Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (Full Version)

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PatentLeatherMdm -> Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 1:19:47 PM)

oh, I've heard it so many times before: submissives, with delightful character -- kind, compassionate, devoted, interesting, non-doormat types who can breathe and think simultaneously -- and are married to women who don't share their interests, but are unwilling to even experiment! who make them feel inferior or perverted because of their interests.

well, feed Me; My plate will always be full and cup always running over dining on the sumptious feast that is his submission!

would like to hear from male submissives in this positon and see discussion on what you do to remain sane at home? have you opted to devote your energies to online play only? masterbate to images of your particular brand of "entertainment"? suggestions/ideas/comments/feedback welcomed!




EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 2:59:11 PM)

Couldn't one ask the question why don't submissive males learn the value of their vanilla wives and live in that way?

You can't suggest that YOUR orientation is somehow the "right" one that everyone should aspire to match. Yours is no more or less vital than hers.




darkinshadows -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 3:13:58 PM)

So are you interested in those who submit to someone online with their vanilla partners consent - or against it/behind backs?

I will endeavour to reply when I know the position. Without position, it would be impossible to reply.

Peace and Love




OsideGirl -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 3:20:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatentLeatherMdm

but are unwilling to even experiment!
We choose the things in life which make us happy. If experimenting makes someone unhappy why should they do it?





MistressKay -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 3:40:10 PM)

The question posted: "why don't vanilla wives learn to value the submissive in their man?"

The main reason is the lack of knowledge and fear of seeing their partner who they trusted to share their life with in a "weak" position. Those of us in the lifestyle know this to be a myth - but from an outside view it does appear that submissive men are weak. Unless a man is able to educate his partner from a very different perspective (showing strength in servitude - showing power in submission) odds are the average vanilla woman is going to not only find this uncomfortable but may actually respond in a disgusted manner raging from anger to nausea. These reactions are common when no clarification is supplied.

One thing that has worked well for the submissive men who have come to me for counseling is changing "how" they present submission.

Here is a sample of how just a change of presentation can change the way a woman may respond to their news "Hey honey I'm submissive"

Typical explanation to a vanilla wife:
"I have these submissive fantasies and want you to dominate me"

What she generally hears is - "I am a weak man who wants you to abuse me because I have fantasies of being a pansy" She has no concept of what submission is... she has no concept of what dominate means... she only has what she sees in the media which has no resemblence to the reality beneath the surface.

Had the explanation to the vanilla wife been something as follows the reaction would have been quite different:

"Honey - tonight I want to be your knight in shinning armor... I want to spoil you and treat you like the goddess that I see you as. You are the woman of my dreams and all I have ever wanted - tonight I want to kneel at your feet and give you whatever pleasure you would like. Whether that pleasure be cleaning your kitchen or giving your body a massage - tonight I want to play the role of your knight, showing you just how truely devoted I am to you and your pleasure. I think you are an amazing woman and I love you." <he would then kneel before her taking his cue from her>

In this light he is playing the role of a submissive in his mind - but in her mind he is strong and powerful and showing the depth of his love for her... she can tell him to do things or ask him and she knows he is doing it because he wants to "prove" his love for her. She sees it as a strong position... he sees it as a chance to kneel at her feet and please her... Both get something incredible from it... It isn't a perfect solution, but it opens doors to further exploration or role playing... it shows her that you aren't "sick" or "perverted" (even if you are! <yum>).... it gives her time to get use to your attentions... it gives her time to get comfortable within the role playing... it allows her to accept what you want to give without seeing you as weak... in time with continued gentle urgings that do not weaken the relationship you can begin to explore more new things.

It's all about perception - let her see it a different way so that it doesn't conflict with her moral beliefs or what her vision of what a real man is.

I don't believe we should always shove our own desires in our partners face... especially when we can twist it just enough so that all get what they need within that relationship. In time if taken slowly and with great care for your partners feelings and limitations - things can be explored.
She may never be the Mistress of your dreams - but she is the woman of your heart and with the door open to exploration you could certainly have your cake and eat it too.

Lady Kay
Ottawa, ON Canada




felineone -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 3:57:34 PM)

Yes, and men/women wouldn't screw around, online or otherwise, if their husbands/wives/partners were properly submissive/dominant.

many couples problems are now solved.

woohoo!




theRose4U -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 5:14:17 PM)

quote:

Yes, and men/women wouldn't screw around, online or otherwise, if their husbands/wives/partners were properly submissive/dominant.

many couples problems are now solved.

woohoo!


LMAO where can the rest of us get that magic dust?




