RE: The sting of poverty

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kittinSol -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 8:26:40 AM)
Did you deliberately ignore the rest of the post, and isolated one comment about corporate lobbies, to make me sound like Robespierre? These ad hominem attacks may satisfy you on a personal level, but they mean little in the context of what has been, so far, a very civilised discussion.

cjan -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 8:42:59 AM)
R-T, Some of the points you make re the European societies are exagerations but others are quite true, I don't say that those systems are perfect, no human society is. Nevertheless, I find that their sytems generally work better than the current U.S. system does to provide a high quality of life for a greater proportion of their citizens.

Real_Trouble -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 8:50:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cjan R-T, Some of the points you make re the European societies are exagerations but others are quite true, I don't say that those systems are perfect, no human society is. Nevertheless, I find that their sytems generally work better than the current U.S. system does to provide a high quality of life for a greater proportion of their citizens. To a point, I think you are right; the problem is that they currently benefit hugely from the US system. If we adopted their system, it would dramatically lower the standard of living everywhere; the US remains the main engine of innovation and economic growth for the world in many ways. This is largely because our intellectual property laws, tax laws, and educational system tend to reward "high end" outcomes more than other countries; that is to say that if I develop a new drug, a new and more efficient way to extract oil from the ground, or go to medical school, I get a higher payoff here than elsewhere. Because of this, we have a leading edge that drives our society. They just use our products for many things as a result. If the US demolished that innovation and success incentive, I think you would find that Europe's quality of life would lower dramatically. But likewise, a lot of what we hear about Europe in the US is very off-base. I have many European friends (I work in a truly global industry), and many of them do provide me with inside stories on their countries that can be hard to find if you are not a native. I can say, confidently, that the US is the country I would most want to live in. If I had to pick another, it would be the UK, which is probably the closest to us. Third would be Germany. So as you can see, it's not as though I think the European systems are terrible (and, in fact, there are some aspects we should take - such as a more parlimentary style of government to better express a plurality of moderate views, as well as the idea that tax systems should place a proportional burden without many loopholes on various groups, though I believe in a lower overall level of taxes because governments are wildly inefficient), but I think we can do better. The biggest issue we have in the US, also, that does not plague these countries is very large levels of poor immigrants. If you gave Germany or France a proportional level of immigration to the US at the same socioeconomic levels, their demographics would look much less favorable. They are much more restrictive regarding immigration, overall.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 8:51:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cjan The reality of a large class of people in the U.S. termed the "working poor" should give evreyone pause to consider the causes of such a situation in ,as kitt says, the "richest nation in the world" ( Actually, the U.S. is currently the world's largest debtor nation). As an example of how this situation can be remedied, we need look only to other nations who have succesfully done so. I know, this will inflame those who wish to accumulate great wealth, but, it is the price a just society pays . Look to the Scandinavian coutries. Look to France and Germany and a few others. By "look" I mean do some research and, if possible, physically go there and experience the differences. Yes, the countries I speak of tax citizens at the rate of about 50%. However, their citizens have universal health care, free education, to any level, for everyone who wants it and can pass the exams, benefits such as, subsidized rent /mortgage payments to new single mothers, free trade schools, loans to entrepeneurs and small business startups, etc. You won't find many homeless or starving people there. Nor old folks who have to chose between eating and buying life sustaining medications. You won't find much crime there either, certainly not on the scale we have it in the U.S. In short, you won't find many McMansions to house the "rich", nor will you find a poor class. Yes, for the hair splitters, you will find some of each, but certainly, not on the scale we have in the U.S. . What you will find, instead is a large, stable,secure middle class. I'd gladly pay 50% of my income in taxes to live in such a society. ( And, please, don't tell me to move there. I have and I have my reasons for living in the U.S. for now ). But, I (we) should pay those taxes with the clear understanding between government and the tax payers that that $$ will be spent for domestic programs rather than on foreign military adventures. It can be done. It's been done. It's being done. We need only the will and the energy and committment to bring it to pass in this great country. I've been to Germany thrice, the last time in 2003 for 5 weeks. I rented a flat in Feldkirchen, just east of Munich, and did a lot of in-depth study (my "landlady", Bettina, worked for Barmer, one of the largest health insurers in DE. There was another guy, Matthias, who was there 3 days a week, returning to Stuttgart on the weekends. He was fighting his Federal tax bill, so I learned a bit about the tax structure as well). The chart I linked to shows that the effective average income (labor) tax rate was 38.7% in 2005. Consumption (sales, VAT) taxes were 18.1%. I don't know about property taxes in DE; I know mine are approx. 0.8% of the value. http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/PGP_PRD_CAT_PREREL/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2007/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2007_MONTH_06/2-26062007-EN-AP.PDF I suspect that, if one adds up all the US taxes (including local, state, gasoline, sales, transfer taxes, FICA, ad valorem, phone & cable taxes/fees, utility taxes, et cetera) that the tax burdens between the US and Germany would be fairly close. The difference is, the Germans get something for their taxes. They get good health care, education, public transport, 5-6 weeks holiday/year, 35 hour work weeks, state-of-the-art infrastructure, excellent leisure facilities and parks, and so on. Much of the tax money in the US is diverted to keeping the US on a war footing, where it has been since 1945. The Cold War was completely manufactured by McNamara, McGeorge Bundy, and the other hawks. Ike came right out and said that those bastards (Mil-Industrial complex) would steal everything in sight if they weren't kept under the microscope. And look what the US ended up with: the Bushzis are the biggest gang of thieves since Mao. I think of all the money that has been pissed away on foreign adventures which could have gone to neighborhood clinics, nutrition education, job training, public transport, free secondary education, medical research, agricultural research, alt.energy research, and the like, and my blood just boils at the magnitude of the crimes, and the willing complicity of the right (predominantly) in the raiding of the treasury because the Nascar Neocons thought (and still think) they'll hit the theft jackpot somehow.

