Trouble ahead for the Euro? (Full Version)

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Level -> Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 4:27:31 AM)

quote:

AT THE World Economic Forum in Davos in January 2001, the mood was sombre. The dotcom bubble had burst spectacularly, the Nasdaq stockmarket had crashed, and the American economy was tipping into recession. Yet most continental Europeans were breezily optimistic. The long years of being lectured about their inadequacies by the Anglo-Saxons were over. Europe had wisely skipped the dotcom mania, and its new currency, the euro, was giving the continent a boost. Some Europeans even dreamed of taking over as the motor of the world economy. But it was not to be, as Europe promptly fell into a deeper recession even than America.

Seven years on, the parallels are uncanny. Continental Europe has sensibly avoided America's subprime follies, it is argued. Its banks are in better shape, average euro-area unemployment of 7.1% is the lowest in almost 20 years, the euro is resurgent and, as Joaquín Almunia, the engaging European economics commissioner, insists, there is no sign of a recession. The commission will trim its forecasts later this month, but euro-area growth is likely to stay close to 2% this year. It is true that the European Central Bank (ECB) in Frankfurt has, like America's Federal Reserve, flooded the financial system with liquidity in response to the credit crunch. But unlike the Fed, it has not so far felt the need to bring down interest rates.

Just as in 2001, however, the outlook for the euro area seems to be deteriorating a lot faster than the optimists had expected. After all, the main reason that the ECB has been reluctant to cut rates is not because growth is so robust but because inflation has picked up to 3.5%—the highest in the euro's nine-year existence. Troubles in the region's two biggest export markets—recession in America and slowdown in Britain—are starting to bite. Exports to Asia have been strong, especially from Germany, but in most countries nervous consumers remain reluctant to spend.


http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=11016305&fsrc=nwlbtwfree

Hasn't the uptick for the German economy been due to further embracing of free-market techniques? Just curious....
 




aviinterra -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 4:48:59 AM)

I think the term 'free market' or 'free trade' should no longer be used so positively. A fair market with fair trade should replace this now outdated notion. If our economy nose dives, than so will the German economy- they are just too interconnected to each other. Investors are selling off dollars, the pound is no longer a stable haven, so they will keep pumping into the euro until it can't stand it and finally sinks down also, perhaps even lower than the dollar. Then they will head into the old safety net- metals and natural resources. It must also be taken into consideration that the European Union has drastically altered in the last few years, taking in new member nations that are not going to contribute as much but need financial help in everything from new farming equipment to building roads, putting a further strain in the whole system. All of this should be interesting in the next few years, and some economists have even proposed the radical notion that our system of currency might be forever altered or even be discontinued. A pound of carrots for that neck tie? 




kittinSol -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 4:57:01 AM)

Fact is, the Economist is pissed off that Europe did rather well out of the current crisis. The magazine isn't best known for its support of the European Union [;)] .




SugarMyChurro -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 9:19:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra
I think the term 'free market' or 'free trade' should no longer be used so positively. A fair market with fair trade should replace this now outdated notion.


In terms of keeing information small enough so that the masses can understand it, this is a hugely important point you have made up there.

And KittinSol's take The Economist jives with my own. The only flag to which they show allegiance is to the almighty investor class - at minimum the leisured upper middle-class with profit as their singular motive.




popeye1250 -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 9:35:53 AM)

I could never figure out why the E.U. would want to invite in some of these E. European countries with basket case economies like Romania or Bulgaria.
There's just no upside there.
Who's next to join, Bangladesh, Haiti?
I was going to go to Sweden and Ireland this year but that's out due to the dollar-euro exchange rate.
I just don't feel like paying 50% more for everything.
So, Argentina here I come.




cyberdude611 -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 10:14:15 AM)

Where Europe is going to run into trouble is the issue of social welfare programs and illegal immigration. Muslims in particular are flooding into Europe. France will have more than 1/3rd of it's population Islamic by 2025 at current levels of birthrate and immigration (it's already at 11% right now). What makes it worse is about 50% of these muslims that are immigrating are unemployed...they are living off the state. So Europe is spending an awful lot of money taking care of these people. And that care is going to only get more expensive each year.




NorthernGent -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 12:10:26 PM)

Interesting that, I was reading an article in The Independent about 15 minutes ago and the general theme was that the Euro is performing well, and is outperforming Sterling (which has been the most stable currency in the world over the past 10 years).

Mind you, The Independent is a pro-Europe newspaper.

I suppose all I'm saying is.....'two sides to every story.




popeye1250 -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 12:35:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Interesting that, I was reading an article in The Independent about 15 minutes ago and the general theme was that the Euro is performing well, and is outperforming Sterling (which has been the most stable currency in the world over the past 10 years).

Mind you, The Independent is a pro-Europe newspaper.

