seperaton of church and state (Full Version)

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domahpet -> seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 7:32:34 AM)

im sorry but if this is the way it is (supposed to be)
then what the hell is the president doing with the Pope
at the white house?
i have the feeling the Pope is about to be flamed for not putting his hand over his heart
during the US anthem.....




camille65 -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 7:39:45 AM)

The Pope has power. Actually he has Power with a capital 'P' and a lot of people see him as a world leader which makes it sort of natural to meet with another leader.. our beloved Shrub.
The Pope has a lot of influence on people around the world, if I were President (lol) then for sure I would be keeping an eye and ear on him.




Bethnai -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 7:40:38 AM)

Is this the ex-Nazi Pope?




Aneirin -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 7:41:02 AM)

I was thinking the same when I heard he was flying to the US earlier, like, 'what's his game' ?

Belief and politics needs to be as kept far apart as possible.




domahpet -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 7:44:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bethnai
Is this the ex-Nazi Pope?


no, its the ex-Toyota Pope [8|]




Bethnai -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 7:48:56 AM)

I knew I had it.




domahpet -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 7:55:00 AM)

<<kidding. i dont really know much about this Popes background.
im not catholic but my mother was.
he had some sort of ad lib press conference on the plane
to DC, addressing the preist molestation issue, im going to see if its
been uploaded yet.
i like the way this man presents himself...




Bethnai -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:00:52 AM)

I'm glad. I initially thought I was funny. Its a mistake I repeat. Often.




domahpet -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:09:50 AM)

found it
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24155536#24137619

also heres some info on the "nazi Pope"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23082715#23082715




kittinSol -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:10:05 AM)

The Pope isn't just a religious figure, he is also a head of state (the Vatican). Granted, it's a tiny state, merely surrounded by a brickwall, but it's a state nonetheless. The Pope's in the USA because he's addressing the United Nations assembly in New York - as a visiting head of state, it's to be expected that he will meet with the head of state of the country he is visiting. In this case, Dubbya. It's a normal part of the diplomatic course.

Still, it's very unfortunate that the Pope was a member of the Hitler's youth.




KatyLied -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:14:52 AM)


quote:

Still, it's very unfortunate that the Pope was a member of the Hitler's youth.


If I'm not mistaken that was customary and required for the youth of his time in Germany. 




chellekitty -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:28:40 AM)

i often poke at my Catholic friends and family members with the nazi-pope thing, but in reality if you were a male youth at the time of the nazi regime you were legally required to enroll in the hitler youth, which he did and he was very opposed to it, didn't attend the meetings, he was even drafted out of seminary to the troops and then deserted as soon as he could when his unit ceased to exist...

as for the seperation of church and state...as well as being the head of the catholic church, the Pope is the leader of the Vatican, which is a soveriegn city-state - it is small, 110 acres, but it is still independent of any other country, and the Pope is it's elected leader, though meeting with religious overtones, this is one world leader meeting with another world leader, and as pointed out by one of the people on the channel i am watching, as neutral people, the people from the Vatican can get a whole lot more information than most people from the USA...

btw...i didn't see any comments when the president met with religious/political leaders from other faiths/countries...the reason for all the pomp and circumstance was because it was here in the USA and this has been only the second time ever a Pope has come to the USA and the first time for Pope Benedict and he is highly respected by so many Americans, not just the President - in fact, after a quick google search, the President is Methodist, "converted" from Episcopal...not Catholic...

did anyone else listen to the speaches? with an open mind?

chelle




kittinSol -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:28:47 AM)

Ratzinger made comments condemning anti-semitism, but he's remained elusive over Nazism. While I agree that his past as a young member of the HY doesn't make him a Nazi, it still doesn't make it okay for him to remain silent over the issue - he has never condemned nazism publicly, and many people would appreciate a humble, public apology, or at least an explanation.

I understand his conscription in the HY could have been involuntary, but modern public life requires for important figures to clean the slate clean should there be any ambiguity about their past.