kittinSol -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 8:52:31 AM)
Collarme's frog specialist here [sm=wave.gif] . If in doubt, ask.

popeye1250 -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 8:54:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Major corporate taxation rethink : the current loopholes allow for businesses to shirt off their tax burden. A simple idea, below: quote: Under [this] proposal, the U.S. tax base for multinational corporations would be calculated based on a fraction of their worldwide income. This fraction would simply be the share of their worldwide sales that are destined for customers in the United States. This system is similar to the current method that U.S. states use to allocate national income. The state system arose due to the widespread belief that it was impractical to account separately for what income is earned in each state when states are highly integrated economically. Similarly, in an increasingly global world economy, it is difficult to assign profits to individual countries, and attempts to do so are fraught with opportunities for tax avoidance. Under our proposed formulary apportionment system, firms would no longer have an artificial tax incentive to shift income to low-tax locations. This would help protect the U.S. tax base while reducing the distortionary features of the current tax system. In addition, the complexity and administrative burden of the system would be reduced. The proposed system would be both better suited to an integrated world economy and more compatible with the tax policy goals of efficiency, equity, and simplicity. Pay decent salaries, a fair wage for a fair amount of work; increase taxation on luxury consumer goods (cars, toys, electronic devices, etcaetera); no income tax on low income levels (to be decided); reduce the military budget; close all tax loopholes, the ones that allow hugely wealthy people to literally evade tax duties on large profits. STOP relying on charities to do the work of government! Institutional charity is a bad thing! Throwing ideas into the pot here, I'm not an economist, but there are so many actions that could be taken to reduce the poverty level... We all know why these things aren't being done: corporate power is lobbying Washington to implement policies that are in its favour. Democracy is a sham, we're being governed by private enterprise. Fuck them! Kill the lobbies. KittinSol, for once I agree with you. Our govt. keeps telling us that we need cheap products, I really don't think it's their job to be doing that! I for one don't need or want "cheap (er) products." And if the govt. is so "concerned" about the consumer then why aren't they saying anything about the consumer's falling incomes? You hit on an important point, the influence of lobbyists (against) the interests of Americans in Washington. The only "lobbyists" that there should be are the American People. We have a seperation of church and state, we need to have a seperation of business and state.

