RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety

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HentaiGamerKitty -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/12/2005 6:07:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut quote: ORIGINAL: HentaiGamerKitty I don't think anyone was implying that neutering the dog would have saved its life. I'm terribly sorry for her loss, but just couldn't walk on by without commenting on her poor judgement skills. The fact that the dog died is horrible and has nothing to do with the fact that she chose to breed it. However, I make it a personal point to preach the word about responsible breeding at every opportunity. And apparently in your "oh so wise" opinion, working with a THIRD GENERATION breeder of poodles is irresponsible. All I can say to that is that your "prize winning" dog is lucky you did sell him off, because you obviously don't have the brains God gave an amoeba and you aren't a loving pet owner either. A loving pet owner would have chosen to just love their animal without breeding it if they felt that they weren't "up to the task". You saw your dog as nothing more than a money maker. What a great human being that makes you. See, because in MY opinion, those of you who have animals only for the sake of showing or breeding don't deserve to own pets at all. You obviously mad the money you could off of your dog and then because you didn't have the ability to do anything else, you sold him off like yesterday's fad. How you think that makes you responsible, a good pet owner, or even someone who has the right to speak about my "judgment skills" is laughable. What money? Who makes money showing dogs? I paid a ton of money for him, fed him the best food, gave him the best vet care, paid his outrageous entry fees, and never recieved one red penny in return. Dog shows that I went to never paid cash prizes (only ribbons.) I didn't actually sell him either. I said that, but the long story is that I actually gave him away in return for the rights to a pet quality puppy at a later date (which I've not accepted yet and may never ask for). I had originally planned on keeping him, but due to a new job, I didn't have time to show both him and the horses anymore. He was far too nice a dog to sit in the backyard and stare at the fence. He was a beautiful animal and he DESERVED to be in the show ring. He LOVED showing. Any responsible breeder/shower will tell you that we NEVER do it for the money. There is no money to be made. I showed him as long as I could and then gave him away to another home because I knew I didn't have time to give his show career the effort it deserved. I'm very, very curious where you got the idea that you make money at dog shows. I've never recieved anything but ribbons and occasional trophies. If you know of a show giving cash prizes, please point me that direction. I've never attended one. I'll agree to disagree with you (and I won't insult your intelligence, because I'm a better person than that.)

HentaiGamerKitty -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/12/2005 6:14:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2 quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut You saw your dog as nothing more than a money maker. What a great human being that makes you. For breeders, that's what dogs are, though perhaps not solely, and I don't see anything wrong with giving a dog away to good owners if you know you don't want it. Animals are for whatever we choose them to be for. While we can make distinctions over proper and improper use, I don't think giving a dog away to good owners, for WHATEVER reason, could be considered misuse or bad. But I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, and I know some who are who believe animals are different. I respect their views and allow them to live their lives as they choose. I have pets, I love them dearly. But if I decided I no longer wanted a pet, I think giving it away to a good owner would be the best thing to do. I think it's way off the mark to say I'm a bad pet owner or bad person because I don't value animals the same way you do, when I still treat them very well. quote: per and improper use, I don't think giving a dog away to good owners, for WHATEVER reason, could be considered m I agree with most of what you say, except the part about breeders being in it for the money. Most breeders are hard pressed to break even. All the show breeders I know work other jobs and do the showing as a hobby. They work that other job to FINANCE their showing. You don't make much money breeding 3 litters a year, lol. And of course in my case, I was never a breeder. Just a shower. So all I did was PAY money :) It's similiar to my situation with the horses. My family works full time jobs so they can afford to spend $60k a horse trailer, $40k on a truck, $30k on a barn, $40k on a indoor arena, god-knows-how much on the horses themselves, thousands of dollars in entry fees...all that for the love of showing (because all you win is ribbons!)

