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SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 7:48:25 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Fargle started a thread a week or so ago titled "INSIGNIFICANT Progress..." - in which I made the statement that I thought things were going pretty good in Iraq, overall.

Of course, no one asked me to explain, or justify my comment (nor did I really expect them to).  They simply blindly attacked, making all kinds of assumptions, and pigeon-holing any comment that they didn't agree with as somehow supporting murder, advocating preemptive wars, and all kinds of things that they find morally questionable.

Consider this a partial response to the unasked question about why " I think things are going pretty good, overall, in Iraq."

Basra residents welcome Iraq army crackdown
"I am very happy about the situation right now. The deployment of the Iraqi army has made gunmen and gangsters disappear from the streets," said court employee Mahdi Fallah, 42.

"The gangs were controlling the ports and smuggling oil. Now the ports are back in government hands. Everything in Basra is better than before."

Taxi driver Samir Hashim, 35, said he now felt safer driving through the city's streets and was willing to put up with the traffic jams caused by the many security checkpoints.

"We feel secure. Assassinations have ended, organised crime is finished and armed groups are no longer on the streets," said Hashim.

"I think Basra will be the best city in Iraq," he added optimistically. "We are finally beginning to feel there is law in Basra."

"We feel comfortable and safe and secure," said civil servant Alah Mustapha.

"The situation in Basra is stable. The Iraqi army controls the city and there are no longer armed groups on the streets."

The Iraqi security operations have not been without severe problems, and on Sunday 1,300 police and soldiers were sacked for failing to do their duty during the assault, which began on March 25 under orders of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki.

Iraqi military officers have also come under fire from their coalition force allies for launching the operations without adequate preparation, with American commander in Iraq General David Petraeus saying Maliki had disregarded US advice to delay the assault.

Of course, you won't hear about much of this in the US media, which seems to have it's own narrative about the entire conflict.  In fact, most of you probably remember little about the southern battles, other than the feelings that US reporting may have left you of failure, disaster and death.

But here are some important facts, all that bode well for the future of Iraq:

1. One of the last (if not the last) major armed forces that is against the freely elected government of Iraq has been serious compromised, if not permanently crippled.

2. The action was taken by the Iraq Prime Minister (who is Shia) against a Shia group.

3.  It was planned and executed without US approval (as to the timing, anyway).

4.  The majority of the fighting was done by Iraqi security forces.

5.  The Iraqi forces who did not perform well were sacked (which leads to the conclusion that discipline and operational success are taken seriously by an Arab army - a very unusual occurrence in the ME) which bodes well for the future performance of the nation's security forces.

6.  The people of Basra and the south are happy with the results.

7.  The entire operation shows a strengthening of the political will of the national government.

8.  The Iranian support for the militia turns out to have been a negative, overall, politically, and not to have been particularly helpful to the militia during the fighting.  This points to the possibility that the worriyabout Iranian influence in the future of Iraq may be over-estimated.

Overall, while the US media has protrayed this entire operation as another failure, almost everything that I see about it points to just the opposite.

Are things going well in Iraq?

Seems to me, while the final result is still open to debate, there are a lot of positives in the mix.  More than ever before.

Firm

PS.  Just so someone doesn't think that I believe it is over, I also think that the level of violence will likely escalate over the next few months, and peak just before the US elections.  Depending on who wins the US elections, and what their policies will be for US involvement in Iraq will determine the level of violence after that.

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 8:27:45 AM   
NorthernGent


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Firm, one of your previous comments went something like this "we're over there because we have to be; ultimately, it's them or us".

So, in this context, is there any possible scenario where you wouldn't consider the American occupation to be a success?

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 9:03:04 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Firm, one of your previous comments went something like this "we're over there because we have to be; ultimately, it's them or us".

You'd have to show me where I said that, so I'd have the context.

Sorry about the additional work that would require, but the context would be important.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

So, in this context, is there any possible scenario where you wouldn't consider the American occupation to be a success?


Certainly.  Several scenarios could stil develop.

The worst is that we withdraw, and the Iraq government is unable to maintain order, and AQ comes back and uses Iraq as a training ground or successfully declares it a "caliphate" , much as the Taliban did in Afghanistan.

Firm


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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 9:05:12 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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To all international readers:

Yes, half of the people in the states are as you see here. Sad, huh?


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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 9:11:36 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Sorry about the additional work that would require, but the context would be important.