Mercnbeth -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 8:54:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Did you deliberately ignore the rest of the post, and isolated one comment about corporate lobbies, to make me sound like Robespierre? These ad hominem attacks may satisfy you on a personal level, but they mean little in the context of what has been, so far, a very civilised discussion. It wasn't an "attack" it was a quote - YOURS. Any "sound like" stands on its own merit. Why not clarify when its okay in your opinion to "kill" people, as part of this "civilized discussion"? I didn't "ignore" anything and only held up a mirror - sorry you don't like the vision it reflects.

charmdpetKeira -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 8:54:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble I don't disagree; I dislike virtually all governments. But let me ask you this: point at one that is, on average, less corrupt, more just, and more effective than ours? If having a government does not reach our stated goal, I am unsure why I should be trying to find one that is better then the one we have. quote: This is not to champion our government (it's terrible, but big shock, it's a government), but rather to say that at least we don't live in Zimbabwe. When I told my mother, a while back, that our government does not fit the definition of a democracy, she said, “move to Cuba”. double take Because I point out something isn’t what I was told it is, I should move to where it is worse? What kind of logic is that? Perhaps I should have apologized for making her open her eyes. quote: Then again, as governments are composed of people, I do not believe it is possible to have a "good" one because you cannot align the incentives or break down the factional behavior that emerges. We need to find the common ground. Until then, nothing we do will work toward what we say we want; “liberty and justice for ALL”. It is my personal belief that we are running out of time. If we stay on this path, in just a few years time, none of this will matter. k

kittinSol -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 9:06:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth It wasn't an "attack" it was a quote - YOURS. Any "sound like" stands on its own merit. Why not clarify when its okay in your opinion to "kill" people, as part of this "civilized discussion"? I didn't "ignore" anything and only held up a mirror - sorry you don't like the vision it reflects. If I say "kill the lobbies", I'm not advocating the murder of individuals, but the destruction of an institution. The rest of my post was full of suggestions; others picked up on them. You chose not to. You're either obtuse, or looking for a petty argument. Sorry: not interested. Au revoir.

cjan -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 9:06:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Collarme's frog specialist here [image]http://www.collarchat.com/upfiles/smiley/wave.gif[/image] . If in doubt, ask. I just adore frogs' legs. Yum !

Gwynvyd -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 9:24:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lalbobbilynn i grew up with everything and anything money could buy. For varying reasons i thumbed my nose to it all and further insulted my very self by turning down Princeton, the US AirForce, and Butler Univ. i choose instead to be a stay at home mother who volunteered at Rest Homes, the Women's shelter, as a Guardian Ad Litem, and just for shits and giggles managed an animal shelter. Some of my dearest friends are uber rich; a few others have not graduated high school and live in the same trailer they grew up in. Last April i loaded my van with a smidge of what i had amassed in the prior 17yrs with my ex, (mostly books, & UM's too!), triple checked the $400 in my pocket, and double saluted our five bedroom/three bath, two car garage. Your numbers aside .... they are simply numbers to me. i have been well off, and i have been one breath away from being homeless. In my limited experience my poor friends lack a long term plan, my well off friends have always had some notion of a plan. Not one group of my friends work harder; one group merely works smarter. b.~ just smiles Very few people have the courage it takes to walk away from family and that monthly stipend. Half of my friends never understood how I could flip off the family and walk away... the other half wish they could be adopted by my family in my stead.. or simply do not know about it at all. ( I don't talk about the yahoo's up North much ) But I think what you said is correct... Some have a plan, and some do not. In some cases of my friends if they did not have that leg up of the circumstance of thier birth.. and who's family they belonged to... they would be in a trailer drinking beer and eating frozen pizzas. Some of my poor friends have been very motivated and gone on to do great things but it was a hell of a lot harder. I certainly do not think wealth redistribution is the answer. Education, job training and apprencticeships early on would go a long way in helping with our issues of hopelessness. Not knowing what to do after school ( or even university Ed. ) is just silly for us. Gwyn