perverseangelic -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/12/2005 9:46:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HentaiGamerKitty I agree with most of what you say, except the part about breeders being in it for the money. Most breeders are hard pressed to break even. All the show breeders I know work other jobs and do the showing as a hobby. They work that other job to FINANCE their showing. You don't make much money breeding 3 litters a year, lol. agreed. I -do- know several people who breed dogs, and none have ever made a profit at it. Most of the responsible breeders I know pretty much state at the outset that if you're doing all the stuff you need to do to have healthy puppies you're losing money when you breed, rather than making it. And wow. Why is it that age -always- becomes the measure of whether or not one should listen to someone else. I knowt his one wasn't dirrected at me, but damn. FYI. Yup. My father paid my university tuition. That's all. My parents made the commitment to me when I was young that they would make sure I could go to any school I could get into, and I'm greatful for that. Perhaps Thaly was lucky enough to have this as well. I'm not entirely sure how the fact that we were blessed enough to have parents willing to pay my tuition (note: tuition. There are lot o' other bills. I did my time working two jobs and moonlighting for a friend) devalues everything we have to say about bugeting and general responsiblity. I've been working really hard -not- to harshly criticize the OP. I can definatly sympathize. I think that expressing a bit of disagreement and difficulty with the situation, in polite terms, is -not- a bad thing. Nor does it mean I feel -less- for her. She lost a pet. THat alone is horrible. Voicing some of my personal beliefs about the situation surrounding the loss doesn't lessen the fact that I'm sorry she lost her pet. Lay off the personal insults.

Thaily -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/12/2005 10:27:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut Thaily, I'm sure in your 4 whole years as an adult (how much of that was spent with mommy and daddy supporting you at university), you have no concept that sometimes things happen and financial trouble occurs unexpectedly. I guess by your standards, my sudden financial problems indicate I should also put my son up for adoption. I think I will stick with taking advice from people who have a clue, which does not include you. Aaah, the age-ticket. Actually I've been living on my own and supporting myself since I was 19, and I have owned and still own a number of pets who have never gone without, unlike the male dog that died, because YOU couldn't afford vet care despite any financial problems. How ironic is that? Maybe you should put your son up for adoption, if you can't even take proper care of a dog. I mean, they say that being a mother is the hardest job in the world, so it should only make sense that someone should be able to fire you. I've studied animal caretaking and did lots of volunteerwork, including with a pound, so I know exactly what I'm talking about, I'm just not afraid to call a duck a duck.

FLButtSlut -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/12/2005 10:06:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thaily quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut Thaily, I'm sure in your 4 whole years as an adult (how much of that was spent with mommy and daddy supporting you at university), you have no concept that sometimes things happen and financial trouble occurs unexpectedly. I guess by your standards, my sudden financial problems indicate I should also put my son up for adoption. I think I will stick with taking advice from people who have a clue, which does not include you. Aaah, the age-ticket. Actually I've been living on my own and supporting myself since I was 19, and I have owned and still own a number of pets who have never gone without, unlike the male dog that died, because YOU couldn't afford vet care despite any financial problems. How ironic is that? Maybe you should put your son up for adoption, if you can't even take proper care of a dog. I mean, they say that being a mother is the hardest job in the world, so it should only make sense that someone should be able to fire you. I've studied animal caretaking and did lots of volunteerwork, including with a pound, so I know exactly what I'm talking about, I'm just not afraid to call a duck a duck. What you are is an ignorant child who has not one clue about the realities of life. Fire me as a parent? If every parent who was ever downsized or suffered financial hardship was "fired" as a parent, most children would be orphans. Again, since you obviously are too ignorant to pay attention, my dog HAD gone to the vet. With all of your "volunteer" work and studying "animal caretaking" (is that akin to underwater basketweaving?) I guess that every animal you have ever seen ill had something that was treatable or exhibited symptoms very early that would warrant treatment. If that is the case, then you obviously have zero experience. I once lost a beautiful Newfoundland mix to hemacratic anemia. She was gone in one day, there was nothing that could be done. I had a friend who lost a hybrid to the same thing and she spent several thousand dollars treating the animal, including the removal of the pancreas and numerous other treatments, and still the dog died. Supporting yourself for a big 3 years, what an absolutely great accomplishment. I support myself, my son, my pets and until just a few years ago, also supported my ill mother. My son is 12 years old. Healthy, happy, well adjusted and WELL MANNERED. Seems to me that someone should have fired YOUR parents because you never learned any manners at all. Call a duck a duck, fine. Ignorance abounds around here, you just decided to jump into the fray. Glad to see that among your other qualities, "leadership" is among them as well as you follow all of the other fools who think that their minimal experience at life has taught them all they need to know. On the other hand, I know, and the people who actually know me are aware of who I am as well as the fact that nothing could be done. But I will tell you this much....if it were not on this board, my son would have quite a few choice words for you, and I'm sure that many of those words would be ones you needed to look up in the dictionary because at 12 he has far surpassed you on the scale of socially acceptable intelligent human beings, and he is also fiercely protective of his mother who has raised him and done whatever was necessary to see to his needs. He know how to call a duck a duck too, but he would have a completely different word for you.

