RE: The sting of poverty

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SugarMyChurro -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 10:27:59 AM)
I find myself agreeing with KittinSol, HippieKinkster, Cjan, and Meatcleaver - all as per usual. Taxes are about the same between the U.S. and European nations - in the U.S. we just don't get the value for the money, unless you think wars are a good investment and a sensible way to make friends internationally. When some of us talk about wealth redistribution and others talk about training I see it as people discussing the same thing from different ends. We all want to teach people to fish for themselves and not just hand them a daily fish - and that's what they want as well. In Europe there are all of these socialized safety nets that make fishing for yourself fairly easy. Here in the states you need the financing - the money! But it's the same fucking thing really. It's just a matter of how you want to go about it - do you want to just hand people money, or create a web of safety nets and services that allow people to help themselves? I have discussed some of these issues literally to death on these boards. Social contract, value for the money, etc - been there and done that. Some of you need to listen and drop your way of wanting to do it. It's not working now and isn't going to work ever. Why shouldn't we follow in the footstep of the successful nations that have actually remedied their situations? Other nations have copied our constitutional form of government and our bill of rights. We should now copy their economic and social service systems. A hybrid capitalist - socialist system will work and make everyone happy.

BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 10:29:41 AM)
I have said many times if we redistribute the wealth tomorrow those that gave it up would have it all back within the year why because most of the poor doesn't know how to value a dollar or is because they don't have many to start with..I remember the days of working 14 to 16 hours a day keeping a family and sending two girls to school..Every dollar that could be squeeze out was invested,,sure I suffered back then but in my so called golden years I am comfortble..Earned wealth is entirely different then those trust fund baby's,I own a trust fund slave she works as a first grade teacher,however she knows the value of a dollar and is always helping out those that need it..Poor folks need educated about the value of money and how it can enhance their lives if they only put a little to work for them selfs..How are we to break the shackles of poverty ,you got me...IT not so easy to sit here and judge those that are from hand to mouth every day of their lives..bounty

kittinSol -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 10:30:08 AM)
If poverty is an intricate and necessary element of the capitalist system, would you agree that there is no need for cash-poor people to live in abject destitution? With the amount of tax-revenue available, how about distributing it to the schools and hospitals? How about improving housing conditions? It amazes me that people LIVE in mobile homes because they can't afford anything else. Mobile homes! It's unbelievable. Since there has to be poor bastards, perhaps this wonderful system of ours could at least make sure they don't have to live like rats. I ask again: should poverty be a cause for further punishment? Are wage-slave people morally defficient? And shouldn't there be some form of compensation for being a necessary actor in the economic system so many cherish? Let's pay the poor to remain poor.

Real_Trouble -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 10:42:56 AM)
To respond to a couple of things: Churro, you will notice I am in favor of adopting some of the economic practices of various European nations. The biggest change this will require in the US is spending less on defense and more on social programs. I do not view this as an entirely bad thing. Kittin: quote: If poverty is an intricate and necessary element of the capitalist system, would you agree that there is no need for cash-poor people to live in abject destitution? With the amount of tax-revenue available, how about distributing it to the schools and hospitals? How about improving housing conditions? It amazes me that people LIVE in mobile homes because they can't afford anything else. Mobile homes! It's unbelievable. I do agree that people should not undeservedly be living in abject destitution. There are some who I am not too worried about this fate for (career criminals come to mind), but one should only be put there through one's own ridiculously poor choices. I don't disagree that we should have some effort to prevent people from being insanely poor, but at the same time, I go back to my initial point: I would prefer to give people the opportunity to live well, rather than give them the guarantee of living somewhat poorly. People will achieve remarkable things when the incentives line up with their self-interest. What I don't want are situations where, by not working at all, someone is still assured of a relatively decent quality of life. Freeloading is not fine by me. Likewise, there are far worse things than living in a mobile home. I have a few friends from China who would be happy to comment on that, I'm sure. Even the poor in America enjoy a much higher standard of living than most, and certainly, much higher than poor Americans 100 years previous. So we are making some progress, but I will never be for a "minimum" standard of living unless people put some work into it. Lastly, please don't claim that my statement that there must be poor people means that people must be stepped on, oppressed, or forced to live in extreme poverty. I mean that in any system based on achievement, there must be people who have more, and there must be people who have less, and this should be based on merit as much as possible. Thus, relative to an average, you will always have people below (poor) and people above (rich). That's just how the system works. That's not to say the poor should be crushed, or the rich should own everything, but that degrees of wealth encourage some positive things from a societal standpoint. Would you disagree with me that we should have incentives for achievement? Or do you think everyone should be forced to have completely equal possessions and wealth regardless of ability and social contribution? Do you believe that if I have earned everything I have, I should be forced to give it away to someone who went bankrupt through their own folly and stupidity and is now living in poverty? If I was responsible and restrained, should I have to give my money away to someone who was not? quote: Since there has to be poor bastards, perhaps this wonderful system of ours could at least make sure they don't have to live like rats. I ask again: should poverty be a cause for further punishment? Are wage-slave people morally defficient? And shouldn't there be some form of compensation for being a necessary actor in the economic system so many cherish? In short? Sometimes. If they are poor through their own self-inflicted wounds, fuck them. They can dig themselves back out of it. If they are poor through circumstances beyond their control, and were not offered opportunity, then yes, I have some sympathy for them and think they deserve to be given the opportunities available to most. Do you think that the middle class or rich, who have arrived there through their own hard work and responsible choices, should be stripped of their money so that drug addicts, criminals, and those who refuse to work or attain an education / valuable trade skills can enjoy a better standard of life?