Kyle18NY -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 5:28:23 PM)

WOW I WOULD LOVE SOME OF THAT MAGIC DUST ALSO. WHATEVER TWO PEOPLE DO BEHIND CLOSED DOORS IS THEIR BUSINESS![8D]




HYPNOTIC1948 -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 5:32:30 PM)

EXACTLY KYLE![:)]




brightspot -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 5:47:01 PM)

quote:

would like to hear from male submissives in this positon and see discussion on what you do to remain sane at home? have you opted to devote your energies to online play only? masterbate to images of your particular brand of "entertainment"? suggestions/ideas/comments/feedback welcomed!


I think there are many men who can be submissive in many ways without seeming weak or winding up insane[:D]. Being submissive myself (sorry not male) it would depend on how much and in what ways I needed to express myself and be happy...BTW, I wouldn't express myself in any of the alternatives way suggested. I would work with it or leave.

It's interesting only women have answered so far. Now I'm curious just how would you handle this, guys?....Would any of you stay in the marriage and do any of these alternative activities to stay "sane" at home[sm=lol.gif]....For some reason this seems funny to me. Not saying it would be an enjoyable situation[&:].


Edited to add...oops, before I posted this a guy snuck in[:)].

*Brightspot





LadyJulieAnn -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 5:48:57 PM)

I would ask why some submissive men don't seek out women who share their interests before marrying someone who doesn't.

Be well,
Julie




quietkitten -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 6:23:10 PM)

Someone people spend a lot of their lives having no idea that they are inherently dominant or submissive. They fall in love with someone and get married... spend 10 years together and then suddenly wake up one day and realize that something is missing.
Trust me... it happens, it happened to me.
Thankfully I have a great man who is willing to try it out, but not everyone is so lucky.

Is it fair to expect a partner to suddenly make a huge change because their spouse has realized they are submissive? Not many people have a "Dom" switch readily available.
There is no easy answer to this one.....




pandoravampire -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 6:31:30 PM)

Well, litsten to the man bleat like a plaintive lamb, bless.

I think MistressKay's suggestion of how you present it is a wonderful answer, so true!

But if it doesnt float your boat, then you are not going to be compatable. You sir are then left with the choice, of how you will address these needs in your life? A very tricky one, and i wish you luck with it.

Personally, when my partner did the 'hey ive discovered bdsm, im a submissive whip me', yeah, id of gotten a lot futher with the 'can i be your Knight for the night' explanation. We did agree to explore, and im so glad i did. But it led to us parting to go our own paths. So be careful what you wish for, you may just get it. But at what cost?







onceburned -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 6:53:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressKay
"Honey - tonight I want to be your knight in shinning armor... I want to spoil you and treat you like the goddess that I see you as. You are the woman of my dreams and all I have ever wanted - tonight I want to kneel at your feet and give you whatever pleasure you would like.
<snip>
In this light he is playing the role of a submissive in his mind - but in her mind he is strong and powerful and showing the depth of his love for her... she can tell him to do things or ask him and she knows he is doing it because he wants to "prove" his love for her.


Lady Kay, your observation feels right to me. And you expressed it very well! [:)]

I was unaware of this insight when I was faced with the vanilla spouse dilemma. But perhaps other guys reading this will see the value of it. I certainly hope so, for their sakes.




tasha_tart -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/8/2005 7:34:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn

I would ask why some submissive men don't seek out women who share their interests before marrying someone who doesn't.

Be well,
Julie


Several possible reasons spring to mind:

  • not fully aware of how big a part of his nature submission is, or will become
  • young and foolish enough to believe that this is something that can just be turned off in order to become vanilla
  • afraid/ashamed to even breach the topic prior to marriage
  • the lack, perceived or real, of potential dominant partners
  • the desire to "fit in"

Been there, done that...and most of these applied to me. My ex put up with being married to someone who was, in her view at least, "sick", "perverted", and a "fag" (all her words, BTW), far longer than many people would have.

To a great degree, I understand her position, and what I put her through. As another poster has said, it is unrealistic to expect your partner to adopt practices that she may find unappealing at best.

At least I came out of all that knowing that I will not put someone through that again. I also realize that I am far better off on my own than trying, and failing, to be someone I'm not.

tasha




LadyJulieAnn -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/9/2005 6:36:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tasha_tart
Several possible reasons spring to mind:

  • not fully aware of how big a part of his nature submission is, or will become
  • young and foolish enough to believe that this is something that can just be turned off in order to become vanilla
  • afraid/ashamed to even breach the topic prior to marriage
  • the lack, perceived or real, of potential dominant partners
  • the desire to "fit in"

Been there, done that...and most of these applied to me. My ex put up with being married to someone who was, in her view at least, "sick", "perverted", and a "fag" (all her words, BTW), far longer than many people would have.