'No addtional work is required.

The exchange was brief: I asked, "how can you justify the occupation of Iraq?"; you replied, "it's them or us; ultimately, human experience is a battle for survival".

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Certainly.  Several scenarios could stil develop.

The worst is that we withdraw, and the Iraq government is unable to maintain order, and AQ comes back and uses Iraq as a training ground or successfully declares it a "caliphate" , much as the Taliban did in Afghanistan.

Firm



Crossed wires, Firm.

The operative word was/is occupation. For clarity's sake, is there any scenario where the American occupation wouldn't be considered a success by you; that is, any scenario that doesn't meat your end goal of "the battle for survival"?

Edited for quotes.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/19/2008 9:13:26 AM >


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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 9:17:42 AM   
FirmhandKY


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You'll have to give me a link to our exchange NG.

We see the world very differently.  I wish to ensure that your interpretation is close to my interpretation of the exchange, otherwise I am allowing you to frame the debate.

Firm




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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 9:19:49 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

To all international readers:

Yes, half of the people in the states are as you see here. Sad, huh?


Other than attempting to insult me, do you have anything of value to add to the discussion, or are you simply engaging in a drive by bullshit personal attack?

Firm


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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 9:26:04 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You'll have to give me a link to our exchange NG.

We see the world very differently.  I wish to ensure that your interpretation is close to my interpretation of the exchange, otherwise I am allowing you to frame the debate.

Firm



1) Do you think you need to change the Iraqis' way of thinking to ensure the safety of Americans? i.e. impose democracy?
2) Do you believe walking away is an option in the event democracy hasn't been imposed?
3) What is your end objective in Iraq?

These questions are on topic: determining your objectives will allow for an informed reply on "significant progress". 

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 9:26:08 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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Are you a warmonger?

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 9:33:32 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Are you a warmonger?


Still trying to insult me, huh?

Careful, Mod 11 has been on the warpath lately, ya know.

Define "warmonger" as you mean it, please.

Firm


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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 9:46:08 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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One who advocates or attempts to stir up war.

What else? It's not an insult if it's demonstrably true.

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 9:56:45 AM   
FirmhandKY


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NG,

You are attributing words and thoughts to me that I'm not sure were said, or are in context.

For example you say that the "operative word is occupation" when I did not use that word at all.

Another example is this "battle for survival" thing.

Not trying to be difficult, or avoid a discussion, but I'd really like to see where I said such things, and the context in which they were said.

As for you next post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

1) Do you think you need to change the Iraqis' way of thinking to ensure the safety of Americans? i.e. impose democracy?
2) Do you believe walking away is an option in the event democracy hasn't been imposed?
3) What is your end objective in Iraq?

These questions are on topic: determining your objectives will allow for an informed reply on "significant progress".


You are wanting simplistic answers to complex questions, but I'll try to give you a taste:

 1) Do you think you need to change the Iraqis' way of thinking to ensure the safety of Americans? i.e. impose democracy?

A: I don't think "changing the Iraqis' way of thinking" needs to be changed at all, really.  What needed to be changed was the social and political framework in which they lived their lives.

I also don't think that even that will "ensure" the safety of Americans.   What I do think is that the ME, overall, is/has been dysfunctional and dangerous - in the long run - to Western style's of thought, political belief, and philosophies.

"Impose" democracy?  Interesting question.  Can one "impose" freedom?  (Assuming one equates democracy with freedom).

2) Do you believe walking away is an option in the event democracy hasn't been imposed?

Define "democracy".

I believe that walking away before a reasonably stable government and society is safely functioning is dangerous to the stability of Iraq, the ME, and ultimately to the US - and even more importantly - to Europe.

3) What is your end objective in Iraq?

The end objective is to change the understanding and aspirations of what is possible for all Arab and/or ME peoples.  To allow them a greater degree of self-actualization than has heretofore been possible in their societies and nations.

Firm

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 10:06:39 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

One who advocates or attempts to stir up war.

What else? It's not an insult if it's demonstrably true.


No, what you are attempting to do is define the words, and the debate to put anyone who disagrees with you on a morally indefensible position, without a discussion of the merits of their ideas.

In other words, you are attempting to use an ad hominen attack to stifle opinions you disagree with, rather than engage them on the merits of their thoughts.