FLButtSlut -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/12/2005 10:46:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2 I have pets, I love them dearly. But if I decided I no longer wanted a pet, I think giving it away to a good owner would be the best thing to do. I think it's way off the mark to say I'm a bad pet owner or bad person because I don't value animals the same way you do, when I still treat them very well. And frankly, YES if parents can't take care of their children adequately, putting them up for adoption SHOULD be an option. Why is that bad? And if you have pets and children, I definitely think you should give the pet away so that you have more money to take care of the humans. Those are my priorities and I don't see anything wrong with it. It's not an "easy" choice, but it is the right one, when you're talking priorities. Finding a loving home for a pet you no longer want is certainly the right thing to do, and I don't think at any point, I have disagreed with that. HentaiGamerKitty, of course did not say that this was why she sold her dog, which she later admits was never sold in the first place. People can certainly own an animal for whatever reason they choose, but if their choice is different than my choice, they don't have the right to say anything either. People who would give up their pets or their children due to TEMPORARY financial struggles should not have either to begin with. Your regular offense at the "age issue" is compounded by the ignorance of the above statement. Certainly in situations where a parent or pet owner would no longer be able to care for their child or pet, outside placement is for the best. Temporary problems are quite different, and viewed quite differently. Grouping the statement together is nothing but pure ignorance and you should be grateful that the ignorance gets attributed to age, since it indicates that one can hopefully grow out it rather than remaining that ignorant forever.

FLButtSlut -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/12/2005 11:04:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic agreed. I -do- know several people who breed dogs, and none have ever made a profit at it. Most of the responsible breeders I know pretty much state at the outset that if you're doing all the stuff you need to do to have healthy puppies you're losing money when you breed, rather than making it. Given my dog's pedigrees, the starting price for the puppies will be somewhere in the $500 dollar range. I never said that people make a living off of it, although many do, they just are not breeding one dog. It doesn't make them "backyard" breeders either. As for how showing makes money? Apparently, no one has explained to you that the more the dog wins, the more the dog is worth. That means stud fees for a male, and puppy value for the female. When this year's Westminster Best In Show is bred, those puppies will be sold for likely twice the going rate or more of what the pups would have sold for without that title. Same thing with thoroughbred racehorses, the money isn't always in winning the race itself, but rather in the value of the animals offspring after the titles have been earned. quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic And wow. Why is it that age -always- becomes the measure of whether or not one should listen to someone else. I knowt his one wasn't dirrected at me, but damn. FYI. Yup. My father paid my university tuition. That's all. My parents made the commitment to me when I was young that they would make sure I could go to any school I could get into, and I'm greatful for that. Perhaps Thaly was lucky enough to have this as well. I'm not entirely sure how the fact that we were blessed enough to have parents willing to pay my tuition (note: tuition. There are lot o' other bills. I did my time working two jobs and moonlighting for a friend) devalues everything we have to say about bugeting and general responsiblity. I believe that parents SHOULD contribute as much as they can towards their child's education, but that wasn't the point. The point was that during that youthful period, should something tragic happen, you have your parents to fall back on if need be. I am not pointing to this as a bad thing, rather a factual one. Considering I paid my own college costs while working full time AND taking care of my son, I am very well aware of the "other costs" involved. The point is that, as you, perverseangelic, have recognized, sometimes the "best laid plans" don't exactly pan out. The concept that a temporary issue means that I am a neglectful pet owner or even worse, a neglectful parent is not even a statement made out of youthful ignorance, but out of what is likely to become lifelong stupidity. I have never hit anyone in my life, but I guarantee you that if Thaily, in all of her stupidity was ever dumb enough to cross my path, she would not be walking away after those comments. Ignorance is bliss, and frankly, she must be the happiest person on the planet. quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic I've been working really hard -not- to harshly criticize the OP. I can definatly sympathize. I think that expressing a bit of disagreement and difficulty with the situation, in polite terms, is -not- a bad thing. Nor does it mean I feel -less- for her. She lost a pet. THat alone is horrible. Voicing some of my personal beliefs about the situation surrounding the loss doesn't lessen the fact that I'm sorry she lost her pet. You have never been impolite on this post at all, and I understand your viewpoint. By the way, I was NOT able to find young healthy poodles on Petfinder in my area, but I also had quite a bit of trouble with the site. Regardless, I certainly am not in the market for another puppy, given that some are on their way already. PS, Last night, I was able to feel a teeny tiny foot kicking. Couldn't be any bigger than a mouse's paw. Mom is doing very well and adjusting to life without Charley, although she does look lonely at times without him. For those wondering, NO, I am not taking her to the vet to discuss her grief.

