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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 8:52:51 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		Its about the role the Vatican played, not just his background. Although, I am not so sure that I'm willing to buy a whole lot into his necessity to distance himself. Better yet, I have some real doubts about it.   We are also dealing with the complicity of the Church, and the escape of Nazi war criminals working with Peron to Argentina.  The Utashi regime in Croatia which stated their racial policy "July 22, 1941: For the rest, Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies, we have 3 million bullets. We shall kill one third of all Serbs. We shall deport another third, and the rest of them will be forced to become Roman Catholic." P 201, the Real Odessa: Smuggling the Nazi's to Peron's Argentina.
The moral to the story is...he's just a whole can of worms.

(in reply to domahpet)
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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 8:53:18 AM   
domahpet


Posts: 1505
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Santa Rosa
Status: offline 		actualy, the US is the third largest nation of catholics, next to mexico and on other latin country i cant remember right now.
but id be happy to look it up again?

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 8:55:46 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		It took me too long to post, I so did not steal can of worms.  I'm crashing.

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 9:02:50 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

actualy, the US is the third largest nation of catholics, next to mexico and on other latin country i cant remember right now.
but id be happy to look it up again?


Dohmah, that's true but Catholics are a minority in this country.

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 9:24:57 AM   
domahpet


Posts: 1505
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Santa Rosa
Status: offline 		well math isnt my strong point so here the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Roman_Catholic_dioceses_of_the_United_States

and the other info:
http://news.id.msn.com/lifestyle/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1262315

25% is a pretty good sized chunk no?
and the Popes only been here twice, hmm

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 9:40:58 AM   
domahpet


Posts: 1505
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Santa Rosa
Status: offline 		this is turning into a really great thread, but my kids here to help me switch rooms
so ill be back in a bit.......

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~DJ domahpet~
*Love is giving someone the power to break your heart, but trusting them not to*

*crystal*
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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 10:01:37 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

well math isnt my strong point so here the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Roman_Catholic_dioceses_of_the_United_States

and the other info:
http://news.id.msn.com/lifestyle/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1262315

25% is a pretty good sized chunk no?
and the Popes only been here twice, hmm


I read the article, yes, that's about what I figured, 25% Catholic in the U.S.
More "unenrolled" probably "Evangelicals." (Unaffiliated)
Those churches seem to be growing in leaps and bounds with "Mega-Churches."
America has always mostly been a "Protestant" country.
It's funny that many Baptists consider themselves "Protestants", that would be impossable as there was a Baptist movement *before* the Catholic Church existed and Baptists were never a part of the Catholic Church so they couldn't have "Protested" ("Protest-ant") the Catholic Church by leaving it.
Maybe someone should start a thread about the "Protestant Reformation."
They were real big on teaching us about Martin Luther in elementary school in the 1950's in Massachusetts.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/16/2008 10:10:34 AM >

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 11:30:36 AM   
domahpet


Posts: 1505
Joined: 12/3/2006
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Status: offline 		well tell us more, send links

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*crystal*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLI12uN6k5k

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 11:57:14 AM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		He's the head of a "state" the size of few football fields, where women are officially second class citizens, the aristocracy is entirely male and selects its monarch without anything resembling universal suffrage. It is a state that interferes with the governments of real nations without justification or invitation. It is a state that still has to answer for war-crimes and genocide it has perpetrated and / or permitted.

I find it disturbing that the USA offered the Pope full honours as a head of state. I find the presence of the Vatican at the UN (even in the reduced, observer status it is restricted to) an insult to the very purpose of that institution. The Vatican should be ejected and sanctioned until it abandons its medieval practices and steps into the present. Until then, off to the kiddy table for you, Papa. The grown ups have work to do.


Z.

< Message edited by Zensee -- 4/16/2008 12:09:02 PM >

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 12:27:13 PM   
PrettyPaddles


Posts: 36
Joined: 4/13/2008
Status: offline 		Entry into the hitler youth was required Only for german nationals, which he was not. And even if that were not the case, according to records and his own statements, he joined a year before it became mandatory.  In fact, as a non german living in germany, to be a member of hitlers youth required direct sponsorship of an ss officer.     As in, he was friends with such an officer and asked that person to sponsor him to be allowed to join.   In addition, he graduated to tank crew a year earlier than he should, something that only happened to people on the "fast track" to ss ship, called the ss's darlings. The man helped load tank shells that were fired at OUR troops there to help rescue the people being held by the germans, and could only have been in that position if he was VERY favorable to the regime. 