I suppose all I'm saying is.....'two sides to every story.


NG, of course!
Do you think they're going to say anything disparraging about it?




NorthernGent -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 12:44:50 PM)

Well, bear in mind that many of us on this side of the channel don't see ourselves as Europeans - we're English, Welsh, Scottish etc. So, an English source will give you an alternative view. Having said that, The Independent is pro-Europe....or pro-France to be exact.

In truth, I don't know enough about the Euro to give an informed opinion, so can't say really. 'Doesn't matter to me though; the Euro could be gold for all I care.




popeye1250 -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 1:02:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Well, bear in mind that many of us on this side of the channel don't see ourselves as Europeans - we're English, Welsh, Scottish etc. So, an English source will give you an alternative view. Having said that, The Independent is pro-Europe....or pro-France to be exact.

In truth, I don't know enough about the Euro to give an informed opinion, so can't say really. 'Doesn't matter to me though; the Euro could be gold for all I care.


NG, funny you mention that.
When I was in Ireland they didn't really consider themselves "Europeans" just "Irish."




NorthernGent -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 1:08:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, funny you mention that.
When I was in Ireland they didn't really consider themselves "Europeans" just "Irish."



It's understandable really.

The US was founded on a common goal and with a common enemy.

Obviously, that's not the case for Europeans - they were our enemies and vice versa. The history is long-standing and the policy makers have got their work cut out to reverse it.




popeye1250 -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 2:15:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, funny you mention that.
When I was in Ireland they didn't really consider themselves "Europeans" just "Irish."



It's understandable really.

The US was founded on a common goal and with a common enemy.

Obviously, that's not the case for Europeans - they were our enemies and vice versa. The history is long-standing and the policy makers have got their work cut out to reverse it.


NG, yeah, being "on the continent" is a whole different thing I guess.
I didn't really consider myself as being in "Europe" when I was in Ireland, just as being ,"in Ireland."
Iceland is considered "Europe" too I suppose.




kittinSol -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 3:18:31 PM)

The interesting thing about Ireland is that it benefited immensely from European Union subsidies. Indeed, without them, there would be no "Irish Tiger".

Another interesting thing: south of the Northern Ireland border with the Republic, there is a MASSIVE trade in Euros. It's actually accepted as a currency in the north.

I think if you ask Irish people from Eire or the occupied territory, they'll tell you that they adore being part of Europe. Being an island hasn't been a deterrent, for sure.




JimNastics -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 3:29:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
I think if you ask Irish people from Eire or the occupied territory


You'll upset 50% of N.Ireland by using such language. Why do it?




Politesub53 -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 3:30:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The interesting thing about Ireland is that it benefited immensely from European Union subsidies. Indeed, without them, there would be no "Irish Tiger".

Another interesting thing: south of the Northern Ireland border with the Republic, there is a MASSIVE trade in Euros. It's actually accepted as a currency in the north.

I think if you ask Irish people from Eire or the occupied territory, they'll tell you that they adore being part of Europe. Being an island hasn't been a deterrent, for sure.


Occupied territory ? Last i heard it was a democracy. Nice of you to speak for all Irish people in the North.




kittinSol -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 3:31:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Occupied territory ? Last i heard it was a democracy. Nice of you to speak for all Irish people in the North.



Damn, it wasn't subtle enough [:D] .




Politesub53 -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 3:33:44 PM)

Be nice to me Kittin, i even had a dig at Thatcher, albeit not Maggie [;)]




Level -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 3:49:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra

some economists have even proposed the radical notion that our system of currency might be forever altered or even be discontinued. A pound of carrots for that neck tie? 


First thing is, I am very ignorant about economics, I think. I've read a little on the subject, and my habit of trying to see how things could/should be floundered when confronting the "dismal science". The one thing I kept coming back to was how none of the current systems work for everyone; so, why can't we change it?




Level -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 3:51:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra
I think the term 'free market' or 'free trade' should no longer be used so positively. A fair market with fair trade should replace this now outdated notion.


In terms of keeing information small enough so that the masses can understand it, this is a hugely important point you have made up there.

And KittinSol's take The Economist jives with my own. The only flag to which they show allegiance is to the almighty investor class - at minimum the leisured upper middle-class with profit as their singular motive.



Yeah, The Economist is coming from the libertarian/classical liberal camp, no doubt.




kittinSol -> RE: Trouble ahead for the Euro? (4/11/2008 3:54:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimNastics

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
I think if you ask Irish people from Eire or the occupied territory


You'll upset 50% of N.Ireland by using such language. Why do it?



Well, it is occupied territory. How else would you call it? A large percentage of the protestant population in Northern Ireland doesn't even feel Irish at all, by its own admission. Besides, they're a dying specie.




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