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BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/13/2008 11:57:40 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		Just as a warning, I predict I will be ruffling a few feathers with this as I do with most of the topics I choose to start.

Time and time again, both online and in real time, I see the same recurring perspective that people who are involved in BDSM or D/S or M/S won't be accepted by "vanilla" people or in some cases, persecuted by them.

I don't buy this nor do I believe it. It simply isn't consistent with my experiences with people.

I'm not a true believer in anything and I am not the kind of person who only surrounds himself with like-minded individuals. I like people who have different opinions then me and don't see things the same way. The different perspectives provide new ideas and force me to think about things in a different way.

I've had the pleasure of befriending a wide variety of individuals including...

D, the blue collar contractor with a neurotic disdain for homosexuals
T, the Southern conservative with a belief in traditional values
A, the hardcore Christian girl with fundamental Christian beliefs
B, the old school chef who still thinks married couples should keep separate beds
C, the hardcore feminist

All of these people and several more are fully aware that I am a sadistic dominant who enjoys controlling women and am mildly involved in organized groups with members involved in a large variety of alternative and deviant lifestyles and all these people are still my friends.

I attribute this to something that took me awhile to fully learn and realize.

Whoever has the strongest perspective of their reality will dominate.

If you believe that you are pathetic, then you are pathetic. If you believe that you are confident, then you are confident. If you believe that the things that you do are sick, wrong, or bad, then they are sick, wrong, and bad and other people will sense it and see it and they will believe that about you, too.

From what I have experienced, its really how all that shit works. There is nothing more to confidence and acceptance then that. How the majority of people treat you depends on your attitude.

I've pretty much heard it all at this point. I'm sick, I'm fucked up, I'm a freak, I'm a macho sexist, I'm destroying the feminist movement, I need to get psychological counseling to "cure" myself....

However, by not allowing them to subvert, convert, or change my perspective on my reality and not doubting myself and what I knew to be true, their initial reactions eventually passed. At that point, curiosity and a lot of questions tended to follow.

I have not lost a single "vanilla" friend due to not being "normal". They make jokes and they make fun of me, but I'm laughing right along with them.

Or as my buddy put it..."Well, fuck...I know your a good guy, so all that shit can't be that bad if your doing it."

The point that I am getting at is I don't find that in this day in the age the notion of persecution and non-acceptance is something that is grounded in reality. It's not the average person out there who has a problem with BDSM or M/S, but rather the people into BDSM or M/S who have a problem with BDSM or M/S. This perspective that is presented is a result of people being insecure or ashamed of what they do and projecting that as some external threat that everyone needs to be afraid of.

I'm not trying to tell people how to life their lives or suggesting that you go out tomorrow and tell your boss or walk into a bar, throw your hands in the air, and scream "HEY, I LIKE TO BE DRESSED IN DIAPERS AND BE SPANKED!". This is simply my experiences with dealing vanilla people and my opinion based on those experiences.

I look forward to hearing whether you agree or disagree.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY
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RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 12:16:00 AM   
allyC


Posts: 778
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline 		Hello there. While I agree to a point, I offer that "people" are far less accepting than individuals. I think that to say that all 'vanilla' folks won't accept bdsm is just as bad as saying all vanilla people will accept bdsm. It all depends on the individual - but when you're speaking of a group of people?  Well their opinion will depend entirely on how many of them are sheep and how many are shepherds. Well wishes, Cav's ally

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 12:20:31 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		I took the name Chamber Queen as a joke because I work with environmental test chambers, am one of the few women in the field, and people used to hear me teach and afterwards would say, "Who was that chamber lady?"  I had been told to give myself a title at my job, and after finding out that my first three choices had been taken, I threw my hands up in the air and joked, "Just call me the Chamber Queen."  So, to keep fresh in the minds of customers and colleagues, I used it as part of my email address.

I didn't realize at the time how many people put the word Chamber together with Bedroom.  When I became a Domme I decided just to keep using the name since it seemed fitting.  I had dinner with a colleague last night who was laughing about the name because he never put it together with the work that I do.  He was acting on the verge of lascivious so I chose not to tell him that he was absolutely correct in his assumption.  We will be meeting together with other international delegates for the majority of the week, and I want his attention on the work.  (I am chairing the session.)  However, on the last day I plan on telling him that he was right.  : )  I am not ashamed of the lifestyle at all - it has brought me true fulfillment for the first time in my life.  I just believe that there is a time and place for sharing with other people.  If I was asked straight out if I belonged to the lifestyle I would proudly say yes and answer questions about it.  I just don't need wolves salivating around me.


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RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 1:26:16 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Time and time again, both online and in real time, I see the same recurring perspective that people who are involved in BDSM or D/S or M/S won't be accepted by "vanilla" people or in some cases, persecuted by them.

