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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/22/2008 6:21:29 PM   
Zensee


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OK if the challenge is specific to the short range, I'll stick with my choice of compressed air and electricity as alternate motor technologies and hydrogen and bio-methane for replacement fuels for internal combustion engines.

Still, thinking outside the tank is always good, even for the short term. You might be missing some eloquent solution just beyond the veil.

There was a commuter system I heard described a number of years ago on the radio (can't find anything about it online yet). It had a powered, overhead trackway and computer dispatched cars. It could learn the commuter usage patterns and, for instance, assemble cars in the suburbs for the morning commute, then muster them downtown for the after work rush or muster cars by special order in anticipation of large events like concerts and games. It could adjust individual routes to avoid trouble spots or to suit rider preferences (take the scenic route).

Because the weight of the vehicles was very low compared to a train, the tolerances and demands on the trackway were greatly reduced making their construction much simpler and more robust.

Price per mile, including the cars, stations, power supply, maintenance yards etc. was less than half the cost per mile of a traditional road.


Z.


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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/22/2008 6:52:03 PM   
CraZYWiLLiE


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I am partial to the tesla roadster, it is a bit pricy, but it will smoke alot of sports cars, and still 200 mile range.

I am all for building more nuke power plants, use whipp for the waste so we dont have to pay taxes.

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/22/2008 7:11:11 PM   
Termyn8or


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All this is fine and good, but I have found another box in which to think.

With Hippie's statement and the following banter, I thought of something off the wall. And mean this has never even seen the wall. Remember Gilligan's Island ? In some episodes there is a human powered car. Undoubtedly built by the professor, Gilligan drove the Howells around in it at times.

OK, so much for fiction, but there were some HPVs developed over the years. Aerodynamically shaped and lightweight, I guess you could do about 30MPH or so in them. That would be adequate for beating around town. I know a couple of people who would use them if they were available and somehow made at least a bit safe for the roads. I might even consider it myself.

When I go to work I have my keys, lighter, cigarettes and wallet. There is no reason for me to use an automobile or truck for this, but for the safety factor.

For a time I took a bus, which required a transfer downtown, and what did I see ? Pizza delivery on bicycles.

My point is that there are alot of options that alot of people do not even consider.

I hate to go simplistic like this after all these newfangled notions, but who has really thought about HPVs in a more advanced way ? Your notion of it is likely akin to a bicycle, but come on people we can do better than that. Consider this :

You are sitting at a red light but you keep pedaling, this stores energy somehow. It can be pneumatic, or a sort of hydraulic accumulator (such as used for power brakes on a diesel car). Hell it could even be a big spring, like the mainspring of a clock. (yes, there were clocks before electronics).

Some way to store the energy that is efficient, then it can be released in a controlled manner, between a CVT to give adequate acceleration and then to just coast. To advance the design, braking would be regenerative, whatever the method of storage employed.

Regenerative braking is something that cannot be done with an internal combustion engine, hands down. That comes back to the engine vs motor debate. Just to touch on that, if the human in such a vehicle is the power source, he is an engine. You cannot pedal his legs backwards and have hime suck waste up the ass and throw up good food. Likewise you cannot shove exhaust gases up the tailpipe of a car and expect it to refill it's fuel tank.

I guess it would be an engine powered motor then. Because although there is still a failsafe braking system, when the brakes are just tapped to slow down, the vehicle's kinetic energy is converted back to potential energy by the CVT.

Think of it though, your kids want to go for a ride, make them go pedal the car. Of course it does not move without the keys, but they can charge the batteries, the tank or the spring, whichever it is. The charge level of whatever it is is indicated by a guage of some sort on the dash.

All of this technology already exists, it has not been put to use because economically it just doesn't pay, for now. But what happens when oil is two hundred bucks a barrel ?

I know that this may smack just a bit of romanticism, but I highly suggest that we look for answers in the past, in older technology. I think people were smarter back then, and that the vast amount of technology is actually not helping people's creativity, I think it is stifling it.

Everybody today seems to want huge machines that cost millions of dollars, while in reality they could've solved the problem for a couple grand. People just love to use high tech to solve low tech problems. Put it this way; I know there are other issues, but we are talking mainly about transportation. Other problems are abound of course but this one is the worst of them at the moment.

But what I want to say is that rebels, immigrants, slaves, governors, criminals all made it to this country without the advent of even the internal combustion engine. What does that tell us ? Even with all these advancements we are having problems. They made it somehow.

Remember the KISS theory. Take the example of the central AC. Take an absoption type refrigeration system and make it solar powered. Then take a Stirling cycle engine and, wait now, don't generate electricity with it unless there is a surplus, take and couple that shaft straight to the blower. HA, one less conversion, no wait actually two. See what I mean by KISS ?

