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RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 9:18:35 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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I am not surprised at all. I know an amish family that owns a sawmill. The current owner is a son of the previous owner. He, and all of his brothers, were working in the mill from the time they could walk. The proof of that, is in various missing appendages. The girls got "lucky", they stayed home and worked the farm.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 4/15/2008 9:19:01 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 181

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 9:24:10 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Camille65:

Everything we achieve in the context of modern civilized life is predicated on the social contract. Everyone is standing on the shoulders of giants. No man is an island.

Frankly, if you are going to raise his example in this discussion I'd like to know what your father did to become so well off. I think if we dig into the story you will see how he used government benefits to his advantage. Starting from the few things you have given us already I'd say that without a socialized grades 1-12 education your father had no escape. If you end up telling me he plays stocks well, say no more - I've already discussed that elsewhere.

-----

Interesting comparison (a little old now, maybe someone else feels like googling something newer?) on CEO pay:
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/politics_pop/index.html

What explains the differences in pay between U.S. Execs and say those in Japan? Workers are being screwed. Investors are being screwed. We have a club at the top that makes money hand over fist. Everyone else is screwed.

Steve Jobs was at some points on the board of 3-4 corporations at once. Can anyone really provide enough on the job input spread so thinly to justify whatever compensation he was receiving? That's just CEOs exchanging favors in my view. It's great for the CEOs thusly favored, but it costs people raises, jobs, investor dividends, etc... *He worked in a coal mine at the age of 6 not me! Ew. Seeks, he is 79 years old btw.

Oh very wrong Churro. He has never utilised a single government or local assistance group. Nothing. How did he do it?He has a deep ingrained value of the dollar, he counts(ed) every penny. He can tell you the cost of a single TicTac while standing in line at a store. He is stingy with his casual spending money. In his 20's he revolutionized a way to waterproof basements, the newspaper said 'turning basements into gold' on one article about him.As a child growing up I wore KMart clothing and he worked every night long past dark even when he didn't need to. He reuses tinfoil is the way I typically say what he is like. He has also set up section 8 housing in Detroit.Paid peoples houses off when seeing an article about them needing help.Has gone into prison halfway places and set up jobs.He has helped every one of his 16 siblings at some point (financially) with no expectation of being paid back. He can look at a piece of property and somehow gauge if that will be great for project X in five years. His IQ was tested at 190. He worked in the Pentagon as a code-breaker during the Korean War. There are so few with his intelligence and drive, I do not expect people to work as hard as he did. (You cannot imagine the pressure that caused me growing up, the impact of a real life Horatio Alger in the house sometimes was very hard.. still is as I fail)But I will be damned if he has to turn over his hard earned money because others couldn't make it. Oh, he buys generic. Always. Alwaysssssssssss. ETA cuz I spelled 'wore' as 'work' somehow.

< Message edited by camille65 -- 4/15/2008 9:28:58 AM >

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~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

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Post #: 182

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 9:45:04 AM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

Sounds like someone got a patent. That's a thing that doesn't exist naturally but is actually a fiction in law. It's part of the social contract. Part of it is to benefit the inventor for a term of years and then for the invention to enter into the public domain for the benefit of others. That's how the social contract works - you get something, you give something.

I don't think a lot of you really understand what the social contract means in a modern context to you or to people that have benefitted from it. There is an endless amount of benefits that we take for granted. That's why no one is an island to themselves. There is a web of interactions that makes them part of the social contract.

Seeks was earlier talking about cars coming from private industry. Well, what good does it do you without the roads built by the fed and the states to drive those autos upon? We all did that collectively. And this is where we get into areas of discussion like eminent domain, a hotly contested area of law. They take a private right for a public use and then give it to over to the use of a corporation - that happens. Without roads why bother with the cars?

But yes, cha-ching: $$$

Looking at a corporation like Monsanto, consider all the ways that they are favored by governments to profit from the kind of business that they do. Without a patent on various plant DNA their current business strategy wouldn't mean shit. And personally I don't think that DNA should be something that can be patented. Look at the way states protected Monsanto from fines and lawsuits after they dumped chemicals into the environment.

It's all connected.

I see lots of people that got something from society and don't want to pay it back. The only question is why not? It helped you, it should continue helping others. That's how it's supposed to work.

