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RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 2/28/2006 10:41:38 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Oh I understand it. I also know that a great majority of those who claim to have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy are actually just blatantly cheating.

I also know that I don't want the lack of intimacy and sense of long term relationship that you get with that sort of arrangement. If I can't call you at 10 am on a Saturday morning to come pick me up at the airport, or if I can't call you at 3 pm on a Wednesday evening to take me to the hospital- then it's not a relationship to me. It's just play and fucking. I've got people to play and fuck with, who don't have the addition of a family/messy marriage they can't be open with.


In the "don't ask don't tell" universe, discretion is a way protecting your partner's feelings. Next, marrieds are best with other marrieds. My role with my Mistress is not to pick her up at the airport or answer calls in the middle of the night. Her husband does that. The same is true of her to me.

You are right, such an arrangement is quite limiting and how would another person verify it? If you are a verification freak, you'll have a problem. Still, once you've been with someone a good clip, you get a much better idea of what is really going on. Next, a person with an agreement is less paranoid, more open, and better able to be in a relationship because he doesn't have any fear of being found out and has the security of knowing he can continue on down an extra marital path. His only fear, or should I say concern, is crossing a line he is forbidden to cross in his spousal agreement. But all this stuff, the rules that is, is usually out in the open.

Not everyone can be fully out in the open about everything, and the reasons for this are perfectly understandable. So, it doesn't follow that discretion automatically equals lying, but the need for it can be a red flag. I would never dispute your own RT findings in this area. I know that if I were courting you, right after establishing a rapport --- I would have to quickly follow that up with my own limitations and then you'd have to make a decision.

My sense of most marrieds is that they cannot be truly honest with one another. Once married, you are expected to stay "in role" and most marrieds are too threatened to discuss, live with, or tolerate changes in themselves or their spouses. Marital rigidity is compounded by spousal interdependence in the real world pertaining to: children, assets, incomes, roles, and responsiblities. I find this a very sad condition (marital imprisonment, suffocation, claustrophobia etc.), and I'm glad I'm not in that spot. Rather than judge people in that spot, however, I have tremendous sympathy for them.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 2/28/2006 10:53:44 AM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 2/28/2006 10:56:22 AM   
incognitoinmass


Posts: 428
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		Hmmmm. Well, sounds like a little bit of apples and oranges here. In the 'vanilla' world, a spouse has plenty of opportunities to fulfill their submissive side through service. For the men, in days past this might have been referred to as chivalry. He would carry his beloved across muddy paths and slay dragons to protect her. This still is true. You can make dinner, do the dishes, and various other chores around the house, with the children, help with her career, what have you. Somehow though, I don't think this is the real issue.

I think where resistance is met is in the bedroom, in sexual games and so forth. Mommy may think it is fine and dandy to have daddy make dinner and give her a massage but whoa, hold on now, keep that flogger thing out of the house!

And the reverse is true, of course, but I would bet not to the same degree [The ladies present can provide their own perspective]. If a regular vanilla guy in a heretofore vanilla relationship has a partner who reveals that she has submissive desires that she wants to act out in the bedroom, she will probably get less resistance asking him to tie her up and have rough sex, etc. than vice versa.

Maybe it's just me---I don't believe I harbor any secret, as yet undiscovered, desires to be a domme. But I have to admit, having perused hundreds of profiles of all types and surfed the message boards, sometimes I encounter the female subs here and find myself thinking, "cool, how do I get me one of those!"

I personally have met resistance with partners who, although sometimes willing to play along and be a good sport, in the end thought the whole thing was somehow unappealling and vaguely 'gay.'



< Message edited by incognitoinmass -- 2/28/2006 10:58:59 AM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 2/28/2006 11:09:41 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

chivalry


Now there's a concept!

(in reply to incognitoinmass)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 2/28/2006 11:46:57 AM   
chadra


Posts: 32
Joined: 2/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

My sense of most marrieds is that they cannot be truly honest with one another. Once married, you are expected to stay "in role" and most marrieds are too threatened to discuss, live with, or tolerate changes in themselves or their spouses.