To a great degree, I understand her position, and what I put her through. As another poster has said, it is unrealistic to expect your partner to adopt practices that she may find unappealing at best.

At least I came out of all that knowing that I will not put someone through that again. I also realize that I am far better off on my own than trying, and failing, to be someone I'm not.

tasha



I agree with the responses to my posting, and generally was referring to those people who know of their interests before committing to someone who doesn't share them, and then seek things outside of the marriage. I kept my interests hidden for most of my life and also entered into a vanilla marriage (I didn't know there was any other type at that point). It wasn't until later, when realizing that people lived in D/s relationships, that those ideas came to the forefront of my mind, and I found myself transforming into someone that I was not in my marriage. I did speak with my husband about it, and he was very uinderstanding, but I also knew that I did not want him to be my sub. We both knew the viability of our marriage was low at that point (BDSM and D/s were small pieces of the demise of our relationship- there were other issues) and ended up going our separate ways in a mutual decision.

I will never settle at this point for anything that I don't really want. It's a lesson that many of us learn the hard way, but once we are true to ourselves and our desires, we can let go of the pressure to conform to a certain idea about how we should live our lives and find someone who accepts us for who we really are and who can share those interests with us.

Be well,
Julie




pollux -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/9/2005 12:13:31 PM)

Lady Kay, I think your advice about the knight in shining armor is wonderful. It sounds great. However, in my experience, it doesn't work very well. The reason is, a married man who is submissive in the bedroom likely already is quite knightly to his wife. It's probably the main reason she married him in the first place. So, in a lot of cases, the submissive man (the quality one, anyway) is offering something to his wife that she's already got (and, in a lot of cases, probably already takes for granted).

What to do?

Well, here is my 7-step plan for exploring kink with your vanilla partner. This worked for me exactly ONE time, so it must be valid advice suitable for posting on an internet message board, right? *laughs* It's long and complicated. Sorry. It's a complicated problem, and it takes time to solve it.

It's probably worth what you paid for it. Try what seems useful and ignore the rest.

1. The first step has to be to accept your own kinky nature and your own kinky desires. Odds are, they can't be cured or fixed. If you're appalled at yourself because of your kinks, or in denial/repression about them, you're gonna get stuck. They are what they are, and it's up to you to find a clever and ethical way to deal with them. Step up to this responsibility, and commit to dealing with it like an adult. You can't skip or gloss over this step. For a lot of men, this is painful and difficult work. Sorry. Life's a bitch.

2. Now, you have to court and establish a relationship with a vanilla partner. Or maybe you've already got one. Either way, this is a lot of work in itself. Lots of advice on this elsewhere. Now, vanilla guys can stop at this point (lucky bastards). The rest of us have work to do. Onwards!

3. First, you must gently find a way for your partner to express and explore *her* fantasies -- whatever they might be. You're going to create a safe, understanding environment for *her* to say what turns *her* on without *you* being judgmental or squicked (this is harder than it sounds. My vanilla partner during the time I was exploring this recipe shared some things that shocked the shorts off of me). You don't have to do these things, but she has to feel safe in telling you her stuff. If you do this for her (ladies first, remember?), she's more likely to be open and understanding when it's your turn. If your partner is sexually adventurous, this step will be easy and it will be fun for her. If she's not, well, then this step has all sorts of latent difficulties and potential dangers. Nancy Friday's "My Secret Garden" might help. Btw, the counterpart for men is her book Men in Love, which is a terrible title because it makes it sound like it's about gay men. But it's not. It's about the sexual fantasies of men. Very edifying and a good help for step 1 if you're stuck there.

4. Now, stretch yourself and imagine that *you* are the dominant partner. It'll be good for you anyway. It'll increase your self-confidence, and get you focused *outside yourself* (lots of malesubs are introverts) -- concentrating on the sensations and mental states you want to arouse in your partner (remember, there's nothing a Domme hates worse than a passive sub, so your explorations into dominance will be good cross-training in not just sitting there and being "done to"). You're going to find some creative ways to allow her to experience what's taboo & forbidden & mind-blisteringly hot for her without freaking her out (or doing anything illegal *laughs*).