< Message edited by PrettyPaddles -- 4/16/2008 12:30:10 PM >

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 12:27:52 PM   
domahpet


Posts: 1505
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Santa Rosa
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quote:

It is a state that interferes with the governments of real nations without justification or invitation. It is a state that still has to answer for war-crimes and genocide it has perpetrated and / or permitted.


sounds familiar


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Zeedaddys
~DJ domahpet~
*Love is giving someone the power to break your heart, but trusting them not to*

*crystal*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLI12uN6k5k

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 12:32:03 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

quote:

It is a state that interferes with the governments of real nations without justification or invitation. It is a state that still has to answer for war-crimes and genocide it has perpetrated and / or permitted.


sounds familiar



Oops! Did I splash a bit of that tar around. Sloppy me.

Z.


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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 12:47:28 PM   
domahpet


Posts: 1505
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Santa Rosa
Status: offline 		i got no prob with that, its the truth.
but this new Pope seems to be willing
to talk about some of the issues
the catholic church would rather avoid.


_____________________________

Zeedaddys
~DJ domahpet~
*Love is giving someone the power to break your heart, but trusting them not to*

*crystal*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLI12uN6k5k

(in reply to Zensee)
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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 12:53:36 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

He's the head of a "state" the size of few football fields, where women are officially second class citizens, the aristocracy is entirely male and selects its monarch without anything resembling universal suffrage. It is a state that interferes with the governments of real nations without justification or invitation. It is a state that still has to answer for war-crimes and genocide it has perpetrated and / or permitted.

I find it disturbing that the USA offered the Pope full honours as a head of state. I find the presence of the Vatican at the UN (even in the reduced, observer status it is restricted to) an insult to the very purpose of that institution. The Vatican should be ejected and sanctioned until it abandons its medieval practices and steps into the present. Until then, off to the kiddy table for you, Papa. The grown ups have work to do.


Z.


Zensee, I agree with you there with the exception that I don't see the "U.N." in any sort of positive way.
Two birds of a feather the Vatican and the "U.N."

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 1:01:09 PM   
MladyHathor


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Joined: 4/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I was thinking the same when I heard he was flying to the US earlier, like, 'what's his game' ?

Belief and politics needs to be as kept far apart as possible.



You may see him as a religious leader but he has huge political power and relationships world wide---would you feel the same if the Dalai Lama came to visit?

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 1:04:50 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Two birds of a feather the Vatican and the "U.N."



Huh... oh bollocks, nevermind.

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 1:10:34 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		General ...
 
First, it is separation of church and state.
 
Second, the key point is to keep the government from passing laws that deny people the right to worship as they see fit.
 
Last, the phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution.
 
There are no violations here.

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 1:18:08 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

Belief and politics needs to be as kept far apart as possible.

It's funny: When I first read this, I thought "Amen!" Enough with amending the Constitution to enshrine a particular view of marriage and let's learn everything we can from those stem cells.

On reflection, though, I wonder if things are quite so simple. The antislavery and civil rights movements come to mind. In those cases, belief spurred people to fight long and hard for what I see as good results. I honestly don't know if the battles would have been waged or won without the passion that grew out of belief. In the case of the civil rights movement, the church also provided a lot of organizational infrastructure (places to meet, webs of contacts) that might have been hard to create from scratch.

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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 1:51:14 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Popeye - we'll have to agree and disagree on those details then - as dysfunctional as the UN can be it is still better than the alternative.

DCnovice - I'd prefer to measure such movements by their actions rather than their beliefs. Meaning, let's se what practical solutions they provide rather than what dogma they try to impose.

Z.


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RE: seperaton of church and state - 4/16/2008 1:53:49 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		caitlyn:

There's more to it than that. The Constitution lays forth a plan that separates church and state so that there will be no official state religion nor any religious test to hold office. The bill of rights further recognizes the personal freedom to worship or not as one sees fit.

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