I'm thinking that it's good you used the word 'most' in the statement above, because it may be the operative word for what you're trying to say. Better still may have been the word 'some'.

quote:

Marital rigidity is compounded by spousal interdependence in the real world pertaining to: children, assets, incomes, roles, and responsiblities. I find this a very sad condition (marital imprisonment, suffocation, claustrophobia etc.), and I'm glad I'm not in that spot. Rather than judge people in that spot, however, I have tremendous sympathy for them.


I share your sadness for people finding themselves in such predicaments. However, I respectfully disagree with your solution (i.e. don't ask don't tell) to feelings of marital imprisonment, suffocation or claustrophobia. I also might question what interpersonal actions and inactions led up to those marital feelings, and for how long such unproductive behavior went on.

Nowhere in your post do you recognize qualities that 'some' marrieds do find with their partners: loyalty, honor, willing sacrifice, and most of all: love.

respects,
chadra

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 2/28/2006 11:58:39 AM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Why don't vanilla wives learn to value the submissive in their man?


It seems to me that this question answers itself. Vanilla wives don't value their husbands submissiveness because they are vanilla. Vanilla women don't want to be Domina's, or they would not be vanilla. They don't want a submissive man or a dominant one either. They want a vanilla man that most likely will have some traits on each end of the spectrum, but not necessarily leaning one way or the other. They want an equal partnership in the way that vanillas see it.

_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


(in reply to chadra)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 2/28/2006 1:11:53 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chadra

I share your sadness for people finding themselves in such predicaments. However, I respectfully disagree with your solution (i.e. don't ask don't tell) to feelings of marital imprisonment, suffocation or claustrophobia. I also might question what interpersonal actions and inactions led up to those marital feelings, and for how long such unproductive behavior went on.

Nowhere in your post do you recognize qualities that 'some' marrieds do find with their partners: loyalty, honor, willing sacrifice, and most of all: love.

respects,
chadra


First, the thread-line is "Married to vanilla --- now what?" So, in order to explore the "qualities that 'some' marrieds do find with their partners: loyalty, honor, willing sacrifice, and most of all: love" we'd need a new threadline.

Next, "don't ask don't tell" isn't my solution --- its simply one of the operating options out there and it was brought up by ownedgirlie, not me. I know others who use this option, and in many marriages its an implied condition.

As for honesty, I like to think of OLD SCHOOL and Will Ferrel in MARRIAGE COUNSELING, thinking he was "safe in the nest" when he talked about his sexual fantasies. He went from there to out on the curb in about six seconds.

Want some fun, play the streaking game:

http://www.oldschool-themovie.com/_GAME/game.html

(in reply to chadra)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 2/28/2006 1:17:45 PM   
justatoy2


Posts: 163
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		i have a vastly different situation. I am a submissive. Have known for a long time, but for reasons i won't get into here..met and fell in love with another submissive male. After years of trying to supress my submissive urges, i went to him and said..this is what i need. And he is not the one who could supply me with that. While i adore his submissive side, and can totally understand it, it does not fufill me. So we work at it. I am fully capable of topping him and giving him what he needs, at the same time, he is understanding of me going outside the marriage to get my needs met. We talk about it often. How it makes him feel, how i can help him deal with is better..etc. Maybe because i wasn't vanilla to start with..i always valued his submissive side. I also am the more sexual creature of the two of us...so he doesn't have the same cravings as i do. He told me the other night that his happiness comes from seeing me happy. And He means it. What a truly beautiful things to say.
I have had many people ask me..why don't you just leave if your husband doesn't fufill you. Why? because i love him. He is a wonderful husband and a wonderful father to our children. He is a good friend and i try to be a good friend to him. This whole process has been gutwrenching in many ways, but our marriage is stronger because of it. I don't know why i see a higher proportion of men looking outside their marriage then i do women. And its always the same thing i hear...she isnt' interested in sex. So i don't really have any answers, except to say...be honest with your spouse about what it is you need. Try to make them understand how much it means to you and get professional counseling if needed.
good luck out there.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 2/28/2006 5:14:24 PM   
LuvSponge