5. What can you do? Well, take a page or two from the Femdom playbook and get creative. Have her start keeping a journal. Give her erotic "homework" to perform -- have her pick two of her favorite stories from literotica.com -- one that describes a scenario she would do and one that's taboo/forbidden. Give her a time limit and tell her that if she doesn't pick something taboo enough, you'll pick one for her (leave it to her imagination what sort of real-life conseqences that will have....) Experiment with orgasm denial (my partner was enthusiastic with self-pleasure, so this was very effective). Tell her to invent a kinky/scene name for herself and create a wishlist on Amazon with all sorts of sex toys she'd never use (or would she?). Send her a lipstick vibrator with instructions about when/where to use it (be careful with this one -- don't make her do anything illegal), or send her some creative writing that deals with the malevolent use of a remote-controlled vibrating egg... Play with some gentle bondage and then don't hurt her -- pleasure her. Give her a tantric massage while her hands & legs are bound.

Btw, you don't have to make a big show about being a "dom" or be some kind of demanding bastard or anything. Just wait for a suitable opening, and then be calm and self-assured and just tell her, "I want you to do this for me: ....".

6. Be single-minded in your attention and focus on her arousal. If she starts asking if you're turned on, bring the focus back to her. Believe me, once you get in the vibe of this and if you stay focused this way long enough, you will eventually blow her mind.

7. What starts to happen after a while (weeks) is, miracle of miracles, she actually begins to crave *doing something to you*, either to playfully get you back for tormenting her, or because for her own arousal, she wants to see that she's able to elicit that response in you. After I'd given my partner enough "homework" assignments *evil laugh* she said to me one day, "I don't want to do these anymore. I wanna drive!"

What happened over the course of the next several weeks sated my submissive heart like nothing ever before.

(sadly, my partner and I weren't able to make this relationship long-term for vanilla reasons, but we both had a blast performing this little "experiment").

Now, if you do this, the whole problem of appearing to be "weak" solves itself -- you've already shown you're NOT weak, by being receptive to her needs, and by taking the reigns and being responsible for blowing her mind. You don't have to make her read anything, or explain anything. It's self-evident that you're strong. You also can take the disgust/anger/nausea factor off the table, too -- because you've already made it safe for *her* to risk disgusting *you* when she shared her fantasies.

YMMV.

Edit to add thanks to whoever it was that first posted that link to the Tantra site. Excellent resource. Unfortunately I can't remember who posted it, but it was someone here at CollarMe.




BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/9/2005 1:21:01 PM)

quote:

oh, I've heard it so many times before: submissives, with delightful character -- kind, compassionate, devoted, interesting, non-doormat types who can breathe and think simultaneously -- and are married to women who don't share their interests, but are unwilling to even experiment! who make them feel inferior or perverted because of their interests.
I think that if most male submissives were indeed submitting to their women, they might get more kinky play from her because she would apreciate the type of gentleman he was being in putting her needs first, and working hard to alleviate her suffering/fatigue.
Now, my feeling is you are talking about wives being unwilling entertain the idea of putting on leather, stillettos, pick up a whip and order you to your french maid's costume, that is another kettle of fish! I still believe you can get more of what you want by being/doing more of what she wants, but that is if you married a loving, considerate, open-minded human being... If you didn't , you're screwed, and not in a good way. M




Sardaxia -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/26/2005 1:33:14 PM)

quote:

Someone people spend a lot of their lives having no idea that they are inherently dominant or submissive. They fall in love with someone and get married... spend 10 years together and then suddenly wake up one day and realize that something is missing.
Trust me... it happens, it happened to me.


Me too. I've tried all kind of advice including what Elise Sutton suggests in her book 'Guide to Loving Female Authority' by trying to 'suduce' my partners dominant side. After a few nights of giving foot massages, lighting candles, pampering etc..I got fed up. Why? Because it's a give and take and although she is very understanding of how I 'am', she refuses to dress in anything possibly sexually alluring so I lost interest as I felt stupid and short-changed.

I don't find it a turn on to spoil someone who won't play the part I require, call me selfish but I think it's the other way around![:@]




wolfinside -> RE: Why Don't Vanilla Wives Learn to Value the Submissive in their Man? (10/26/2005 1:41:10 PM)


It isn't only submissive men with the exact problem you describe.

I lived in a marriage for many, many years with a great woman who just wasn't kinky or interested in doing kinky things.

I thought for years that if i could just get her to try some of the things that I liked that she would love it. I was wrong. It doesn't work that way.

You can't change a vanilla person into a kinkster if the basic kink isn't already there to be brought out in the first place.

Assuming you are totaly straight, ask yourself this question, could your wife convince you to like giving head and getting ass fucked by another man while she watched? (if that was her fantasy)

All you can do, is live and love with what you have, or move on to someone who matches you, because she does not. (as I am sure she has repeatedly told you)

Good luck, I hope you can find some happiness.


Wolf




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