelines. The Point of this is not to get people to get over things faster but rather to paint a different side if you will.

We hear stories every day of the Dom who had the girl come out with pennies in her pockets just to fuck her, slap her, take a few pictures, and send her home. We know that people whine (Like Myself) about women who are just so untrusting that they never give us a shot. The POINT is that there is another side to that story. I see the damage that has been done. I HONESTLY DO!! I know how Painful putting trust into someone to have them abuse it can be. I KNOW what it is like to be used for nothing more than a good time and sent home cause you aren't good enough to keep. I understand MANY of the submissive trust-wise battlefields. I was young and eager to please too. At one time anyway.

What I don't get is the LIVING with it. I am WORTH more than the value that others place on me and so is any sub who undersatands the true value or surrender. Surrender is a commodity that renders a HIGH value to most and is abused so easily by those that it is freely given to. But Why live life AFRAID to experiene it?

You will Fall
You will Bleed
You will Cry
You will Get Back up
You will Heal
You will be happy again

These are FACTS JACK! So why live life in fear that living it will cause pain, cause withg Pain comes Growth and with Growth comes change and with Change comes New Life!.

If you are so afraid to let down a wall or take down the barricade you will miss out on So very much.

A Close Friend once said

*Steel* the world is an amazing place and much of it is dangerous but if you never take chances how will you ever know just how versitile you can be?

He made me understand that I am only able to do the things I know how to do because I took a chance and learned something new. Yes I was once afraid to learn, I was afraid to try something new, I was so afraid that I didn't let anyone take me out of my little box and spent all my time pushing people away because they didn't understand me and never would. I was 13 then and going through that "Pity this poor bastard" phase.

Today I trust because I CAN, but just as I can give someone trust I can take it away from them. THIS IS MY POWER!!! I don't have to live in FEAR of them I can take away just as easily as I give. If you hurt me I can remove my trust in you but I see no reason NOT to trust you if you have never given me a reason NOT too.

I am tired it a quarter to 2 in the morning in Utah, and all I know is that I would be silly to let someone walk away who desperatly wants in just becauseof something someone else did to me.

There is someone who thinks this whole thread is about them and well part of it was but not anymore. It's about the sill practice of making someone else pay for anothers sins.

I don't care anymore about who wants to let me in and who doesn't I know I am worth it and if they can't see it then, well, screw um. Someone else will.

I wish CollarMe a Wonderful Thursday and Good night

Steel

**If this doesn't make any sense just blame the sleep depravation and forgive me**



Leatherist -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/10/2008 12:50:45 AM)

Dude,you eventually realize that the past is dead. There is nothing you can do to change it.

You can work on changing how it effects your future.

And that is where an individual learns to be strong.

Letting go of the pain, rather than insisting on submitting to it.



Owner4SexSlave -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/10/2008 1:02:47 AM)

SteelofUtah,

It's a bitch letting somebody into ones life, heart, soul or making the investment of yourself into another human being, only for the tables to get turned or things take a turn for the worse.

I often refer to these barricades as GateKeepers.  I have my Gatekeeper and other people have their own.

There comes a time when you step over line, extend trust, place faith in another human being.  But we all have our own quirks and faults.  

I have had my heart broken before, yet I have been that Bad guy heart breaker as well.   Who has not been burned or burned somebody else before in life?    Mind you at times, people don't set out to fail, betray or cause heart break.  

Entering into any relationship, one is faced with the element of risk.   Should this mean we should not try to invest ourselves into something or not?   I think anybody with a concious will contemplate how to avoid failure in the future.  Ask themselves what went wrong or what the hell did they get themselves into.    Nobody really like to feel hurt or to cause true hurt (save the true masochist).

For the last couple of weeks, I have not been making much in the way of postings to the message boards.   I myself had let somebody into my life, they made it past my gatekeeper.   I took a good hard look at everything that went wrong on both sides of the fence.    I was tearing into everything that went wrong or bad.   What I failed to look at was what went right or the good things.   So, here I am with a sort of balanced out Love/Hate view of somebody else.    Deep down, yes, I still feel very much for her.  However, my Gatekeeper is back on Duty.

I myself can not nor should I regret having invested myself into her one bit.   Even if we are not together, there is some small part of me that lives on inside of her.   My investment in another human being is not of complete waste.  Nor was her investment into me either.    It's made me see a few of my own faults and short comings.  