Gwynvyd -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 9:36:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle quote: In my limited experience my poor friends lack a long term plan, my well off friends have always had some notion of a plan. Not one group of my friends work harder; one group merely works smarter. and in my limited experience, poor people don't have the freedom to make a long-term plan; if they did, perhaps all the preaching about "teach a man to build a fire" might actually be useful. quote: Annabelle: as you will probably know by now I have peeked at your profile and I am totally confused as to why an attractive lady like yourself would choose to hide under such self denying clothes. If I wish to admire your youthful sensuality, is that soooooo bad ? Not a very original point I admit and also a thread hijack, but I dont care. I just wanted to say it thassal. seeks, surely you remember lecturing me on this back in one of my first posts here about my interest in islam? i think it was you who was shocked that i would ever want to cover and in disbelief that being sexually harrassed on a daily basis could really be that bad. ;) forgive me if i'm misattributing...i have no mind. i do remember you posting in the thread, though, at least. anyway, covering has been really freeing and self-affirming for me, both religiously and personally, and i'm sure you can find someone around here who saved all my old nekkid photos that used to be up on my profile to look at if you ever get curious. [sm=angel.gif] Very cool... that is what I thought when I saw the small pict to the side of your posts. smiles Sorry I missed the orig. thread on it now. Gwyn, who is doing a reading from "Muslim Child" by Rukhsana Khan durring the childrens shared time at church in a couple of weeks.

Gwynvyd -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 9:45:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster and the willing complicity of the right (predominantly) in the raiding of the treasury because the Nascar Neocons thought (and still think) they'll hit the theft jackpot somehow. I was ok until you bashed Nascar.... Now I am crying foul... Not on my watch buddy. chuckles Gwyn, Nascar junky like you would not believe. My boy Smoke needs to get back into a damn Chevy... thats all I gotta say about it. mumbles under her breath

charmdpetKeira -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 9:46:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd Not knowing what to do after school ( or even university Ed. ) is just silly for us. Towards fully understanding the situation. There are some, who take a very long time to figure out what we want to be when we grow-up. I imagine, some never do. In my specific case, I believe it comes from a lack of personal desire. (Not to be confused with a lack of passion.) k

Real_Trouble -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 9:49:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Collarme's frog specialist here [sm=wave.gif] . If in doubt, ask. I work with a few recovering frogs myself. Ahem. And to Keira - my point is not that our government is perfect; nor would I advocate anyone move to Cuba! My point is that we shouldn't make compartmentalized comparisons and then claim our government is worse in a blanket sense. Do we do a better job than Germany of providing free, quality education opportunities to young children? No. I would assert that we do not. Does this mean our government as a whole is worse than that of Germany? No, it does not. What I am objecting to is the cherry picking of specific qualities that lead to generalized quality statements. On a "take it all or leave it all" basis, I would prefer the US. I do agree there are things we can (and should) do better, but let's not overstate the case as to how bad things are, either. Likewise, I'm not an advocate of no government either. I feel the same way about democracy that I do about capitalism, which is to say it's the worst option out there, except for all the others. Edit - To your last point, I believe liberty and justice for all is impossible. This is like saying everyone should be rich; by definition, we can't all be rich, because then we'd all be average! There are too many conflicting interests and differing views of what liberty and justice are for everyone to have it. If I believe justice is killing everyone with a screen name Keira, and you believe justice is killing everyone with the screen name Real_Trouble, we're obviously at an impasse. That's an extreme example, but when you consider mutually exclusive religious and social beliefs, as well as how to make a heirarchy of what rights matter when they conflict, the problem gets ugly fast. I think we have a decent compromise right now. Likewise, people have bene saying things are going to hell and everything will fall apart since ancient Greece (or earlier, but that's the earliest I have read personally), so I tend to take it all with a grain of salt.