subversiveone -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/12/2005 11:31:00 PM)
Sorry about your loss, glad to hear mom is well. Where are the mod's? (or is it ok since it's off topic discussion?) Science diet? please tell me you don't think that's really good food beth...

Thaily -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 12:55:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut I took him to the Doggie ER tonight, but couldn't afford the cost of the blood work. I found a couple of places that work with the AAHA for helping those without the finances to get their dogs medical care, so I will take him there next week (Monday, Tuesday). And then it died, looks like you didn't do all you could or you would have A. gotten the money you needed or B. made an arrangement with the vet to pay him in terms, something a lot of vets do especially in emergencies. Considering how poorly it looked after 1 week waiting another week wasn't really an option. And I'm sure your son would have some choice words for me, just judging by your screenname I can see bad language isn't a big deal to you, not to mention attacking people's parents, wow. Really classy, how close are you to bringing out the "You so fat"-jabs? The only thing you accomplished by pointing out my age is clarify that older people aren't necessarily wiser or more mature. I'm going to stop replying though, it's obvious that you're too dense to get through to, I feel really bad for your remaining dog and your kid :/ I don't feel particularly bad for you, at least not in the regards to your dead dog, you deserve every bit of guilt you feel for his death. Mind I still pity you. 10 bucks says OP is going to get a new dog to try breeding again, though the question is if she's going to get another poodle or maybe a labrador so she can breed designer mutts.. I mean, labradoodles. Despite the fact breeding is an expensive hobby as already mentioned by multiple (experienced) people and vet and food costs easily amount to $500 or more per pup, assuming she can suddenly afford a vet. Anyway, go on, get your last word in so you can assure yourself this "child" has been thoroughly chastised mock gasp

