"Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (Full Version)

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Level -> "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 5:34:57 PM)

quote:

"Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" is a trenchant new film by actor/economist Ben Stein, the man first made famous in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off." He's now tackling with humorous dudgeon the classic example of ideological science, Darwinian evolution. Stein shows Darwinists insistently misrepresenting the scientific case against their theory. Where facts and reason might fail to persuade, personal attacks are employed, sometimes even by organizations supposedly committed to civil discourse.

When I was taught Darwin's theory in college more than four decades ago, it was represented as unassailable. But I also was taught in those days to respect academic freedom, which is a good standard to apply in any field. In the 1990s, before intelligent design was added to the ideas studied at Discovery Institute, I learned about an assault on the academic freedom of Dean Kenyon, a biologist and author at San Francisco State University who had come to view Darwin's theory as flawed. At first, the effort to restrain him from teaching seemed like just another skirmish over political correctness.

Then, following the Kenyon case, I began to examine the account of life's development that I once had been taught so dogmatically. One after another of the demonstrations of the theory that supposedly were "certain" and "conclusive" when I was a student — such as Ernst Haeckel's embryo drawings that showed various animals looking almost identical in the earliest stages of life — have been abandoned or replaced. What has not changed is the dogmatism.


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2004353967_chapman17.html




Real_Trouble -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 5:41:01 PM)

I am going to decline to step into this, because it will quickly spiral out of control and turn into a flame war, except to state:

One of the most important questions to ask when someone is suggesting that any field is scientific (in this case, be it the theory of evolution or intelligent design) is "can you test this, and is it falsifiable"?

If someone cannot present a criteria for falsfiability, and cannot design experiments to test these criteria, then what is being done is not science.  There are some very interesting writings by people like Hume, Popper, and Bacon on this very subject.  I believe the technical field is loosely referred to as "philosophy of science", but that's a pretty broad term.

Point is, if we're going to debate this or comment on it, can we at least do so intelligently ourselves?

I've seen enough wild-assed uninformed bullshit about this topic all around to last several lifetimes already.




thornhappy -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 5:44:25 PM)

I groaned when I read about this movie, especially since they pick 2 guys who could...well...be described as asshats on the evolution side.

For a look at the misconceptions and a look at what happened to the "expelled", check out this link.

General science knowledge in our society is low (our science education sucks) and I can't see how this movie would make anything better.

thornhappy




Sanity -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 5:45:52 PM)

I think this might be the only area where Rule and I agree on anything because I really think that E.T. brough life to this planet. Tended to it, like a garden and a sanctuary in a grand effort to preserve and protect life itself.




Zensee -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 5:51:06 PM)

And who made ET?


Z.





Gemini1766 -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 5:56:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

And who made ET?


Z.


I did.




Sanity -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 5:59:46 PM)

Oddsmakers did.

There are better odds of intelligent life coming from rock soup if you spread the theory of its origin over a wider area. When it starts to get as big as the cosmos, almost anything seems possible.

One planet? Not so much.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

And who made ET?


Z.






Zensee -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 6:33:34 PM)

Now I remember the reek of this "film" - Before you go rushing out to applaud it (or block book a theatre for your group) consider the experience of P.Z. Myers at the duplicitous hands of the producers of this festival of distortions.

In short, having tricked him into an interview under false pretenses, they edit his responses to fit their thesis and drop them into the real film. Then they promote the fake film as a confrontation of himself, Dawkins and other similarly tricked  participants. If this is any indication of their integrity and intellectual honesty we can expect a propaganda piece long on accusation and void of science.

If you read nothing else, skip to the bit where Myers is expelled from the movie's premiere, just for showing up - while the zealous producers allow his guest, Richard Dawkins into the screening. Dawkins proceeds to rip a strip off the producers in the post show Q&A, not only for their duplicity in gathering the footage used, but for their own expulsion of a critic of their dogma. LMFAO!!

Talk about 'hoist on their own petard.

How do I spell hypocrite? B E N  S T E I N.


Z.






ownedgirlie -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 6:47:23 PM)

I love Ben Stein.  I'll see it simply because he's behind it.  He's brilliant and funny and isn't afraid to say it as he sees it.  Thanks for the info, Level!




FirmhandKY -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 6:53:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Now I remember the reek of this "film" - Before you go rushing out to applaud it (or block book a theatre for your group) consider the experience of P.Z. Myers at the duplicitous hands of the producers of this festival of distortions.

In short, having tricked him into an interview under false pretenses, they edit his responses to fit their thesis and drop them into the real film. Then they promote the fake film as a confrontation of himself, Dawkins and other similarly tricked  participants. If this is any indication of their integrity and intellectual honesty we can expect a propaganda piece long on accusation and void of science.