meatcleaver -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 9:55:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol It would seem to prove that it's very difficult to get out of the poverty trap, however much do-gooders try to help you with 'poverty initiatives' and other 'charitable' actions. So, what's the solution? Redistribution of wealth. I have my flame retardant suit on :-) . Yep, redistribution. The only intelligent way for the poor to get out of poverty is to demand redistribution and if it doesn't happen, take the law into their own hands, then those people with something to lose will want to compromise and redistribute at least some of their wealth and keep some. It is how we have got to where we are today. If there had been no violence or threat of violence the aristocracy and the ruling classes would still consider their serfs as lazy retards who can do no better than work on their land. Today we have the capitalists and many people who should know better saying the poor are poor because they refuse to work. If I was poor and was offered a minimum wage to work in a shit job with no prospects I would say no thank you, hand me a molatov cocktail. We have poor because the economic system we have requires poor people, it is the thought that you too can be as poor too that makes many people get up in the morning and waste most of their life doings something they hate doing. Of course, the system allows a couple of people to buck the system, that way they have someone to point to and say, see, you can be successful, they did it. Of course, they never mention that if everyone became successful middleclass professionals there would be no one to shovel shit for a minimum wage so we shouldn't believe the shit capitalists tell us.

Mercnbeth -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 10:06:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth It wasn't an "attack" it was a quote - YOURS. Any "sound like" stands on its own merit. Why not clarify when its okay in your opinion to "kill" people, as part of this "civilized discussion"? I didn't "ignore" anything and only held up a mirror - sorry you don't like the vision it reflects. If I say "kill the lobbies", I'm not advocating the murder of individuals, but the destruction of an institution. The rest of my post was full of suggestions; others picked up on them. You chose not to. You're either obtuse, or looking for a petty argument. Sorry: not interested. Au revoir. Of course run away. Typical. Senator Clinton givers her "bullets over Bosnia" speech which she now declares misspoken. Challenging her on the facts is responded to by not considering the facts but instead calling any person who points them out sexist. As if the fact that she is a female cuckold for her husband changes the fact that she lied. Senator McCain says that amnesty for the illegals would be a good thing. Those opposed to him or his amnesty program aren't challenged on the overriding benefits these workers give to corporate America at the expense of US labor and US unions. Instead, there are accusations of fascist style patriotism and exclusion. As if the fact that his campaign is funded by the direct beneficiaries of amnesty makes no difference. Senator Obama identifies proudly his continuing membership to a church who's pastor believes the attack on NYC was the "chickens coming home to roost". Who sits there identifying with a (from the church website) Black centric church, with Afro centric focus. Yet any equitable comparison to a David Duke is considered not on its merit but considered a racist attack. As if Senator Obama's "typical white person" reference to his own grandmother isn't a bigoted and racist remark. The theme is basic. When the facts can't be disputed change the name of 'fact' to 'attack'. When it's impossible to debate on the merit, try to instigate emotions, starting with a "fuck off" reference or two hoping that the focus on facts will just go away. Good old Hippiekinster as a response to the facts regarding who pays taxes submits the US tax code as a reference! How funny is that! Want to know why he couldn't find anything to support the position that the "poor" pay more? It doesn't exist. I'm pretty confident that it doesn't because to find the facts I found, I searched trying to find out if the statement was true. But were there any fact to support the ridiculous contention that the top 2% wage earners make 95% of the money and pay virtually none of the taxes-I'd have posted it similarly, said; "wow - I didn't know that!" and thank the person who educated me that my understanding and belief was wrong. I know, I know, that's not a concept you can identify. quote: there are so many actions that could be taken to reduce the poverty level... Yes there is, the first step is to stop blaming other people for you own failure or rely on them to assist you, or believe you are entitled to anything. The constitution says you have a right to PURSUE happiness. Actual happiness comes from the effort of individual's successful pursuit using the resources provided by the government and in spite of the roadblocks the government places on that pursuit. Why is there resentment to pay more taxes to support anti-poverty programs? History. Putting it in practical context; suppose you wanted to fill in the Grand Canyon. You think its a good thing for whatever reason and contribute to the effort with money and every so often pick up a shovel and help fill it. You've done it for years. You have kids and grandkids also participating in contributing dirt and effort. After all this time, the hole looks just as big, and as a matter of fact, you begin to notice that any gain on the big hole is creating quite a few other holes growing getting bigger and deeper by the day. Meanwhile, the political social engineers living far removed as to not get dirty or have to breath in the dust, tell you not to notice. They say we just need more dirt and for people to contribute more. That aptly describes the last 50 years of the 'war on poverty'. By the way, those candidates would be at the top of the list of "rich people" who's doom you seek. Above them would be people like Senator Edwards, Senator Kennedy, Speaker Pelosi and many more of those standard-bearers of liberal doctrine. The closest they come to interacting with the 'poor' between reelection campaigns is hiring them to do work on their estates. I take that back - that's probably done by some lackey staff member.