charmdpetKeira -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 10:45:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble And to Keira - my point is not that our government is perfect; nor would I advocate anyone move to Cuba! I didn’t mean to imply that you were. Just trying to give you a sense of my perspective, from where I am standing; you know, small town, NH. quote: My point is that we shouldn't make compartmentalized comparisons and then claim our government is worse in a blanket sense. I agree. Perhaps this makes me selfish, I don’t think this is the time to be worrying about what everyone else has. quote: I do agree there are things we can (and should) do better, but let's not overstate the case as to how bad things are, either. I am unsure if you are saying I’ve overstated, or people in general have over stated. If you are referring to me; I would sincerely appreciate you showing me where. quote: Likewise, I'm not an advocate of no government either. The reason I say no government, is because I believe it is unrealistic, to think one can have liberty and law. Instead I believe what should happen to people when they are either unable, or choose not to follow the goal; should be referred to as natural consequence. That we should not punish, but teach; not control, act reasonable toward; not worrying about being “right”; seek truth; not conform, accept; not criticize differences, but respect. k

Real_Trouble -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 10:58:17 AM)
quote: The reason I say no government, is because I believe it is unrealistic, to think one can have liberty and law. Instead I believe what should happen to people when they are either unable, or choose not to follow the goal; should be referred to as natural consequence. That we should not punish, but teach; not control, act reasonable toward; not worrying about being “right”; seek truth; not conform, accept; not criticize differences, but respect. Yes, but the problem with no government is that it will quickly transform into government by the people you least want governing. For all that you believe, I guarantee there will be someone charismatic who believes they have a right to power, and they will attract followers, and will then take over and establish a despotism if there is no organized government; anarchies do not exist for long. They are often conquered, either externally or internally (just look at how the Romans, Russians, Mongols, or Greeks expanded for some evidence of this, and who they were taking over), or things go to hell and you end up with warring factions (Somalia, for example). No government is not now, and will never be a viable alternative so long as humans lust for power. Or do you have a counter to that? What, if there was no government in the US, would stop another country from taking us over and pillaging our natural resources? Say China or Russia, just to pick the two usual boogeymen? Likewise, do you really want a bunch of private citizens owning our nuclear arsenal? How would you feel if Manson or Dahmer had those? No government can be nice in theory, but is terrible in practice.

Gwynvyd -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 11:13:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd Not knowing what to do after school ( or even university Ed. ) is just silly for us. Towards fully understanding the situation. There are some, who take a very long time to figure out what we want to be when we grow-up. I imagine, some never do. In my specific case, I believe it comes from a lack of personal desire. (Not to be confused with a lack of passion.) k Hell I have given a bash at quite a few things... I am trying to set on one of 3 things.. ( all kind of inter related actualy) as I have grown and changed I have changed careers. but a large amount of people.. even people who go and get a higher education flounder and have no idea even where to start. There has to be something we can do about that... Gwyn