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 183

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 9:49:09 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Not through lack of money because the US can afford to give the rich tax cuts and spend trillions on imperial jollies where the poor are the canon fodder and the rich make a financial killing, all thanks to the charitable president.

A President who was duly elected...
An opposing party Legislature who was duly elected...and still passed the "rich" tax cuts?

Whether or not you like the outcome, it appears that the majority voice of the people in the United States (who bothered to vote) has been heard.

Chomsky puts it better than me. Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.

Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media.

It's not really surprising that many Americans don't question the socia-economic system they have to live in, even when there is evidence in front of their eyes that there is a sort of political cognitive dissonance going on, simply because they have been brainwashed from birth to conform.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 184

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 10:06:53 AM

charmdpetKeira

Posts: 916
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

Two questions:

First, how do you intend to accomplish this given scarcity of resources? There is not an infinite store of everything to simply hand out to everyone; if we have 20 people and only enough food for 15 of them, no amount of hope or guidance is going to magically create more food. The simple fact is that we compete for resources; until you find a way to produce infinite resources, this will always be true.

Do you realize how much is thrown away just to keep prices up. How about how the government pays farmers not to grow food?

quote:

Also, if everyone has the same amount, why should I ever work? Shouldn't I just do whatever I want and know I'll be looked out for regardless?

Being productive does not make you feel good?

Each person would be considered with truth, accepted for what/who they are, respected as such, and acted responsibly toward. What they choose to do is up to them.

quote:

Second, human nature conspires entirely against you.

How can you possibly know this. Have you lived in a place where people were not concerned where their next meal will come from, or other basic needs are met; without them have to kill themselves working, to get it?

quote:

Yes, some people submit by choice, but there are many nations where people are given the choice of submitting or being shot in the head after being tortured.

We’ve got people here left on the streets to die, after they have submitted. Check into the homeless vets.

quote:

I am not exaggerating in the slightest; have a look at Myanmar, for instance, to see what I'm talking about. This is the kind of government you end up with when you put something together based on hope and idealism. There will always be power-hungry and dangerous humans willing to end your life if you do not bow down to them. This must be accounted for somehow, and hoping to guide and mentor them isn't going to do jack shit. How would you solve that?

It is hard to account for how much will be left over, of the type of thing you are bringing up here, without knowing the full effects of people not being worried about how they will “get by”.

quote:

I see you also say you haven't worked out the details - that is because the details cannot be worked out. The painting example previously (nice example, by the way) lays this out nicely. You are trying to create a system that alters reality; this can't be worked out.

The minds of the people alter reality all the time. I’m only asking them to stop.

quote:

If you really want to refine your theories, you need to start learning some economics.

Here’s the thing; I do not wish to change anyone’s life for them. They will have to do it themselves, but I am willing to do my part in helping; so that we can all stand.

I do not have all the answers. I never will. Why?

Because I am only one small piece to the puzzle, and the answers lay in each us.

How about if people stop saying it won’t work for just a moment (think of it as a game), and start trying to figure out how it could work?

Try not to leave out things that we could have, if we were geared toward progress instead of playing king of the mountain.

K

_____________________________

Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

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Post #: 185

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 10:07:40 AM

QuietlySeeking

Posts: 297
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You are putting words into my mouth. Getting rid of poverty doesn't require everyone being paid the same, it requires everyone having enough for their basic material needs (food, clothes and home), a good quality education and good quality of health care. My argument is that capitalism requires some people to be without basic needs and others fearful that they too could end up in poverty with decent health, education and basic material needs. The fear is to get people up every morning and work for monkey nuts to make the rich richer.

Yes, this goal is achievable but capitalists don't want to achieve it.

I'm simply trying to break down your argument to understand the underlying ideology, not to "put words in your mouth"

Please tell me who will determine what "basic material needs" are. The government? The People? Those who believe the same way that you do? that I do? If everyone gets the "basic material needs" met by the government (if not by their own hard work), have I mistakenly identified this as a socialist position?

The highlighted statement supports my earlier posts, yet your earlier posts seem to decry my simple statement...Some people have more. Some people have less. This is the "Capitalist Delusion", isn't it?

Minimum wage is about $750/month after taxes. Utilities and Apartment with room-mate: $300/month; Health Insurance: $100/month; Food: $150/month; Transportation: $75/month; Clothing: $50/month @ consignments...leaves about $75/month.

College Education: Pell Grants/State Grants/Federal Grants/Federal Loans: $0 while going to school.