ShadeDiva -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 4:12:29 AM)
It's always sad when a loved pet dies. But good points have been made here even if there were also barbs. There are two kinds of breeders. One that breeds to IMPROVE the breed because they love that breed. They LOSE money. Always. And their animals are worth the most. The ones that work to make the breed healthier and better dont allow unmonitored breeding. That means the dogs are never in the same room unless they are breeding when the bitch is in heat. Ever. It means that they put the money into assuring that never happens, whether it's kennels, crates, seprate yards, etc. Breeding responsibly takes a huge amount of money and time. It means screening dogs for genetic conditions like hip dysplasia, cardiac issues, respiratory issues, etc. And that if any are found, they are neutered or spayed, period, to protect the breed and they are sold as a pet animal. They do NOT sell online. They meet the potential owners and screen them for their ability to handle their breed. Not everyone can handle all breeds of dogs some take an extreme amount of time, money and work. Online sellers that state they have papers often with inscpection come to find out that the papers are meaningless, but the unsuspecting puclic and uneducated animal buyers just don't know. (And uneducated was not a diss it is simply that they do not know, that's all) Pedigrees are only available from certain organizations that measn anything in the dog breedeing and showing world and vcan be checked through that organization. NEVER accept an online breeders or any breeders word that the papers and pedigree lines are true - CHECK it. If they give an excuse about WHY they aren't registered, treat them with caution. I only know one person that breeds pedigrees and doesn't register them and is legit, but they aren't selling them as papered blood lines either. And there are hobby/backyard breeders. That through ignorance (and let me state here and now that when I use the term ignorance I am NOT using it as a statement of a person's IQ, but merely of their possession of knowledge on how to properly - and yes there IS a proper way to breed animals - and adequately meet the needs of that breed and to deal with the complications that breed has with reproducing) or simply not caring do not realize what responsible breeding means. I am also speaking in general, and not specifically at anyone here. Some breeds simply can NOT reproduce on their own anymore. Like English Bulldogs. They require c-sections, as through man's tampering the puppies craniums simply are too large to pass through the bitchs narrow hips (a genetic trait of the breed) and often will get stuck, killing that pup, the other pups behind it and endangering the bitch. Some manage but generally that is the expected cost of breeding that breed. Miniature and toy breeds are also typical problem breeders due to their small size and genetic traits due to their small sizes. It is often said that the smaller dogs have concentrated genetic traits of the larger breeds they came from. Show dogs aren't usually "money makers". Sure they are worth a lot on paper, but that gets eaten up with high quality dog food (generic foods and many brand name foods are often the cause of pet's ill health or malnutrition) veterinary bills, grooming costs, and screening tests. Most show dogs aren't sold to just anyone but to dedicated breeders that are dedicated to making that breed better and filtering out genetic traits that are in each breed due to man's tampering. Labradoodles, jackapoos, etc are mutts that the public is getting convinced are purebreeds and are paying thousands of dollars for a mutt. Miniatures and teacup breeds are even worse. But that's a different thread. I didn't know how to responsibly own a single animal let alone breed one until five years ago, and I raised numerous animals all my life. It's hard to realize that though we loved our animals and did our best that honestly, we weren't being responsible, but placing our desire above their health. It's a very hard pill to swallow and I think if I had it dshoved on my face I wouldn't accept my part in where I failed my pets either. It was hard enough to look hard at myself and admit it to just me alone in my head and heart. I didn't WANT to admit it, but in the end, the truth won out, and yeah I still hurt about it, but honestly, I just didn't know better and I was ignorant of my actions and what they really were. The cold hard truth here is though, and I know the timing sucks when one is mourning a loss as deep as a loved pet's loss is felt, that if you can't afford groceries, or a necropsy, the truth is you couldn't afford to breed them. If you can't afford groceries, then honestly, you can't afford to own an animal and be able to responsibly handle their needs or emergencies. It sucks and it's harsh I know, and if I could think of a way to soften it I would. I couldn't soften it for myself either, and yeah it hurt a lot. I still cry over my lack of realizing what it took to be a good pet owner even though I loved my babies and they loved me and they had a far better life with me than when I rescued them - the cold hard truth is, I wasn't a responsible pet owner. The general public (and I was one of them) tend to think breeding is as easy as putting the animal together and bingo. I know now that it was sheer luck that none of the animals I have had so far had good genes. It is amazing at how common it is for animals to have all sorts of genetic issues and how many of them wind up not making it or having to have medical care that costs thousands of dollars. Breeding is fairly pricey to do if you are doing it right - no judgement there - it's just a fact of breeding. But outside of the fact that hey a mistake was made and hey we have ALL made them, proud of them or not, we've all made some doozies that affected some other living being out there very badly, the real sad thing is that someone's baby died. And that pain hurts no matter what. So maybe the timing for the lesson isn't great but I can't blame them for wanting to educate to make folks that read this thread really THINK long and hard about just blythely breeding, it IS important and it's sad to see what is going n out there. You most likely couldn't have saved your dog, but you could have prevented the mating was what I saw people saying basically. In any case I do hope my intent comes through this post and you don't read in judgement or insults where none were intended. If anything I've written hits a sore point, I ask that you stop and not post right away but wait a moment and really think on why you are feeling what you are feeling and why my words evoked that reaction and then let me know why my words did so. It is possible that I might have worded something badly and I would appreciate the chance to clarify before you take it to heart, if you know what I mean. But know your little fella knew you loved him and he loved you back. Which really is most likely the most important thing of all I think, right? Edit note: Sorry I saw horrid typos and just HAD to edit them LOL!