Gwynvyd -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 10:08:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble I must say, all the animosity in this thread makes me understand things like gated communities a little bit better. Imagine the following scenario: You are a multi-millionaire. You made it through college (and not with some bullshit degree like art appreciation, either), and then through law school, medical school, or business school, taking on a ton of debt as you did. You came from a middle class or lower family. You've worked your ass off for decades, putting in 100 hour weeks when people constantly decry having to work more than 40 to "make a living wage" so that you can get where you are today. You paid for this all yourself at the start. Now, people want to take your money away and give it to those who had kids when they were young, didn't make the sacrifices you did to go to college, haven't worked as hard, and don't have as much talent. I can understand why people are so adversarial about welfare or assisting the poor; now, I think this is something of a red herring, as the bottom line is that there are many people who are poor not through their own doing, but through circumstances beyond their control. I think the real issue here is simple - we need better education, very early in life, about how to make strong life choices, how to pursue opportunity, and legitimate paths to economic prosperity. In other words, provide strong role models and meaningful life skills in our schools, and the earlier, the better. Then, if people fuck up when they knew better, that's their problem. As an aside, the reason I am so adversarial about welfare is that we do it so poorly it's almost laughable. I can throw money off a bridge and into the ocean to be lost forever far more efficiently than the government, so if I wanted to do that, I'd be doing it on my own already! I'm always against spending money on shit that doesn't work. To the people speaking about the wage and cost of living debate, I have a few key points: - The minimum wage should be indexed to inflation or deflation. Basically, it should track a measure of consumer cost. - The real problem is not low wages, it is high prices; this is driven by debt and a credit expansion, leading to artificial demand and higher prices, and that's now coming back to bite us in the ass. This issue may take care of itself in a few years, at least to a point. - Minimum wages do not always work the way you expect; if you raise it, you may just encourage a company to cut jobs or move production to a country where labor is cheaper. Basically, it sucks to be an unskilled worker in a highly skilled economy. There's just no real way around that. My advice is "don't be unskilled, or move". To the advocacy of a tax system for multi-national corporations: Do you mean a flat tax on US-only revenue for them, or a flat tax on all global revenue? If you advocate a flat tax on global revenue, what you are doing is disincentivizing large corporations in the rest of the world to come to the US, because for a sliver of profit, they pay a huge amount of tax. This will have the net effect of raising prices and lowering quality for Americans, which I am not for; as an example, many car manufacturers would pull out of our market tomorrow, which would drive up prices on American cars (which are of inferior quality) and lower consumer choice. The irony here being that most "American" cars are now built from parts that come from outside of America, as well, so even if you are a buy American type (which I don't understand either, given the interconnectedness of all economies today), you lose. Lastly: quote: When you really understand how government works, that's the part that is hard to believe. We know people are wealthy because they were favored in the same way the wealthy and various corporations are favored today. And then there is inherited wealth too. Standing on the long-term benefits bestowed by government and inherited wealth doesn't seem very noble to me. I realize there is the occasional self-made man too, and while I do respect that luck is also a factor and a big one. Yet our government is not very corrupt at all compared to most others! Just do the things that are favored. Thankfully we are relatively transparent in our dealings, and it is easy to see which way the wind is blowing; hoping for some egalitarian world where humans all play fair is about as sensible as hoping everyone will be made out of gold tomorrow. It's not going to happen! Human nature prevents it. Perhaps I am cynical, but I prefer to learn how to play the game that exists well, rather than wish for another game that will never come about. We have a coffee and chat group every Sunday morning before Church. This past morning it was on the Rockefellers, The Wealthy and American Greed. I belong to a UU church. Oh person after person demonised the rich, and the Govt. From everything from thier own credit card debt to thier sub prime mortgages for the extra 3 houses they wanted to be bailed out of. We are generaly not a violent lot.. but when the conversation got turned over to me to speak I asked about Personal responsibility, and knowing when to say no to those credit card offers, spending the money you know you dont have on shit you dont need... and homes you can not afford. As a society we lack personal responsibility. Corporations lack industrial responsibility. The Govt bails them out when thier CEOs embezzel millions of dollars. Go after the bloody CEOs. People do not read the fine print, or get a real estate attny if they do not know legal jargon... They sign things they do not understand then cry about. The ballon payment they were told would be due in 2 years actualy in fact came due in 2 years. This huge sense of me me me intitlement has dumbed us down, made us less aware of how to deal with our finances, and we expect when bad things happen the govt will bail us out. The rich are not to blame for the dumbing down or the feeling of entitlement of the Nation... We all are. Not teaching our children fiscal responsibilty. Not being taught or teaching them the value of a dollar.. and how to save. That is our and our parents fault. Not teaching work ethic... being the childs "buddy" instead of parent and giving them life lessons. Not showing them the value of an education. Not being a hands on parent. Our collective lazieness has brought us to this point. Fucking Dr. Spock. (in a nut shell) Of course there are some rich greedy bastards out there who could be doing more... but there are also some who do wonderful things in thier communities for many causes.. and not only support them finacialy but also work.. really work for those causes. My mother ( God rest her soul) always said "If you are taking up space on this planet, then you need to be doing something constructive and helping people in some way.. otherwise you are just taking up space someone worthy could be using." It never mattered how our fourtunes rose or fell ( and there were a lot of ups and down as we were the family's black sheeps.. ) she made sure we always were doing something to help others... even if we needed that help ourself. Gwyn