If you feel you are wasting your time, then you have to acknowledge your own feelings and thoughts.   At times, perhaps it's best to simply let things be without any pressure.   At times we can be our own worse enemy with the expectations and pressures we place on ourselves.    Sure you might not be the kind of guy that's into "Obey me or Else", still none the less, there's the element of being in control.    You are doing everything in your own power to show them that you are worth their time.   At times, us Domly types can push ourselves to do things as a matter of principal.   We place high expectations upon ourselves and what others to see us living up to our own expectations.   It does not always shine through like we want it to.

I've come to the conclusion that I shine most in rusty banged up armor now, instead of having to worry about polishing shinning armor and make certain everything is in perfect order.

Face it nobody has gone through life without the battle scares, dings and dents.  Everybody has some form of baggage they carry with them.  I have yet to meet a fully baggage free person.   Baggage can be a good thing, it's a well of experiences that can help provide somebody with wisdom and strength.

Personally, white knights in shinning armor must not take very much risks, cause they are always shining, white and clean.  Not a very balanced display of what it's like to be a human being.   We all have good and bad qualities, we have hearts and our hearts get wounded at times, and we even break others hearts from time to time.

Think the trick, is to go easy on ourselves and other around us.  Get a balanced view of humanity for what it really is and not some false image we are holding onto.   You know such as good things always happen to good people,  bad things always happened to bad people and such.   Bad things happen to good people.  Good people even do bad things.  Good people fail other good people.  Good or Bad?  Who is to really judge anybody?   If something is not right for you, this is the reality you have to face.   That no matter how hard you try, you might just not be able to make it work.  

So, if you feel or believe you are wasting your time, it's something to explore a little more as to why you feel you are wasting your time.   Basically, focus upon yourself and your emotions and own expecations.   Placing too much focus on another human being is not always the best place to find the answers we are looking for.   







Corvidae -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/10/2008 1:34:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah


We hear stories every day of the Dom who had the girl come out with pennies in her pockets just to fuck her, slap her, take a few pictures, and send her home. We know that people whine (Like Myself) about women who are just so untrusting that they never give us a shot. The POINT is that there is another side to that story. I see the damage that has been done. I HONESTLY DO!! I know how Painful putting trust into someone to have them abuse it can be. I KNOW what it is like to be used for nothing more than a good time and sent home cause you aren't good enough to keep. I understand MANY of the submissive trust-wise battlefields. I was young and eager to please too. At one time anyway.


Yes, there is definitely abuse on both sides of the relationship coin, in BDSM and otherwise. I also know how horrid it can feel to be wrenched about by the heart strings (or the short hairs) by someone who doesn't seem to have any regard for your own feelings, especially someone you trusted.

as  for another thing you said:
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
What I don't get is the LIVING with it. I am WORTH more than the value that others place on me and so is any sub who undersatands the true value or surrender. Surrender is a commodity that renders a HIGH value to most and is abused so easily by those that it is freely given to. But Why live life AFRAID to experiene it?

You will Fall
You will Bleed
You will Cry
You will Get Back up
You will Heal
You will be happy again

These are FACTS JACK! So why live life in fear that living it will cause pain, cause withg Pain comes Growth and with Growth comes change and with Change comes New Life!.



For those of us who are cautious to demolish barriers and cross boundaries (especially those that resulted from painfull experiences in the past), it is not always because we are afraid of pain or growth. It may be that we have experienced enough pain to grow into the understainding that we aren't up for something. It takes as much personal growth and strength to say "I know myself well enough to know that I don't want to try that" as it does to say "I know myself well enough to know that I am finally ready to try that."
It is one thing to say "you will heal, you will be happy again," and for most this is the case. However, some wounds never completely heal, and even if they are healed, there should be no compulsion to go poking at them again unless one wants to.



Corvidae -> RE: ~~Barricades~~ The walls we build to protect ourselves (4/10/2008 1:41:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

Think the trick, is to go easy on ourselves and other around us.  Get a balanced view of humanity for what it really is and not some false image we are holding onto.   You know such as good things always happen to good people,  bad things always happened to bad people and such.   Bad things happen to good people.  Good people even do bad things.  Good people fail other good people.  Good or Bad?  Who is to really judge anybody?   If something is not right for you, this is the reality you have to face.   That no matter how hard you try, you might just not be able to make it work.  

So, if you feel or believe you are wasting your time, it's something to explore a little more as to why you feel you are wasting your time.   Basically, focus upon yourself and your emotions and own expecations.   Placing too much focus on another human being is not always the best place to find the answers we are looking for.   




wise words



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