I don't buy this nor do I believe it. It simply isn't consistent with my experiences with people.


I look forward to hearing whether you agree or disagree.


You don't have to buy it or believe it. In fact, I'd say count your blessings that you've never been subjected to any sort of discrimination or recriminations for following your path as you see fit. (Get any bondage pics approved on Collarme lately? How about a nice pic of a butt covered in hot wax? Pic of someone wearing a ball gag? No? Hmmm.)  I can't say the same though. I've lost both a job and what I thought was a good friend of almost 20 years because of how I live my life. Not to long ago, someone on one of the Gorean boards referred to those of us who engage in BDSM as 'circus freaks' or some such nonsense.

I founded a group called Utah Power Exchange (UPEX) and was a founding member of Conservative Kink (CK), also in Utah. Both orgs were BDSM oriented and both were started as a source for socialization, education and information.  Any sort of group starts from the ground up and takes a lot of different skill sets to implement and maintain in a successful manner. Among the skills required for such a task are leadership, tenacity, organization, research, recruitment, accounting, vendor relations etc. I've written various articles for several BDSM ezines and magazines. As soon as I can put those sorts of things on a job application and still get the job, I'll buy that BDSM, M/s and D/s has been fully mainstreamed. As soon as consent becomes an acceptable defense in an abuse case, I won't worry about Himself doing jail time. How many events have been cancelled or moved because Joe Public didn't want 'our kind' gracing their doorways? I can think of at least 4 major ones just off the top of my head without doing a speck of research.

It's better than it was but is no where near what it could be. That's okay though. I see it for what it is and will continue to use my voice and writing skills to send letters to zines like The Weekly Standard and other such conservative magazines who advocate putting us all in either straight jackets or jail cells and if others want to pretend that all is kosher in vanilla land, it's all good. I've never, once, had a problem being a lone voice.

Celeste


_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 2:02:26 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I agree when it comes to interpersonal, one-on-one relationships. I don't agree when it comes to sweeping generalization made by people perpetuation the 'us' (usually religious) vs 'them' (usually a group doing something 'sinful'). I myself went from the latter group to the former group once I was exposed to the lifestyle and interacted with gay men. I have, however, seen how the latter has been used in child custody battles.

Your theory/observation accurate describes what I see between two people, but not what I see between two groups.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 2:27:56 AM   
Daddysjezzy


Posts: 54
Joined: 7/4/2005
Status: offline 		I think people's experiences of this are as unique as we all are.  Some have no problems while others do.  I don't  overtly display what I do in my private life, not because Im ashamed of it but because its private.  I wouldnt do it if I was vanilla either but thats just a personal choice.  If people do find out they are free to feel anyway they like about it.  However if they dont like it, they can keep their opinion to themself because I dont need their validation.

jezzy

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Profile   Post #: 6
RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 2:33:33 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		I think that as has been mentioned group mentality is differant, however that does depend on how we project ourselves. I agree that the whole "dirty wrong" thing is not only really annoying but makes it worse, I guess though for some people its the idea that its dirty and wrong that gets them off.

Personally I have told many people about it if you talk about it as though its no big deal then people act like its no big deal, in fact often I dont even sit people down and say this is what i am ill just ask their opinion on an outfit or mention going to a fair or whatever. People in general are abusive to things that they dont understand. BDSM is one of those things, it makes no sense. I remember talking to a group of people from my history class and they were all going "eww why whould anyone do that ewww ewww" and I looked at the girls and said "have you ever had your nipples bitten" they all nodded "did you enjoy it" again they nodded and then smiled and that was it didnt really come up much again except to ask how certain events had been and stuff.

I think I am lucky becuase the kind of people i know and talk to wouldnt bat an eye lid really, and I also havent had any vilent abusive reactions to it personally.




_____________________________

Resident Lime(y) Tart
There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 4:25:37 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Try running for public office once pics of you wearing leather and wielding a whip get around.
Try getting or keeping a job as a teacher when people know you do this.
See what happens if you live in a Southern Baptist state and are fighting for custody.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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Profile   Post #: 8
RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 4:36:45 AM   
MissLily


Posts: 146
Joined: 8/19/2007
Status: offline 		Oh, I agree 200%. Most of the people around Me know about My preferences, but still respect Me, because they know I'm a decent human being. Some of them have also even tried the lifestyle because they were curious about it.

I find life is more interesting when you gather different kinds of people around you. And it's a good exercise in tolerance too, because it forces you to accept things that you would normally not want to consider, think about. I find tolerance goes both ways. If you tolerate people, chances are you'll be tolerated in return.

Miss Lily

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 4:43:44 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Time and time again, both online and in real time, I see the same recurring perspective that people who are involved in BDSM or D/S or M/S won't be accepted by "vanilla" people or in some cases, persecuted by them.