popeye1250 -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 10:12:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd quote: ORIGINAL: lalbobbilynn i grew up with everything and anything money could buy. For varying reasons i thumbed my nose to it all and further insulted my very self by turning down Princeton, the US AirForce, and Butler Univ. i choose instead to be a stay at home mother who volunteered at Rest Homes, the Women's shelter, as a Guardian Ad Litem, and just for shits and giggles managed an animal shelter. Some of my dearest friends are uber rich; a few others have not graduated high school and live in the same trailer they grew up in. Last April i loaded my van with a smidge of what i had amassed in the prior 17yrs with my ex, (mostly books, & UM's too!), triple checked the $400 in my pocket, and double saluted our five bedroom/three bath, two car garage. Your numbers aside .... they are simply numbers to me. i have been well off, and i have been one breath away from being homeless. In my limited experience my poor friends lack a long term plan, my well off friends have always had some notion of a plan. Not one group of my friends work harder; one group merely works smarter. b.~ just smiles Very few people have the courage it takes to walk away from family and that monthly stipend. Half of my friends never understood how I could flip off the family and walk away... the other half wish they could be adopted by my family in my stead.. or simply do not know about it at all. ( I don't talk about the yahoo's up North much ) But I think what you said is correct... Some have a plan, and some do not. In some cases of my friends if they did not have that leg up of the circumstance of thier birth.. and who's family they belonged to... they would be in a trailer drinking beer and eating frozen pizzas. Some of my poor friends have been very motivated and gone on to do great things but it was a hell of a lot harder. I certainly do not think wealth redistribution is the answer. Education, job training and apprencticeships early on would go a long way in helping with our issues of hopelessness. Not knowing what to do after school ( or even university Ed. ) is just silly for us. Gwyn I know a lady who lives on Beacon Hill in Boston and works at the state house in an executive job. She lives in a nice apartment building about 4-6 blocks from Louisburg Square where Sen. Kerry has a million(s?) dollar townhouse where he had the hydrant moved from in front of his residence. She said that her building is loaded with "trust fund babies" from very wealthy families. They've never worked a day in their lives and she told me that she sees them comming into the building at night when she's returning from work stinking drunk, the doorman helping them up to their apartments. She said that most if not all have had the benefit of higher education and all types of advantages but they just don't seem to want to participate in society. Sad really.