It is not that nobody is thinking about this, but I think the thinking is not the best.

T

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/22/2008 7:12:28 PM   
Zensee


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Yeah nukes - let our great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandchildren worry about the clean up.

And are we talking nuclear powered cars here? I mean, collisions are already harmful enough without fallout being added to the mix. Besides we already have clean nuclear power - it's called the SUN.


Z.


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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/22/2008 8:31:18 PM   
slavegirljoy


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First choice, for me, is to use my own energy to get me from point A to point B, either by bicycle or by foot. 
 
Of course, that's not always practical.
 
So, my second choice would be to go by horse, horse and buggy, horse-driven coach, etc. 
 
And, if that isn't feasible, then i would like to see vehicles that are powered by a fuel made from garbage.  That and, i would like to see an expanded public transportation system available in the outlying areas to connect the suburbs with the cities.
 
joy
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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/22/2008 8:36:02 PM   
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This gets my vote.

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/22/2008 9:08:49 PM   
Rule


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The problem with bicycles is that any energy generating and storage device has weight, which has to be transported even when it does not contribute to the locomotion. I recall that the BBC once had a programm about such bike devices, perchance in Tomorrows World? None of them made it. I suppose that a compressed air device on a bike is perhaps most practical, provided there are charging points along the way (like a windmill compressing air).

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/23/2008 7:11:39 PM   
TheHeretic


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      Zensee.  My enthusiasm for the compressed air car dropped considerably when I discovered the tank is pressurized to greater than 4000 psi.  I've witnessed the effects of cracked valve on a helium tank with a mere 150 psi.  That was scary and destructive.  I've read that the carbon fiber tanks on these are specially constructed not to explode into shrapnel, but that isn't a lot of comfort.  I don't know that a car could actually imitate the behavior of a balloon blown up and released.  Maybe in a Bruckheimer summer movie.  The potential would certainly exist for that car to become 2000 lbs of death from above for wherever it lands.  4000-4500 psi???  The air tank could punt that car like a football (ok.  exaggeration probably.  a badly kicked football.).

      What we have to remember is that we are going to put this technology into the hands of millions of IDIOTS.  Drunks, teen-agers, elderly drivers, angry, hungry, lonely, tired, distracted, every variety of asshole we see (or are) on the road, will be using whatever technologies successfully emerge.


       The sci-fi, techno-geek in me loves the idea of the independent car commuter system you describe, but the socio-cynic has a lot of questions.  Unless every travel unit of passengers gets a private car, what do we have for security?   It sounds like a wet-dream for criminal predators otherwise.  Muggers, rapists, and scary panhandlers would love automated cars.  If they are private to a travel unit, how will we prevent vandalism?  Not just the grafitti and knifework of a typical city bus, mind you.  Who cleans up the abandoned condoms, used drug needles, piles of shit from the homeless who find a warm place to leave it?  What does that do to the cost?

        Shall we easily resolve all that with security cameras?  Maybe a button in the control room that locks the doors, and takes the car to the nearest police station?  Constitutional issues easily dealt with by a waiver of civil rights when entering the vehicle, just like we have at the airport?

        When we set out to make big changes, or address large problems, it's easy to focus on an issue, seperate from the big picture.  Hence the Law of Unintended Consequences.  If a system will bring new problems that can only be remedied by moving us further into a police state, I'm going to pass.

        But it does sound pretty damn cool.

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/23/2008 7:17:02 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

This gets my vote.



           I think that's the very same engine I had in an '89 Korean built compact.

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/23/2008 7:32:55 PM   
Termyn8or


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Heretic, it seems good engineeering should be able to fix those problems, but then sometimes I think we should not worry about it and just do it.

T

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/23/2008 7:39:35 PM   
MissSCD


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Horse.
 
SCD

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/23/2008 7:49:38 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Heretic, it seems good engineeering should be able to fix those problems, but then sometimes I think we should not worry about it and just do it.

T



         That's how we achieved the 3rd and 4th generations of a permanent welfare underclass when we set out to fix poverty.  Ever watch World's Wildest Police Chases?  That's the standard that would have to be met by those engineers. 

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/23/2008 8:13:51 PM   
MissSCD


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I still want my flying car like in the Jetsons. That would be so cool, and on a serious note has anyone thought of creating a National Transportation System like in New York or other big cities?
Gas just went up ten cents here.  It is $3.39.  I have customers telling me they are going to have to quit doing their nails and other luxuries because of this.  I am thinking along the same thing.
Nail Salons will be hit bad.   Our store sales are very down.
It is not a good situation for all, and something needs to be done.
What is Bush doing?   Sitting there in the White House beginning to write his book, "How to screw America!"  At least Clinton found a cute woman. Maybe that is why the economy was so good under him.
 