Posts: 109
Joined: 4/11/2004
Status: offline 		Ya know...after having read every damn one of these posts, contributing one or two myself, watching almost everyone get their back up on one aspect or another, including more than several interpolating their own assumptions ("well, maybe if you'd"...."it's pretty clear that you..."), I have to say, your response/post is probably the best (in my opinion).

The whole question is circuitous.

And she just gave the best answer of all of us.

_____________________________

No matter if you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

(Unless of course she tells you otherwise).

(in reply to yourMissTress)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 2/28/2006 5:51:12 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuvSponge

Ya know...after having read every damn one of these posts, contributing one or two myself, watching almost everyone get their back up on one aspect or another, including more than several interpolating their own assumptions ("well, maybe if you'd"...."it's pretty clear that you..."), I have to say, your response/post is probably the best (in my opinion).

The whole question is circuitous.

And she just gave the best answer of all of us.


i second that. It is what it is. Isn't it?

(in reply to LuvSponge)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 2/28/2006 9:07:38 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: justatoy2

i have a vastly different situation. I am a submissive. Have known for a long time, but for reasons i won't get into here..met and fell in love with another submissive male. After years of trying to supress my submissive urges, i went to him and said..this is what i need. And he is not the one who could supply me with that. While i adore his submissive side, and can totally understand it, it does not fufill me. So we work at it. I am fully capable of topping him and giving him what he needs, at the same time, he is understanding of me going outside the marriage to get my needs met. We talk about it often. How it makes him feel, how i can help him deal with is better..etc. Maybe because i wasn't vanilla to start with..i always valued his submissive side. I also am the more sexual creature of the two of us...so he doesn't have the same cravings as i do. He told me the other night that his happiness comes from seeing me happy. And He means it. What a truly beautiful things to say.
I have had many people ask me..why don't you just leave if your husband doesn't fufill you. Why? because i love him. He is a wonderful husband and a wonderful father to our children. He is a good friend and i try to be a good friend to him. This whole process has been gutwrenching in many ways, but our marriage is stronger because of it. I don't know why i see a higher proportion of men looking outside their marriage then i do women. And its always the same thing i hear...she isnt' interested in sex. So i don't really have any answers, except to say...be honest with your spouse about what it is you need. Try to make them understand how much it means to you and get professional counseling if needed. good luck out there.


My Mistress is a DOM married to another DOM. It seems we are operating in a parallel universe. Next, I am so glad someone finally chimed in with the magic words I especially respond to in Marriage, namely "He told me the other night that his happiness comes from seeing me happy. And He means it. What a truly beautiful things to say. " This is exactly how I feel as well.

As for "I have had many people ask me..why don't you just leave if your husband doesn't fufill you." --- let me just say that the gallerly is just full of knee jerk, stupid, "fix-it" or "leave-it" solutions.

You also say, "Why? because i love him. He is a wonderful husband and a wonderful father to our children. He is a good friend and i try to be a good friend to him. This whole process has been gutwrenching in many ways, but our marriage is stronger because of it." I am finding the same thing, and as for forming a a stronger bond ---- think about how much more of a trust factor you need to open up your own private marriage. Also, think about the giving spirit of the spouse who truly supports you to pursue something independently and potentially threatening. Its just a magnificent thing indeed. Its an achievement in negotiation skills, trust, support, and selflessness. These elements trump possessiveness, jealously, and guilting....

I'm so glad you chimed in here.