pinkpleasures -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 8:07:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut Thaily, I'm sure in your 4 whole years as an adult (how much of that was spent with mommy and daddy supporting you at university), you have no concept that sometimes things happen and financial trouble occurs unexpectedly. I guess by your standards, my sudden financial problems indicate I should also put my son up for adoption. I think I will stick with taking advice from people who have a clue, which does not include you. quote: Aaah, the age-ticket. Actually I've been living on my own and supporting myself since I was 19, and I have owned and still own a number of pets who have never gone without, unlike the male dog that died, because YOU couldn't afford vet care despite any financial problems. How ironic is that? Maybe you should put your son up for adoption, if you can't even take proper care of a dog. I mean, they say that being a mother is the hardest job in the world, so it should only make sense that someone should be able to fire you. I've studied animal caretaking and did lots of volunteerwork, including with a pound, so I know exactly what I'm talking about, I'm just not afraid to call a duck a duck. Thaily Put the CHILD up for adoption? This is one of the most hateful things i've seen posted here. It underscores for me a belief i have that people who are overly-invested in animals sometimes lack basic human decency when it comes to people. Thaily should be <insert word for beaten here>. pinkpleasures

Prunesquallor -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 12:43:18 PM)
<<If you can't afford the vet, you can't afford the pet.>> In other words, no one should ever buy a pet unless they have a cast-iron certainty that they will \always be in a position to pay the vet bills, even if their pet develops a chronic condition that will require constant veterinary attention. Right. That would seem to let out everybody except the very wealthy, and even they don't really qualify, unless they have a guarantee that their income will always be maintained for - what - twenty years? It's very easy to mouth slogans, but I tend to agree with the poster before last. There has been an extraordinary lack of compassion shown in this thread, and the last posting takes insensitivity to a whole new level, IMO.

Prunesquallor -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 12:45:03 PM)
Oops - let me quickly say that I missed a couple of pages, and I wasn't referring to the last poster at all! It was actually in reference to Thaily's posting on page one.

AAkasha -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 1:11:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prunesquallor <<If you can't afford the vet, you can't afford the pet.>> In other words, no one should ever buy a pet unless they have a cast-iron certainty that they will \always be in a position to pay the vet bills, even if their pet develops a chronic condition that will require constant veterinary attention. Right. That would seem to let out everybody except the very wealthy, and even they don't really qualify, unless they have a guarantee that their income will always be maintained for - what - twenty years? It's very easy to mouth slogans, but I tend to agree with the poster before last. There has been an extraordinary lack of compassion shown in this thread, and the last posting takes insensitivity to a whole new level, IMO. Of course people should be expected to have enough disposable income on hand at any given time to handle even a worst case scenario. It is NOT unreasonable to expect that someone who gets a pet has enough money to pay for what can be expected as far as medical fees, with a little more included for emergencies -- like bloodwork, or the basics needed for care. If someone is going to breed dogs, they should DEFINITELY have the money set aside for prenatal care, a c-section if needed and post natal care for the pups. Are you telling me it's unreasonable that they put aside any money at all? A dog getting hit by a car cannot be predicted. A dog having puppies by choice has anticipated costs. In the OP's case they did not have enough for blood work at an ER. They also didn't take the dog to the vet earlier, when normal fees would apply, to save money. I would think at the bare minimum people set aside a few hundred dollars in case of an emergency for a pet. Others ARE prepared to do whatever it takes for the care and comfort of their pet, whether or not they are wealthy. I paid $150 to have a tumor removed from a one dollar rat and have paid more than $1,000 in vet bills for a ferret. When I obtained both of these animals I did it with a pledge to provide whatever care needed to keep them alive and comfortable. To some, those numbers would be too high. I understand that and wouldn't judge someone who had a one dollar rat put down intead of paying for surgery, and I'd be upset to see someone not pay $1,000 for surgery on a ferret when the ailment is common in up to 30% of them (anyone who buys a ferret should be prepared for this ailment because it is so common - if you can't afford the surgery, don't get the ferret). If she could not afford health care for the dog, so be it. Some people cannot, and they roll the dice. But to have PUPPIES when you can't afford it -- that's just wrong. Akasha