The term "warmonger" is a pejorative term, as you well know:
WarmongerA warmonger is, pejoratively, someone who is anxious to encourage a people or nation to go to war. It is often used to describe militaristic leaders, or mercenaries, commonly with the implication that they either may have selfish motives for encouraging war, or may actually enjoy war.

So ... am I anxious to encourage a people or nation to go to war?  No.

Do I have selfish motives for encouraging war?  Not really, unless you conside desiring peace on my terms, rather than fear, terror and enslavement as "selfish".

Do I actually enjoy war?  No.

So ... in answer to the question that you really didn't see actually being answered .. No, I'm not a warmonger.

Try arguing and discussing without personal attacks, please.

Firm


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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 10:23:34 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

2) Do you believe walking away is an option in the event democracy hasn't been imposed?

Define "democracy".

I believe that walking away before a reasonably stable government and society is safely functioning is dangerous to the stability of Iraq, the ME, and ultimately to the US - and even more importantly - to Europe.

3) What is your end objective in Iraq?

The end objective is to change the understanding and aspirations of what is possible for all Arab and/or ME peoples.  To allow them a greater degree of self-actualization than has heretofore been possible in their societies and nations.

Firm


The point I'm getting at is this: your stated objectives (above) lead me to believe that you will always deem a continued presence to be successful (on balance); in other words, within the framework of your objectives, you'll always suggest "this is the price we pay for the end goal" and that the end goal renders all actions to be the road to success. 

You want to change them to be like you - "self-actualisation" on your terms - and you believe a continued presence is justified in order to save various places. Within the framework of your objectives, you will always believe that actions in Iraq are justified and successful.

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 10:34:18 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The point I'm getting at is this: your stated objectives (above) lead me to believe that you will always deem a continued presence to be successful (on balance); in other words, within the framework of your objectives, you'll always suggest "this is the price we pay for the end goal" and that the end goal renders all actions to be the road to success. 

You want to change them to be like you - "self-actualisation" on your terms - and you believe a continued presence is justified in order to save various places. Within the framework of your objectives, you will always believe that actions in Iraq are justified and successful.


You are certainly putting a lot of words in my mouth NG.  Do I even need to post?

Firm


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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 10:40:04 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You are certainly putting a lot of words in my mouth NG.  Do I even need to post?

Firm



Feel free to reply, Firm. Is there any set of events (within the realms of realism) that you would consider to be unsuccessful (within the borders of a continued presence)?

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 11:21:44 AM   
meatcleaver


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If imposing American power in the region was the goal, the invasion has been rather insignificant in its progress. America is hated more than ever in the ME apart from the elite in the US pay and 150,000 American troops are bogged down and Iran has more influence than ever in the region now its main rival has been removed from the equation by the US. The other flaw in the American plan is what the Nobel Prize winner Joseph Stiglitz pointed out, if Bush wanted to fight a war, he should have raised taxes to pay for it not leave future generations with the burden of his foreign policy mistakes. The state of the US economy has reduced US influence abroad. Fucked policy by the right all round.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/19/2008 11:22:50 AM >


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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 11:25:26 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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Mine was also pulled from an ordinary dictionary. I'll give the cite this time:

war·mon·ger (wôr?mung´g?r, -mong´-) noun
One who advocates or attempts to stir up war.
— war?mon´ger·ing adjective & noun

Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from Lernout & Hauspie Speech Products N.V., further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

Now some of that may not paste correctly given the special characters, but the rest should be fine.

I just think it's odd that you come here to talk about how great it is that we are occupying Iraq as an invading force, but dislike being called a warmonger when it is factually correct. It seems to me that you are the one with the problem. Your advocacy of this war puts the blood of thousands on your hands. You agree wholly with every atrocity americans commit over there because you support the war itself, and war is an atrocity.


< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 4/19/2008 11:26:04 AM >

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 1:02:31 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Of course, no one asked me to explain, or justify my comment (nor did I really expect them to). They simply blindly attacked, making all kinds of assumptions, and pigeon-holing any comment that they didn't agree with as somehow supporting murder, advocating preemptive wars, and all kinds of things that they find morally questionable.


Firmhand you silly goose. You should know better than to contradict your intellectual and moral superiors. Go back to clinging to your guns and religion.

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/19/2008 1:21:40 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

You agree wholly with every atrocity americans commit over there because you support the war itself, and war is an atrocity.



Now that is a hell of a leap.

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