Healthcare: Expensive, but most hospitals and doctors have charity care at a reduced rate.

What am I missing? These are doable figures in my area of the country. In rural TN, the rent is about the same, but I wouldn't need a room-mate. Oh, and I haven't even begun to take a second job here....or work over-time.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 186

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 10:17:33 AM

cjan

Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline

RealOne, I feel that your cherry picking ( out of context) of Bradley "quotes" , and your one liner comments are not worthy of a response.

Btw, have you considered a career in writing 15 second political tv ads ? I think the Swift Boat crew has some openings.

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 187

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 10:21:24 AM

QuietlySeeking

Posts: 297
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Not through lack of money because the US can afford to give the rich tax cuts and spend trillions on imperial jollies where the poor are the canon fodder and the rich make a financial killing, all thanks to the charitable president.

A President who was duly elected...
An opposing party Legislature who was duly elected...and still passed the "rich" tax cuts?

Whether or not you like the outcome, it appears that the majority voice of the people in the United States (who bothered to vote) has been heard.

Chomsky puts it better than me. Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.

Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media.

It's not really surprising that many Americans don't question the socia-economic system they have to live in, even when there is evidence in front of their eyes that there is a sort of political cognitive dissonance going on, simply because they have been brainwashed from birth to conform.

And I find it amusing that someone who is not from the US would choose a quote that more aptly applies to their own country. The US is not a "Democracy"; it is a Constitutional Federal Republic.

When I point out that we have followed the rules that our Constitution provides (the foundation of any Constitutional form of government), I am accused of being brain-washed by propaganda. When I provide examples, I am told they don't matter. When I re-word to try to understand someone else's position, I am "putting words in your mouth".

And by the way, the "brainwashed from birth to conform" bit doesn't fly with me. I was a warm and fuzzy "overturn the whole apple cart" kind of person, until I read a little world history and learned that overturning the apple cart tends to worsen the situation, rather than improve it. I'd rather have the broken system that we have, than any of a dozen others that have been bandied about as superior, yet in application would have gaping holes when applied to a country/economy the size of the United States.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 188

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 10:23:59 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

Why do you keep insisting that it is impossible for someone to devolop their own wealth without being 'bad'? No he did not patent it. He gave it as public domain. I forgot to add that he also had a period where he was a pool shark, that was in his late teens. He did things impossible for most people and really impossible for these current times. Mostly what he did was refuse to be poor ever again and made sure that he worked hard enough to make that a reality. He is not corrupt. Or a liar. Or a scam artist. Or had a time living off the government unless you count his stint in the Army? He is however a very rare person, but a person who has proved beyond all doubt that one man can make it on his own. Argh. I can't spell very well today.

< Message edited by camille65 -- 4/15/2008 10:24:42 AM >

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 189

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 10:36:31 AM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

I am saying that the whole fabric of society is what everyone owes back to. The plumbing, the roads, the electrical, the schools, the libraries, etc.

How is that bad?

But yes, there are plenty of bad citizens, esp. corporate ones.

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 190

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 10:47:01 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

Plenty of bad across the board, but the 'bad' from those that have money and power... effect many. I've got a lot of stories that I cannot share on a public board proving that some of the uber rich are truly viscious people, but only some. Others are incredibly generous, it is just your basic mix of people that happen to also have/earned massive monies. I don't know of a solution but things do need to change, I just don't know 'what' things. If people have no will to improve their immediate world then all the education available won't make a difference. If people are smacked down at every turn then yeah it is easy to give up after awhile and ride on welfare. To stay in their current lifestyle because changing it is near impossible. I know it is hard to see someone oozing money when you are frightened over next months bills. I have been on both sides. Right now I need real help from my government but I can't get help and sometimes I'm so scared I just cry. I can look back at growing up next door to Lee Iacocca with envy or.. I can see it for what it was.It was the life my father built, not my life.My life is right here, right now. Even if it is fecked lol. Ah hell it doesn't matter. All the typing in the world will change nothing. What will? Does my donating huge amounts of clothing help?Does that stupid 20 I send to my local lighthouse project help? It is all a mess. All of it. I can be bitter, or I can suck it up and hope I don't choke.Your second sentence brought to mind the Tennessee Valley (forgot the rest of the name dangit) projects of the 1930's.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 191

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 2:17:53 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Not through lack of money because the US can afford to give the rich tax cuts and spend trillions on imperial jollies where the poor are the canon fodder and the rich make a financial killing, all thanks to the charitable president.