Gwynvyd -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 11:34:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble There is a dramatic difference between redistributing hereditary wealth (which I am for) and earned wealth (which I am against). If I did nothing more than inherit a few hundred million dollars, say (to put things on par with past aristocracy), then I agree, locking that wealth up solely through heredity is not a good manuever. I am for even more aggressive estate taxes than we currently have, in fact, to prevent this very situation from occurring. However, if someone develops cold fusion, and then all the profits are taken from them and redistributed to the rest of the United States, I am going to be extremely displeased! That person did the work, why should they not have the reward? Sure, their kids don't deserve to be fantastically wealthy just by being lucky enough to be that person's kids, but people should be rewarded for their just contributions. As to the poor? Yes, there should be poor people. I'm sorry if not everyone likes that, but to quote a professor I once had, "not everyone can be a rocket scientist". Not all humans are equal; some people contribute more, and some people contribute less. The bottom line that if someone is poor, uneducated, and has made foolish life decisions (such as having multiple kids early, digging into major debt through their own spending, etc) despite being offered the same opportunity as everyone else, that's their own problem. The rest of the world is not here to subsidize idiociy. Go to school, or learn a trade skill. Develop something other than manual labor, make responsible financial decisions, don't commit crimes, etc. It is possible, and we should do a better job of making it possible, but there are those who will fail even when handed everything on a silver platter. I know a few. My final point is this, though: all systems that have tried to equalize income distribution so far have failed, and often spectacularly. They consistently produce major corruption, lack of incentives, lack of progress, and equality for many... meaning that everyone is equally poor and destitute. I can not agree with you here.... Personaly I think the bloody death tax should be abolished. A very close friend of mines whole family lost everything they had because the matricarch of thier family died. They had little to no cash or cash equivelant... but a decent plot of land. It being Florida and the Land having been in the Family for Ages the value of the land had sky rocketed. The money they owed the govt on the death of the realtive was staggering. These folks were Farmers and ranchers.. I used to muck out thier stalls as a teen ager. They had to sell every last bit of thier farm, and land to pay the govt the death tax. The IRS got involved and hit them for everything. by the time the govt was done they had no money for thier children, or them selves.. and couldnt hardly afford to live in the same town. A large developer raped them on the price.. then developed these $500,000+ a pop homes on thier land. ( The land I knew like the back of my hand from horse back ) it made me sick. If your family has worked and earned thier money they should keep it. So sorry your family didnt have the planning. Make your start.. I might loathe my family. I might have flipped them off, mooned them.. and not take a damn penny from them.. (ever) or even turn to them when I am about to hit the streets because I am too damn prideful to kiss thier asses... but my grandfather busted his ass for that money. Other family members continue to bust thier ass and contribute. Some are wankers and just live off of it and do nothing but suck away at the funds. They are still family.. and that is what "is done" you support family. ( Look at the Dupont family.. that nutter bunch ) Gwyn, Happy little Black Sheep

Marc2b -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 12:01:50 PM)
Are some people poor because of outside circumstances beyond their control? Certainly, but not nearly as many as some would have you believe. I used to drive Taxi and I can tell you that as I cruised the streets I would often see the same people sitting out on their porch day after day... ...except at the start of a new month (in other words, when the welfare checks went out). Then I would get those people in my cab. They’d go to the store, cash the check, then buy a month’s worth of beer, cigarettes, and generic brand macaroni and cheese. The whole time I’d have to listen to them complain about how the government doesn’t do anything for them. I had to suppress the urge not to turn around and shout, "why don’t you get off your lazy ass and get a job like I did you fucking whiny moocher?!". I forget who first said it (so all due credit to whoever credit is due) but someone hit the nail on the head when they said that the best thing we can do to fight poverty is not be poor ourselves. Just a thought – if redistribution is the answer then why should I work to earn a living? Why shouldn’t I just sit back and wait for the government to take someone else’s money and give it to me?