I don't buy this nor do I believe it. It simply isn't consistent with my experiences with people.


I look forward to hearing whether you agree or disagree.


You don't have to buy it or believe it. In fact, I'd say count your blessings that you've never been subjected to any sort of discrimination or recriminations for following your path as you see fit. (Get any bondage pics approved on Collarme lately? How about a nice pic of a butt covered in hot wax? Pic of someone wearing a ball gag? No? Hmmm.)  I can't say the same though. I've lost both a job and what I thought was a good friend of almost 20 years because of how I live my life. Not to long ago, someone on one of the Gorean boards referred to those of us who engage in BDSM as 'circus freaks' or some such nonsense.

I founded a group called Utah Power Exchange (UPEX) and was a founding member of Conservative Kink (CK), also in Utah. Both orgs were BDSM oriented and both were started as a source for socialization, education and information.  Any sort of group starts from the ground up and takes a lot of different skill sets to implement and maintain in a successful manner. Among the skills required for such a task are leadership, tenacity, organization, research, recruitment, accounting, vendor relations etc. I've written various articles for several BDSM ezines and magazines. As soon as I can put those sorts of things on a job application and still get the job, I'll buy that BDSM, M/s and D/s has been fully mainstreamed. As soon as consent becomes an acceptable defense in an abuse case, I won't worry about Himself doing jail time. How many events have been cancelled or moved because Joe Public didn't want 'our kind' gracing their doorways? I can think of at least 4 major ones just off the top of my head without doing a speck of research.

It's better than it was but is no where near what it could be. That's okay though. I see it for what it is and will continue to use my voice and writing skills to send letters to zines like The Weekly Standard and other such conservative magazines who advocate putting us all in either straight jackets or jail cells and if others want to pretend that all is kosher in vanilla land, it's all good. I've never, once, had a problem being a lone voice.

Celeste



Thanks for sharing (as well as everyone else). I'm not claiming that I am absolutely right and I am not fooling myself into thinking that I have a wide enough scope of experience with human interaction for it to be completely accurate.

MasterFireMa'am did make a good point though and she's right. I was referring to solely interpersonal relationships with people I have developed some degree of rapport with and not within the context of the professional or political. I should have been a bit more specific.

I'm sorry that you (and anyone else for that matter) lost a job and a friend. I've thought about what would happen if I did lose a good friend over it. I always come to the same conclusion: If I had have to hide things from them and they can't accept me for who I am in my entirety, then they weren't meant to be my friend in the beginning.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 4/14/2008 4:46:28 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 4:47:45 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I don't eat, live or breathe BDSM. D/s is just the way I interact with my lover, I've been 'bent' for as long as I remember, but it's not a lifestyle to me. Your question is about how one harmonises their sexuality or relationship preferences with the world at large; to me, there is no such thing as a 'vanilla world' or a BDSM planet. Everything is intertwined in my life.

You could call me 'vanilla' and I wouldn't give a damn.

But that's just me.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/14/2008 4:50:07 AM >

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RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 5:24:18 AM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		Gender will also play a role in general aceptance
A male dom,  is best accepted .. the view ....just  a guy just getting his rocks off  with  the addition of some kinks 
Female domme  -- the view often -- a twisted man hater on a power trip
A female sub  -- the view - a twisted  piece of fuck meat  that wants to be abused,
A male sub --  a sick fruitcake

Always interesting for me to listen to the guys at work(auto plant)  talking about  so I get a drift of some common views , out of a group of 6 talking/teasing  about last week only one had some sort of clue that was not too off base, they have no idea about me .. I just sat back and listened in amusement







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Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

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RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 5:42:27 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001
A female sub  -- the view - a twisted  piece of fuck meat  that wants to be abused,


I generally agree, but thats down to ignorance too for example most people I know would never think that way  of me but as you say its a general idea held by people who simply dont have a clue


_____________________________

Resident Lime(y) Tart
There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

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Profile   Post #: 13
RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 5:49:40 AM   
Bellaforte


Posts: 1
Joined: 4/13/2008
Status: offline 		I would tend to agree, but only to an extent. My 'nilla friends (and given the amount of time I spend at the local university, that means the majority of them) mostly find it mildly interesting and amusing, a little titillating.
But there are always those few who simply can't handle it. I have a dear guy friend, former Marine, who could handle my submissive side, but considers my Domme side "a little creepy". I find that absolutely hilarious, given that he has only seen the very mildest aspects of the Domme side, and some of my harsher submissive interests.
Now, obviously everyone has individual quirks, but I've found this to be a pattern. Many people can handle one side of me, but not the other.