perverseangelic -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 1:14:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prunesquallor <<If you can't afford the vet, you can't afford the pet.>> In other words, no one should ever buy a pet unless they have a cast-iron certainty that they will \always be in a position to pay the vet bills, even if their pet develops a chronic condition that will require constant veterinary attention. Right. That would seem to let out everybody except the very wealthy, and even they don't really qualify, unless they have a guarantee that their income will always be maintained for - what - twenty years? Yes. One doesn't have to have that much money on hand. One -does- have to be willing to get the money, or work something out with the vet, or be willing to do the work to find a good home for adoption. If one cannot afford to get adequate medical treatment for an animal, through whatever means even if it's payment plans, then one should find a new home for that pet. Vet care is as necessary for animals as food. If one couldn't afford to buy food for one's pet, should one have that animal? There are numerous free and very low cost vet clinics all over the country, it takes work to find them, and often driving to get to them. There are fund that provide grants for emergency vet care. There is pet insurance. If one can't afford that, I belive one should rehome ones pet, even if it's only temporarily untill the money situation works out. I have an aquaintence that had several legal emergencies arise at once. It got pretty bad financially, so she found someone who was willing to take her dogs for a limited amount of time. They wrote out a contract specifying the scope of the time they'd be there, the friend took in the dogs, and cared for them. When my aquantience got back on her feet, she got her dogs back. To me, that is responsible pet care.

Prunesquallor -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 2:57:09 PM)
quote: If someone is going to breed dogs, they should DEFINITELY have the money set aside for prenatal care, a c-section if needed and post natal care for the pups. Are you telling me it's unreasonable that they put aside any money at all? As I understand it she had a sudden and catastrophic financial crisis. If you are in the fortunate position of being unable to understand how that could possibly happen, then good for you. Most of us aren't so lucky. quote: I paid $150 to have a tumor removed from a one dollar rat and have paid more than $1,000 in vet bills for a ferret. Yes, by coincidence I have paid for an expensive operation on a rat. I don't feel virtuous about it, though. And I maintain that it is impossible for most of us - again, you are obviously lucky - to predict our financial future to the degree that we know when we acquire a pet we will always be able to pay for any kind of treatment it might need. Anyway, I feel the issue here is not one of pet care but one of simple compassion. It's one thing to point out lessons to people - it's something else entirely to kick them when they are down.

pinkpleasures -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 3:29:45 PM)
quote: In other words, no one should ever buy a pet unless they have a cast-iron certainty that they will \always be in a position to pay the vet bills, even if their pet develops a chronic condition that will require constant veterinary attention. Right. That would seem to let out everybody except the very wealthy, and even they don't really qualify, unless they have a guarantee that their income will always be maintained for - what - twenty years? Prunesquallor In this economy no one has a "cast iron" certainty of their income for 20 years unless they have an annuity or something. The previous poster seems to feel only the wealthy should own pets, which is ridiculous. i agree that there should be a good situation for the pet...people who buy rotties or pit bulls when they have small kids really annoy me because i think it's too dangerous....but if you have money for spaying and shots, think you are entitled to own a pet...extraordinary measures may be out of your league financially but you can provide the necessities and i think you should be free to own a pet even if you are not a wealthy person. pinkpleasures

HentaiGamerKitty -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 3:45:28 PM)
I think the point being made is that although owning a pet is something most people should be able to do, those people should not be BREEDING their pets unless they have the financial stability to do so. These two dogs should never have been allowed in the same room together if the OP didn't have the money set back to cover the vet fees associated with pregnancy. They should have been housed in areas separate from each other.