charmdpetKeira -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 12:18:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble Yes, but the problem with no government is that it will quickly transform into government by the people you least want governing. The problem for me, in explaining what I am proposing; is the difference in my perception of the term "control". As a pet, I do not seek someone to control me. I am looking for someone to guide me, who wants to get to know me, and utilize my abilities, while encouraging me to work toward fulfilling my capabilities; in accordance with whom I am. Of course this person would want to do this, because with the right person, my ablities should be a complament to what they need, and vise versa. The concept of being able to control someone, is an illusion of sorts. You can restrain someone, condition them, deprive them; but in the end, if they go down on their knees, they chose to. (Metophorically) Don’t get me wrong, I am not implying in any way, the above conditions are not real, often violent, or that I am not prone to them myself. Nor do I deny they are very useful tools in getting someone to submit; especially, if they are unaware of what is going on. We fight for ourselves. We do it as a team, and we divvy out jobs according to need, abilities, and willingness to be responsible. We encourage fulfillment of capabilities, under the concept, “where you have progressed, I have also progressed”. My ideas would mean, no one would need to bust their ass, if they did not choose to; everyone would be able to prosper; therefore, no need to be rich. No rich; no poor. Of course, this would only work if we were able to do what I mentioned before. We would never have fallen into this trap, if our forefathers had just taken more credit, for their part, in gaining our liberty. It would seem they traded one keeper of another; or worse. k

missfrillypants -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 12:36:24 PM)
lot's of people already had it right... healthcare so people don't lose everything if they get sick, a higher wage, better programs to educate people for better jobs so they can make more money, cut the pork in the us government so that it can work more efficiently on the domestic front. that being said, i fell asleep on the couch today and my brother left the tv on. i woke up because there was some woman on my telvision saying "oh, well, 17,000 dollars is a little more than i had planned for my wedding dress but i absolutely love it." for 17,000 you could buy a house. by using small, talented tailors who are online friends of mine or even shopping faves, i could not only get every woman who posted on this forum topic their dream wedding dress or non matrimonial or non dress dress up outfit that was equivalent, CUSTOM TAILORED, and i'd also have enough money left over for naughty lingere. there was another woman paying 2.00 per cupcake for undecorated cupcakes. at the samll bakery where i work, even with the cost of flour being at record highs, we could have gotten her gorgeously decorated cupcakes, at the very least 2 of them per dollar, probably with a remainder. the point is, if you want to help people who are poor to have more money to live on, take your money to small businesses. often they are able to give you more for your money, and one big order at the bakery or to my seamstress friends can actually make a huge difference in the sucess of the person instead of being a drop in the bucket to a larger company. and yes, small businesses are more likely to go above and beyond in order to make customers happy. it's something anyone can do with their money, from big things to small things, and if you ARE rich enough to spend 17,000 on a wedding dress, you can donate the rest to charity or put it into buying a home.

Gwynvyd -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 12:37:13 PM)
"My ideas would mean, no one would need to bust their ass, if they did not choose to; everyone would be able to prosper; therefore, no need to be rich. No rich; no poor. Of course, this would only work if we were able to do what I mentioned before. We would never have fallen into this trap, if our forefathers had just taken more credit, for their part in gaining our liberty. It would seem they traded one keeper of another; or worse. " This would be an ideal situation for most.. however you would have to retrain all of human nature from people. Humans are inately nasty, vile, selfish, greedy little bastards. The human race rises to great heights of wonderous deeds for thier fellow man, on occasion but the depths of the greed, avarice, senseless hatred makes the world you envision impossible. However if you wanna start with those OPEC bastards.... I am sure we can round up some Goombahs.... Gwyn

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 12:51:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster and the willing complicity of the right (predominantly) in the raiding of the treasury because the Nascar Neocons thought (and still think) they'll hit the theft jackpot somehow. I was ok until you bashed Nascar.... Now I am crying foul... Not on my watch buddy. chuckles Gwyn, Nascar junky like you would not believe. My boy Smoke needs to get back into a damn Chevy... thats all I gotta say about it. mumbles under her breath Well, if you call making 2000 consecutive left turns a "sport", I fear you are lost to the Dark Side. [8D]

seeksfemslave -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 1:04:06 PM)
This is a fascinating debate to read as it has brought out the basic split between Right Wing and Left Wing attitudes to the socio/economic problem of poverty. Particularly poverty in the midst of plenty. Both undeserving poor and undeserving rich exist and always have. As do the deserving poor and rich. Yes deserving poor. I think there is no solution to this difficulty and the best that can be hoped for is that a state ie federal government will maximise the economic freedoms of the maximum number of people. If that is done then it follows that extremely rich people will emerge who will most likely try to bend the system for their own advantage. That is when the true test of government independance, by the people for the people if you like, will occur. The alternative of state ie federal control of everything attempting to create just societies doesnt seem to work very well in the sense that compared with freer societies there are fewer wealthy people, usually the state apparatchiks and the privileged intelligentsia , while the overwhelming masses live quite restricted lives with low general standards. No solutions or slogans, just the way I see things.