(in reply to allyC)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 6:19:03 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		It was touched on a bit in your post, MadRabbit, but I also happen to think how, and when the information in introduced to a friend has a lot to do with it.  By that, I mean there might be a difference in how it's seen by others depending on how the subject is being presented.  Take any of the folks you used to demonstrate your point.  Was it a case of A) You, as that person's friend, is involved in BDSM or B) You, a person involved in BDSM, is becoming a friend?  It may sound like the same thing, but they really are two different perspectives.

In My experience, I've found more acceptance with the type A case scenario.  I've received more acceptance from others who have different life choices when they saw Me as a person first, rather than the activities that I do.  In that statement, I'm not especially saying that I hide the things that I do.  It's just that it usually isn't the first topic that comes up when getting to know people in a vanilla setting. 

I do agree that a person's own acceptance of who they are contributes to how some things are dealt with when interacting with another person.  For example, I have a running gag with someone that has come to know Me over these past couple of years.

Him:  "You're a perv."
Me:  "You say that like it's a bad thing."

If, for some reason, I would let the opening to the gag allow Me to feel a sense of shame, I would certainly have a different feeling about the interaction.  Since I don't, it's become more of a laugh than anything else.  Because I don't have any negative feelings about it, I would tend to agree with you and your opinion of how I handle it and the acceptance that goes along with it.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 7:41:26 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		By and large, my poly, kinky family is more respected and gets more support from our vanilla but moderate to liberal minded friends and colleagues than we ever did in the local community. In the local community people were so busy trying to define what it meant to be a slave or an owner or whatever term you want to use that they couldn't see the individual relationships. Our friends and colleagues see us, have few preconceived definitions and what they do have gets blown away when they observe how happy and functional we all are.

In general I fear that people who are "part of a group" can turn into the biggest problems and threats for a group than someone from outside. I would hope that being a minority would help people grow in understanding and strengthen their connections but instead I see a lot of unnecessary competition. Perhaps that is because the person competing thinks she/he can't compete in the wider world so they try to rule over others in the minority. Hey, if I'm Mistress in my household, that's really enough for me.

However, here's my honest warning, not everyone who knows you is going to accept you so try to be yourself without shoving your kink into everyone's face. You can live out of the closet and still protect yourself and others.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 9:10:04 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		I pretty much agree with all the answers. I think the odds are the fear of something bad is more in the head then reality but the truth is some fear is very much legit as people have already shown in some examples.

I have outed myself on several occasions and have lost a few acquaintances but pretty much my experience is people find it is good for some gossip and titillation and if you act nonchalantly about it and not force it on others that it simply something that gets lost when something else is new and exciting to gossip about.

But the fact is in certain jobs and with certain judgmental people to think this life would not be an issue is foolish.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 5:08:54 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I look forward to hearing whether you agree or disagree.


I agree... and.. I disagree.

I do believe that the "Fear" of  the "Vanilla World" is often more illusion than reality.  In fact, some people become very curious about what it is we do... even if they are not interested in doing it themselves.

However, as much as many are accepting and tolerant of this lifestyle... there is many that are very close-minded and full of prejudice of this lifestyle as well.  Sometimes these people can hold a position within society that can make it very difficult for us.. but sometimes they are a person that nobody listens to.

Is the fear real... yeah..... but often it's inflated Fear.... It's just another Risk people have to consider.. no different than when we play with floggers, whips, canes, fire, needles.... there are risks with it all...

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 5:24:05 PM   
Floggings4You


Posts: 240
Joined: 12/18/2006
Status: offline 		I think the intial poster is right: the people with the strongest convictions, the people who are most committed to their POV, are going to prevail over those who are less sure about the validity of their beliefs.
 
And, someone who is very committed to whatever lifestyle (be it Christian or BDSM), is going to be able to withstand peer pressure from less-committed peers of differing 'lifestyles', 'values', etc.
 
But, never forget, there are people who are every bit as committed to 'traditional Christian, family values', are you are to BDSM.
 
You (the BDSM 'true believer') may 'win' (or, at least, not have to surrender) when surrounded by your not-quite-true-believing 'vanilla' friends. 
 
But, get a few dozen (or a few hundred, or a few thousand) like-minded Christian friends in a room and put a charismatic, commited leader in charge, and even your wishy-washy friends will change their tune--and their votes, every time. 
 
Your commitment to a contrary 'cause' will count for nothing, then.
 
It sucks, but that's the way it is. 

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: BDSM and the "Vanilla World" - 4/14/2008 5:56:48 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

But the fact is in certain jobs and with certain judgmental people to think this life would not be an issue is foolish.



I agree with that and am not naively obtuse to that when I make my own decisions. It certainly comes into play with my own business and the image I attempt to project for clients.

Thanks to everyone who responded. 

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 20
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