Since I've come out as the big extra marital advocate here, I've noticed a big distinction on the general characterization of marriage and what its supposed to be. Those that have been married for 10 plus years have a much more expansive view of the instituion and they have a real knowledge base and foundation as to how a monogamous couple evolves over time. This group is much, much less judgmental about the choices marrieds make to find self fulfillment and remain married. The single folks, serial monogamists, and youngsters view marriage in a more principled and contract sense ---- seeing the bond as rightfully binding because the parties agreed to such an arrangement --- hence in their language you are much more likely to see the verbiage of "lying," "cheating," and "betrayal." This same verbiage is lacking from the longtime married's discourse.

In sum, the longtime marrieds know we don't live in a perfect universe, whereas the non marrieds hold tightly to their own ideals for the instituion. It makes me wonder if the rigidity of the non marrieds, or fixed idealism if you will, prevents them from staying committed to one person for very long.

None of this is meant to suggest that there are not perfectly satisfied monogamous couples out there, but they're the exception, not the rule IMO.

(in reply to justatoy2)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 3/1/2006 5:04:02 AM   
LadyJulieAnn


Posts: 979
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline 		Once again it should probably be pointed out that your situation involves everyone being aware and in agreement of going outside of your marriage to see other people. What many people take issue with is when a person is going outside of the marriage without the spouse being aware.

Be well,
Julie

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 3/1/2006 5:24:51 AM   
MysticalPhoenix


Posts: 212
Joined: 11/30/2005
From: Kelloggsville, Vanilla County MI
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress

Why don't vanilla wives learn to value the submissive in their man?


It seems to me that this question answers itself. Vanilla wives don't value their husbands submissiveness because they are vanilla. Vanilla women don't want to be Domina's, or they would not be vanilla. They don't want a submissive man or a dominant one either. They want a vanilla man that most likely will have some traits on each end of the spectrum, but not necessarily leaning one way or the other. They want an equal partnership in the way that vanillas see it.


And we have a winner!

If they valued the submissiveness in their men, they would not be vanilla wives.

Although in this type of situation, the problem isn't that the wives are vanilla, but they are not the type of vanilla women who prefer to 'wear the pants in the family'. I know those women exist, my grandmother was a very dominant vanilla woman, and her quite submissive husband worshipped the ground she walked on-and she liked it that way. A couple that were close family friends had the same dynamic. In both cases, the wives were taller than the husbands.

I grew up thinking that was what I wanted, too.

So, the problem isn't necessarily that submissive males are married to vanilla wives who don't appreciate their submissiveness. The problem is that these submissive males are not married to vanilla women who do appreciate their submissiveness.

Which means they need to make a decision. Either have a dominant woman on the side or admit that they are not compatible with their wives and find someone they are compatible with.

Phoenix



_____________________________

---------------------------------------------------------
Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are.

(in reply to yourMissTress)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 3/1/2006 5:50:44 AM   
chadra


Posts: 32
Joined: 2/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Once again it should probably be pointed out that your situation involves everyone being aware and in agreement of going outside of your marriage to see other people. What many people take issue with is when a person is going outside of the marriage without the spouse being aware.


Yes, that's true Julie, and thanks very much for pointing it out. Both parties being fully aware of the possibility of outside fulfillment makes all the difference in the world. In my own opinion only, of course. I think others may disagree with the statement, and that's okay.

cloudboy, you have my apology because my post offended. I was responding to your specific words in specific paragraphs, not to their author. I was inferring 'don't ask don't tell' to mean 'don't ask don't tell and vanilla spouse has no idea that s/he has anything to ask about', and I can see upon more careful reading of your post that isn't what you meant at all.

I dislike generalizations as a whole, I guess. YMM definitely V.

quote:

Those that have been married for 10 plus years have a much more expansive view of the instituion and they have a real knowledge base and foundation as to how a monogamous couple evolves over time. This group is much, much less judgmental about the choices marrieds make to find self fulfillment and remain married. The single folks, serial monogamists, and youngsters view marriage in a more principled and contract sense ---- seeing the bond as rightfully binding because the parties agreed to such an arrangement --- hence in their language you are much more likely to see the verbiage of "lying," "cheating," and "betrayal." This same verbiage is lacking from the longtime married's discourse.