If you read nothing else, skip to the bit where Myers is expelled from the movie's premiere, just for showing up - while the zealous producers allow his guest, Richard Dawkins into the screening. Dawkins proceeds to rip a strip off the producers in the post show Q&A, not only for their duplicity in gathering the footage used, but for their own expulsion of a critic of their dogma. LMFAO!!

Talk about 'hoist on their own petard.

How do I spell hypocrite? B E N  S T E I N.


Z.





Z,

Not arguing against your points, because I have zero knowledge of this film and the events surrounding it (yet).

However, I couldn't but help find humor that you seem to be saying the same thing about this film, that many on the "right" side said about Michael Moore's films ...

There is some symmetry here. [:)]

Firm




Real_Trouble -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 7:00:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I love Ben Stein.  I'll see it simply because he's behind it.  He's brilliant and funny and isn't afraid to say it as he sees it.  Thanks for the info, Level!


I will step in here and say that, as an economist, the way Ben Stein sees it is often technically referred to as "wrong".

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/business/yourmoney/12every.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

For instance, there is Ben Stein, on August 12, 2007, explaining calmly that subprime will not be a problem, that the credit markets will not lock up, and that the doomsayers are all wrong.

I agree that he's funny, but he's also often wrong.  You should consider that when you read or watch anything involving him; it's not a reason to believe or disbelieve a point of view, but it's sure a reason to doubt his account in particular.




ownedgirlie -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 7:06:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble
I agree that he's funny, but he's also often wrong.  You should consider that when you read or watch anything involving him; it's not a reason to believe or disbelieve a point of view, but it's sure a reason to doubt his account in particular.



He was rarely wrong on Win Ben Stein's Money!!  [8D]




DesertRat -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 7:16:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Not arguing against your points, because I have zero knowledge of this film and the events surrounding it (yet).

However, I couldn't but help find humor that you seem to be saying the same thing about this film, that many on the "right" side said about Michael Moore's films ...

There is some symmetry here. [:)]


I agree. I'm very VERY left-wing and have always considered Michael Moore an embarrassment. He raises good issues, make good points but does it in such a juvenile way that it hurts to watch him. Additionally, he distorts and spins facts to achieve the desired effect. So, yeah, there's symmetry.

Yep...politics in America...arrgh




domiguy -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 7:40:16 PM)

I have always enjoyed Ben.

I do dig someone that has the ability to deliver their message with intelligence and enthusiasm.

I don't know anything about the making of this film...Hopefully it is based on enough facts to make for an interesting dialogue.

The problem I have with evolution, which isn't much, does have to do with how life began. There are some obvious leaps that evolution has to take to get to "us."


But on the whole it seems to work and holds up rather well. I don't find the subject matter to be so polarizing.

Whether a gazillion years ago we were created by some random act, aliens or "GOD" doesn't seem to matter much today. Either way it appears that which ever entity did the deed they had the same lack of follow through.
.




Zensee -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 8:21:35 PM)

Sorry but I had to share this - http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?id=986

It's a footnote link from the annotated version of the editorial piece that appears in the first post.

Let's see - make a list of fascinating things in nature and simply claim their very presence is proof of an intelligence behind them. Brilliant logic Casey Luskin (except it's a circular argument). With quality evidence like this those pesky atheists will be on the ropes in no time.


Z.




SugarMyChurro -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 8:41:51 PM)

Ignorance on parade.

It's just another great day in the U.S.A.!

[8|]

Everything you wrote flew over a multitude of heads, Zensee. Whooosh!

And there was much rejoicing...




Real_Trouble -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 9:14:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Sorry but I had to share this - http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?id=986

It's a footnote link from the annotated version of the editorial piece that appears in the first post.

Let's see - make a list of fascinating things in nature and simply claim their very presence is proof of an intelligence behind them. Brilliant logic Casey Luskin (except it's a circular argument). With quality evidence like this those pesky atheists will be on the ropes in no time.


Z.



This brings to mind those infamous quotes about Dover being "evolution's waterloo".

The irony here, to me at least, is the false dilemma they attempt to create.  The Discovery Institute in particular attempts to target the least personable and most virulent atheists they can, completely ignoring the large majority of christian scientists who believe in both God and evolution.

I wonder why that is?




Zensee -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/17/2008 9:44:28 PM)

Exactly, Real. IDers could easily claim evolution through mutation and natural selection as the method of a designer - way better than prototyping each species. Shows greater intelligence than the latter...

So actual intelligence is not their agenda, apparently.

And let's say irrefutable proof of ID was found in earthly life forms - that just defers the question of how it all began - it doesn't answer it. As I asked before - who made ET?

Sigh!


Z.




meatcleaver -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/18/2008 1:18:58 AM)

Only in the USA. At times it just doesn't seem real that a country so in the for front of science can produce such stupid people with such ignorant ideas.




RealityLicks -> RE: "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (4/18/2008 1:22:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

As I asked before - who made ET?



Z.



I think it was Steven Spielberg.  He is our creator.




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