FLButtSlut -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 7:40:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShadeDiva It's always sad when a loved pet dies. But good points have been made here even if there were also barbs. But know your little fella knew you loved him and he loved you back. Which really is most likely the most important thing of all I think, right? Dear Shade, You have been around here for quite a while, and I have always respected your level headed approach to things. As I said numerous times, although the children can't seem to absorb it, is that our financial situation is temporary. You don't make rash decisions such as giving up your pet, or as some ignorant fools have suggested - your child because of temporary set backs. It is not only irresponsible, but leads to horrible regret in the long run. Kind of like when a loved one (human) dies, you often wish that you died with them because your grief is so great. Obviously, that grief, while very real, is a temporary situation. I have never denied that the mating was something that I wanted to wait on. On the other hand, when suddenly I was unexpectedly laid up with an injury and unable to monitor things properly, it did occur. Is this an excuse? Of course not, but then again, there are probably those here who would suggest that at the onset of my injury, I should have sent my animals off somewhere because I was unable to properly care for them. THAT is what I have found so offensive, the concept that one should give up everything for a temporary setback without thought of the future and the fact that the situation is not going to be long term. Intelligence is having the ability to recognize proper time and place for certain discussions. The youngsters here are obviously lacking in that regard as well as far too many other common sense abilities to mention. To then attack my abilities as a parent is taking things way too far, and shows their ignorance even more, especially for the ones who openly admit that they "hate" children and never intend on having any. Raising a child is something that far too many childless people have opinions on without any real knowledge or concept of what goes into it, and as such, often not only is their opinion on the matter completely lacking in relevant knowledge, but also showing absolute ignorance and arrogance of thinking they actually have a clue as to what it takes. Those who gave away their pets because they couldn't follow through on their commitment to care for them have no place commenting on the job others are doing. Their failure as responsible pet owners does not equate to may failure as a responsible pet owner. Their comments about my parenting abilities are nothing more than idiocy from the uninformed who will hopefully never choose to have children of their own until they actually do grow up. So what is the difference between YOUR post and theirs? I think you already know. You did not attack me personally because you have class and intelligence. Others do not. Quite a bit has occured since Charley's death, most of which is finding out that I did do all that was possible. Charley's death was NOT preventable, nor was it genetic. I DID choose not to expend thousands of dollars only to find out that I would not have been able to do anything but prolong his suffering, and I never would make that choice. Instead, Charley died knowing how loved he was. In the end, that is all any of us can hope for...to not die alone. quote: ORIGINAL: ShadeDiva Labradoodles, jackapoos, etc are mutts that the public is getting convinced are purebreeds and are paying thousands of dollars for a mutt. Miniatures and teacup breeds are even worse. This is the only comment you made that I take issue with. Yes, the idea that Labradoodles, jackapoos or schnoodles are a marketable breed is funny. However, miniatures and toys are recognized by the kennel clubs and are a showable breed. The tiny toys and the teacups are not recognized widely. Incidentally, all plans have already been put in place for Pepper's well being when her "time" comes and as I have mentioned far too often to deaf ears, she is doing quite well. That is of course aside from her discomfort at being pregnant. She has not been very happy about getting kicked internally, but then again, I can't really blame her for that one, nor does it require medical intervention.

FLButtSlut -> RE: My Poodle's Performance Anxiety (10/13/2005 7:50:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HentaiGamerKitty I think the point being made is that although owning a pet is something most people should be able to do, those people should not be BREEDING their pets unless they have the financial stability to do so. These two dogs should never have been allowed in the same room together if the OP didn't have the money set back to cover the vet fees associated with pregnancy. They should have been housed in areas separate from each other. I find it quite remarkable that someone in your position feels the ability to comment on how to handle a situation such as this. I guess it is unreasonable that I found myself suddenly bedridden and really couldn't think about what the dogs were doing. A totally unexpected situation. Then again, if you had found yourself in that position, your mother would have come in and told you what to do or perhaps thrown a hammer at you to get out hobbling out of bed to take care of the dogs. When you are completely responsible for your life, not to mention the lives of others without the assistance of your mother or a master to tell you what to do, then you might be in a position to comment. Until then, your comments are taken for exactly what they are worth...the ignorant ramblings of someone who doesn't know any better.

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