Real_Trouble -> RE: The sting of poverty (4/14/2008 10:14:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Yep, redistribution. The only intelligent way for the poor to get out of poverty is to demand redistribution and if it doesn't happen, take the law into their own hands, then those people with something to lose will want to compromise and redistribute at least some of their wealth and keep some. It is how we have got to where we are today. If there had been no violence or threat of violence the aristocracy and the ruling classes would still consider their serfs as lazy retards who can do no better than work on their land. Today we have the capitalists and many people who should know better saying the poor are poor because they refuse to work. If I was poor and was offered a minimum wage to work in a shit job with no prospects I would say no thank you, hand me a molatov cocktail. We have poor because the economic system we have requires poor people, it is the thought that you too can be as poor too that makes many people get up in the morning and waste most of their life doings something they hate doing. Of course, the system allows a couple of people to buck the system, that way they have someone to point to and say, see, you can be successful, they did it. Of course, they never mention that if everyone became successful middleclass professionals there would be no one to shovel shit for a minimum wage so we shouldn't believe the shit capitalists tell us. There is a dramatic difference between redistributing hereditary wealth (which I am for) and earned wealth (which I am against). If I did nothing more than inherit a few hundred million dollars, say (to put things on par with past aristocracy), then I agree, locking that wealth up solely through heredity is not a good manuever. I am for even more aggressive estate taxes than we currently have, in fact, to prevent this very situation from occurring. However, if someone develops cold fusion, and then all the profits are taken from them and redistributed to the rest of the United States, I am going to be extremely displeased! That person did the work, why should they not have the reward? Sure, their kids don't deserve to be fantastically wealthy just by being lucky enough to be that person's kids, but people should be rewarded for their just contributions. As to the poor? Yes, there should be poor people. I'm sorry if not everyone likes that, but to quote a professor I once had, "not everyone can be a rocket scientist". Not all humans are equal; some people contribute more, and some people contribute less. The bottom line that if someone is poor, uneducated, and has made foolish life decisions (such as having multiple kids early, digging into major debt through their own spending, etc) despite being offered the same opportunity as everyone else, that's their own problem. The rest of the world is not here to subsidize idiociy. Go to school, or learn a trade skill. Develop something other than manual labor, make responsible financial decisions, don't commit crimes, etc. It is possible, and we should do a better job of making it possible, but there are those who will fail even when handed everything on a silver platter. I know a few. My final point is this, though: all systems that have tried to equalize income distribution so far have failed, and often spectacularly. They consistently produce major corruption, lack of incentives, lack of progress, and equality for many... meaning that everyone is equally poor and destitute.

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