Food for thought. I've been married well over 15 years and still do cling to many ideals. However, certainly not in a contractual sense, and not as a concrete paradigm. In that sense, you are spot on. In my experience, one becomes much more understanding that the foundation isn't necessarily stone, but that on the other hand, it sure better not be sand.

quote:

None of this is meant to suggest that there are not perfectly satisfied monogamous couples out there, but they're the exception, not the rule IMO.


Thank you.

{{edited because I can't spell worth a dang}}

< Message edited by chadra -- 3/1/2006 5:51:30 AM >

(in reply to MysticalPhoenix)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 3/1/2006 6:12:42 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress

Why don't vanilla wives learn to value the submissive in their man?


It seems to me that this question answers itself. Vanilla wives don't value their husbands submissiveness because they are vanilla. Vanilla women don't want to be Domina's, or they would not be vanilla. They don't want a submissive man or a dominant one either. They want a vanilla man that most likely will have some traits on each end of the spectrum, but not necessarily leaning one way or the other. They want an equal partnership in the way that vanillas see it.


I'd say it's just as likely a case of they probably don't know they can... value a submissive male that is...or to be precise..value submission in their male. Thankfully we're not them ;)


_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


(in reply to yourMissTress)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 3/1/2006 7:07:47 AM   
Fawne


Posts: 462
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Oh, I understand it. I also know that a great majority of those who claim to have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy are actually just blatantly cheating.

I also know that I don't want the lack of intimacy and sense of long term relationship that you get with that sort of arrangement. If I can't call you at 10 am on a Saturday morning to come pick me up at the airport, or if I can't call you at 3 pm on a Wednesday evening to take me to the hospital- then it's not a relationship to me. It's just play and fucking. I've got people to play and fuck with, who don't have the addition of a family/messy marriage they can't be open with.


I totally agree. Thanks.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 3/1/2006 7:33:18 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		FORGETABOUTIT... (no problem)

(in reply to chadra)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 4/12/2006 5:24:07 AM   
texturedshroom


Posts: 27
Joined: 6/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

Hmmmm. Well, sounds like a little bit of apples and oranges here. In the 'vanilla' world, a spouse has plenty of opportunities to fulfill their submissive side through service. For the men, in days past this might have been referred to as chivalry. He would carry his beloved across muddy paths and slay dragons to protect her.


Chivalry is based in the idea that women are weak and need to be protected. I don't understand the full spectrum of submission, but my view of submission is the total acceptance of the will of your partner and the desire to make them happy; it has little to do with chivalry.


< Message edited by texturedshroom -- 4/12/2006 5:26:21 AM >

(in reply to incognitoinmass)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 4/12/2006 6:12:36 AM   
Mistrix


Posts: 186
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		YES!!
Knowledge is power.....how juicy is that??

(in reply to MistressKay)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 4/12/2006 10:08:08 AM   
acctonthelook


Posts: 245
Joined: 3/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn

I would ask why some submissive men don't seek out women who share their interests before marrying someone who doesn't.


This is true but ppl change, grow, learn something new about themselves or topics or interests all the time.
 
The bigger problem I can see here with the concept is "Why don't more men/ woman Marry someone they can talk to and just be accepted"? 
 
I married young hoping to have unconditional love, not so.  Change happened.  The agreement was not honored.  So much for unconditional love.  My cats give me more than he did! 
 
*Note- My husband was a weak man and had no clue what submission would ever mean! Nor open to ever finding out!
 
I still hold out hope for that unconditional love through life's changes, ups and downs, good and bad times shared.

< Message edited by acctonthelook -- 4/12/2006 10:11:10 AM >

(in reply to LadyJulieAnn)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissi... - 4/12/2006 11:38:48 AM   
CanadianGuy


Posts: 219
Status: offline 		My wife was trying to "value the submissive" in me for years.  Unfortunately for her, there isn't one.

(in reply to wolfinside)
Profile   Post #: 60
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