camille65 -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 1:08:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missfrillypants if you ARE rich enough to spend 17,000 on a wedding dress, you can donate the rest to charity or put it into buying a home. How do you know that although she paid $17,000.00 for her dream wedding dress that she also hadn't just donated the money to build a childrens wing at the local hospital? It seems that the extremely wealthy are not being seen as individuals, many of whom got that way on their own merit. As R_T said are we going to penalize those that strive and create by taking away the monetary incentive? I know someone who revolutionized a way to waterproof basments using non-toxic means, that was the start of his wealth. He also gives away an enormous amount of money every year beyond the taxes he pays to live where he lives. While I wholeheartedly agree that there is a problem I cannot see how telling people what they can or cannot buy (like a wedding dress) unless they donate X amount of money will change things. I've seen nothing feasible offered, only some sort of judgemental punishment instead. This is bashing of a certain minority. The small percentage of those with what is called disproportiant wealth.

Gwynvyd -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 1:13:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster and the willing complicity of the right (predominantly) in the raiding of the treasury because the Nascar Neocons thought (and still think) they'll hit the theft jackpot somehow. I was ok until you bashed Nascar.... Now I am crying foul... Not on my watch buddy. chuckles Gwyn, Nascar junky like you would not believe. My boy Smoke needs to get back into a damn Chevy... thats all I gotta say about it. mumbles under her breath Well, if you call making 2000 consecutive left turns a "sport", I fear you are lost to the Dark Side. [8D] Come to Daytona in July http://www.daytonainternationalspeedway.com/tickets/tickets_travel/ and I will explain the nuances of the track and drivers to you... how each car and engine has it's own soul... how brakes, tires, pitstops.. and even stopping for gas at just the right moment matters. Gwyn

GothishNomad -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 1:16:25 PM)
As a person who grew up in the "working poor" class I think people miss the levels of poor in this country. A couple of girls I went to school with are what most will consider poor - they work part-time, have a few kids; they also have free health care & daycare, free or near free prescription drug coverage, receive monthly "stipends" from the government, pay $20 - $40 a month in rent, and receive both food & energy assistance. They are "poor." I have a college education (that I paid for with loans & a much welcome grant.) I don't have children, I work 40-60 hrs a week, I pay both my rent (1/2 of 800) and my utilities - I can't afford the crap health insurance offered through my job because yes, $50 a week really means that much to me, when my hours are cut I can stretch $30 for groceries to last right about 2 weeks, I qualify for nothing - I fall behind I have nothing. But what I do have is my work ethic and quite honestly it seems that that is where I have gone wrong. Circumstances for some of us are not what they are for others.

subtee -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 1:16:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster Well, if you call making 2000 consecutive left turns a "sport", I fear you are lost to the Dark Side. [8D] At least they're "lefts"...

charmdpetKeira -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 1:18:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd Hell I have given a bash at quite a few things... I am trying to set on one of 3 things.. ( all kind of inter related actualy) as I have grown and changed I have changed careers. I’ve changed jobs; no career. Though I am leaning toward writing, now. More as a public service, though. quote: but a large amount of people.. even people who go and get a higher education flounder and have no idea even where to start. There has to be something we can do about that... It can only be deal with on an individual basis. quote: This would be an ideal situation for most.. however you would have to retrain all of human nature from people. Humans are inately nasty, vile, selfish, greedy little bastards. One thing that will surely keep us from reaching our goal; to treat everyone as if they are all the same. There are some who lack empathy, it is a somewhat primal personality, and those would need to be respected for what they are, and dealt with responsibly. ("Dealt with", meaning, "acted toward") However, I believe most are condition to be that way. Much like children; when treated like animals, people will often act like animals. quote: The human race rises to great heights of wonderous deeds for thier fellow man, on occasion but the depths of the greed, avarice, senseless hatred makes the world you envision impossible. Doubt and fear, are what make my ideas impossible. quote: However if you wanna start with those OPEC bastards.... I am sure we can round up some Goombahs.... Work with me, Gwyn. [:D] We must separate the people from the concept; because it takes different techniques, to deal with either. k p.s. I have no idea what a Goombah is. [&:]

Gwynvyd -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 1:19:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster Well, if you call making 2000 consecutive left turns a "sport", I fear you are lost to the Dark Side. [8D] At least they're "lefts"... chucklesnorts too cute. Gwyn

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