I was never a fan of Catholicism, and find the Papacy to be a relic of an ancient, less enlightened age, but at least John Paul II made public statements that condemned Nazism.





domahpet -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:29:19 AM)

i looked it up, it was mandatory:

The HJ was originally Munich-based only. In 1923, the organization had a little over one thousand members. In 1925, when the Nazi Party had been refounded, the membership grew to over 5,000. Five years later, national HJ membership stood at 25,000. By the end of 1932 (a few weeks before the Nazis came to power) it was at 107,956. At the end of 1933, the HJ had 2,300,000 members. Much of these increases came from the more or less forcible merger of other youth organizations with the HJ. (The sizable Evangelische Jugend, the Evangelical youth organisation of 600,000 members, was integrated on February 18, 1934).[2]
By December 1936, HJ membership stood at just over five million. That same month, HJ membership became mandatory, under the Gesetz über die Hitlerjugend law. This legal obligation was re-affirmed in 1939 with the Jugenddienstpflicht and HJ membership was required even when it was opposed by the member's parents. From then on, most of Germany's teenagers belonged to the HJ. By 1940, it had eight million members. Later war figures are difficult to calculate, since massive conscription efforts and a general call-up of boys as young as ten years old meant that virtually every young male in Germany was, in some way, connected to the HJ. Only about 10 to 20% were able to avoid joining




chellekitty -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:31:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied


quote:

Still, it's very unfortunate that the Pope was a member of the Hitler's youth.


If I'm not mistaken that was customary and required for the youth of his time in Germany. 



there is a nice older German lady at my church who's family refused to enroll in anything Nazi....she spent a few years in a concentration camp, not because she was jewish, mentally retarded, gay, any of those other things they listed as undesireable, but because her family refused to join the nazi's...she made it out alive...many, many didn't....




domahpet -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:34:53 AM)

quote:

btw...i didn't see any comments when the president met with religious/political leaders from other faiths/countries...the reason for all the pomp and circumstance was because it was here in the USA and this has been only the second time ever a Pope has come to the USA


wasnt watching the news when any other leaders came to visit.....
news today says this is the biggest event of its kind ever at the white house,
which maybe dosent say much since theres only ever been one other visit by the Pope.
i like this Pope, he got a good beat that you can dance to [;)]




chellekitty -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:38:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

quote:

btw...i didn't see any comments when the president met with religious/political leaders from other faiths/countries...the reason for all the pomp and circumstance was because it was here in the USA and this has been only the second time ever a Pope has come to the USA


wasnt watching the news when any other leaders came to visit.....
news today says this is the biggest event of its kind ever at the white house,
which maybe dosent say much since theres only ever been one other visit by the Pope.
i like this Pope, he got a good beat that you can dance to [;)]


i didn't say they came to visit, in fact that was one of my reasonings for all the pomp and circumstance, was that because it was here...he met with other leaders in their territory

and i believe that they are saying that it is the biggest welcoming ceremony of a world leader, not just the Pope...




LadyEllen -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:41:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Ratzinger made comments condemning anti-semitism, but he's remained elusive over Nazism. While I agree that his past as a young member of the HY doesn't make him a Nazi, it still doesn't make it okay for him to remain silent over the issue - he has never condemned nazism publicly, and many people would appreciate a humble, public apology, or at least an explanation.

I understand his conscription in the HY could have been involuntary, but modern public life requires for important figures to clean the slate clean should there be any ambiguity about their past.

I was never a fan of Catholicism, and find the Papacy to be a relic of an ancient, less enlightened age, but at least John Paul II made public statements that condemned Nazism.




I agree KS. Problem for him being though, that talking about it all opens a huge can of worms - not necessarily for him, but certainly for the Vatican with regard to the Pope of the time (his actions were quite amenably collaborative, I understand) and the whole anti-semitic thing, which the nazis derived from their southern German Catholicism.

And because many Catholic priests were actively involved in resisting the nazis, the apparently amenable collaboration by the Vatican with naziism, raises issues about the authority of the Pope and the Vatican and the dislocation with its priests in the field. No leader wants to show off how impotent he is in controlling his organisation, least of all a leader who is meant to have divine authority which his organisation must obey.

Which brings us round neatly to the whole child abuse thing, in which the Pope and the Vatican are again hostages to their position and the itinerancy of their organisation's local representatives.

E




domahpet -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:42:06 AM)

here on the bay area news theyre making it seem such a happy
event, not mentioning anything so far besides the child molestation
issues while he was still on the plane...

btw chelle, i just love your avatar[:D]




popeye1250 -> RE: seperaton of church and state (4/16/2008 8:48:51 AM)

I just hope he doesn't try to "lecture" us about anything.
If he tries that shit then Bush needs to put him in his place.
Most people in the U.S. are not Catholic.




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