A President who was duly elected...
An opposing party Legislature who was duly elected...and still passed the "rich" tax cuts?

Whether or not you like the outcome, it appears that the majority voice of the people in the United States (who bothered to vote) has been heard.

Chomsky puts it better than me. Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.

Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media.

It's not really surprising that many Americans don't question the socia-economic system they have to live in, even when there is evidence in front of their eyes that there is a sort of political cognitive dissonance going on, simply because they have been brainwashed from birth to conform.

When I point out that we have followed the rules that our Constitution provides (the foundation of any Constitutional form of government), I am accused of being brain-washed by propaganda. When I provide examples, I am told they don't matter. When I re-word to try to understand someone else's position, I am "putting words in your mouth".

You gave an anecdote to prove a point you made, I simply said anecdotes don't prove anything.

I know the US constitution is sacred to Americans, that it is an ideological constitution but where does it actually say it is officially an ideological capitalist state? Where does it say that the poor should be denied healthcare? Where does it say the poor should be denied decent education, decent housing or that they should be forgotten about in natural disasters? They are policies followed by a government, a government that looks after the rich at the expense of the poor. That has nothing to do with the constitution, it has to do with the socio-political culture.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to QuietlySeeking)

Post #: 192

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 2:35:06 PM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Where does it say, in our constitution that those that create wealth should give to those that, for whatever reason, cannot or choose not to? Just curious....

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 193

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 2:45:34 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

Where does it say they can shirk their responsibility to "coin" money?

This is a post-constitutional era. Everything is up for grabs.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 194

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 2:51:14 PM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Where does it say they can shirk their responsibility to "coin" money?

This is a post-constitutional era. Everything is up for grabs.

They who? The wealthy? The federal government?

I think we've created enough government handout programmes to last a life time. After some of the abuses I have seen, making it more difficult for an individual to take advantage of handouts would not hurt my feelings.

See, I don't believe everyone is entitled to sit on their arse and watch television while sipping a cold beer or soda. I believe that the work ethics this country was built upon have come close to vanishing.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 195

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 2:54:07 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

Yeah, it's interesting you have to ask...

Let's talk more about values. Creating wealth has become as easy for some as printing money. But right, let's talk more about welfare moms and so on...not banks and war profiteers.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 196

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 2:57:08 PM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

I think it is very easy to place blame on people we envy(wealthy) or abhor(people we see as slackers and mooching off the system). Quite simply because it is always easier to point a finger than do our part to fix it.

Personally, I think the responsibility for financial woes of this country, rest on all of us.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 197

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 3:46:57 PM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I am not surprised at all. I know an Amish family that owns a sawmill. The current owner is a son of the previous owner. He, and all of his brothers, were working in the mill from the time they could walk. The proof of that, is in various missing appendages. The girls got "lucky", they stayed home and worked the farm.

I bet the boys still have an appendage that girls haven't got.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 198

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 4:31:02 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
How can someone be expected to excel if they cannot be rewarded?

You seem to assume that all rewards worth having are financial, how capitalistic.
Beyond certain material needs, the rest is just excess, a distraction, instant gratification and waste. We destroy our habitat so capitalists can flourish, we produce far more than we need but a certain amount of people still have to do with out because capitalism requires poverty to function. Beyond certain material needs, the rest is just excess, a distraction, instant gratification, an unfullfillable desire so people with excess still require more because the system we have has instilled in them a need to chase something that doesn't exist.

I do my best to excel at what I do because I enjoy what I do, the reward is not financial but the satisfaction of doing something well.

MC, what about those that don't care about "the satisfaction of doing something well", or important?

I believe incentive is important, whether that means pursuing a passion, or getting a paycheck. That, to me, seems the gist of it all-- balance having a fire lit under people's ass (one way or the other), and making sure those that are in need have those needs met.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 199

RE: The sting of poverty - 4/15/2008 4:50:03 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline

I don't know what makes people think that social services has to be an ongoing handout month after month, year after year...

This is about helping people get the kind of training and education they need to start with, and then also providing sufficient safety nets throughout life to make sure that they get what they need when they fall down.

This isn't about ongoing corporate welfare, that's a different subject and costs more.

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 200

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