Regards, MissSCD
 

 
 

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/23/2008 8:44:58 PM   
shallowdeep


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An attempt to split up transportation fuel alternatives based on energy source, plus some thoughts.

  1. The Status Quo (e.g. petroleum derivatives)
    Cons:
    • Emissions, both particulate and carbon.
    • Limited, largely foreign supply.
    • Rising costs.
    Pros:
    • High energy density.
    • No infrastructure changes needed.

    Thoughts: The sooner we can get off oil, the better.

  2. Alternative Fossil Fuels (e.g. methane, synthetic coal gases)
    Cons:
    • Lower energy density.
    • Same carbon emission problems.
    Pros:
    • Lower particulate emissions.
    • Larger domestic supply, possibly cheaper.

    Thoughts: They're not solving the problem. At best a limited stop-gap.

  3. Crops Grown Expressly for Energy (e.g. ethanol, methanol, biodiesel, etc.)
    Cons:
    • It may not be environmentally friendly. Trying to analyze a complex system's energy use is difficult, and it's a relatively new field with the available empirical data limited in both quantity and quality. The result is assumptions and simplifications that produce conflicting estimates and academic bickering. For instance, corn ethanol production has ranges for a net energy value from around 75% (critics like Pimentel) to 167% (USDA). Even if a biofuel has a positive energy return, that may well be lost when considering sustainability issues and the fact it's likely being burned in an internal combustion engine. Patzek, for instance, argues a gallon of corn ethanol burned in an engine returns only 1/7th of the energy that went into making it as usable work. Some biofuels may be better than others, but this really is the sort of analysis that needs to be carefully considered before making energy policy. At present there is at least some support for the idea that biofuels may be an energy sink rather than source. I found this interview with Pimentel interesting.
    • Use of relatively scarce crop (or arable) land for energy production is arguably a misallocation of resources.
    • There isn't enough available. Assuming there are biofuels with significant positive net energy returns, there still isn't enough land to meet current US transportation energy needs. It might be part of the solution, but it's never going to be the "one" fuel.
    • The reason for the last point is that plants aren't all that efficient. They only convert about 0.1% of solar energy into potentially usable chemical energy. Even cheap photovoltaics are much more efficient, which raises the question: even if biofuels prove workable, might there be a better approach?
    Pros:
    • Even if critics are right, and biofuels don't have positive net energy values, it still helps kick foreign oil dependence. The energy source essentially becomes coal and natural gas, with all the negatives those entail, but it's a domestic source. Some, including the USDA (see the 'Energy Balance Issue' section of this document), argue that this may make it worth pursuing regardless of environmental issues.
    • A potentially lower cost, basically related to the above point. As oil prices increase, the price differential translates into profit for agriculture, and maybe even some consumer savings.
    • Little infrastructure change is required to accommodate it.

    Thoughts: Some biofuel systems may have some potential, but they need more careful analysis. Their current supplementary role may expand, but they'll never make a primary fuel source. Corn ethanol is probably currently a bad idea.

  4. Waste Materials (e.g. used frying oil, methane from manure, etc.)
    Cons:
    • Wastes useable as fuels only exist in limited quantities and are wholly insufficient for meeting current transport energy needs.
    • In some cases they may not burn as cleanly as conventional alternatives.
    Pros:
    • Relatively cheap, as it's still an underutilized resource.
    • Helps solve a waste problem.

    Thoughts: If you can make it work, go for it, but it's never going to be more than a small niche.

  5. Rechargeable Energy Storage (e.g. hydrogen, batteries, compressed air, solid oxides, etc.)
    Cons:
    • New infrastructure may be required.
    • New power generation sources will be needed.
    • At best, the method is only as environmentally friendly as the power source.
    Pros:
    • Decouples transportation energy from any particular fuel source.
    • Potentially zero harmful emissions.
    • Potentially no reliance on foreign energy sources.

    Thoughts: This is where we should be headed. Nothing in this category is a fuel source per se, so it really requires two further discussions:
    1. How efficient is each method at storing and recovering energy, how economical, how safe?
    2. What can be done to get a cheap, clean, and sufficient power source (probably in terms of our electrical generation infrastructure)?

  6. Human and Animal Power (e.g. walking, biking, dwarf hamsters, etc.)
    Cons:
    • The obvious cons are limits on convenience, range, speed, and capacity.
    • The less obvious con is the enormous energy inefficiency. Other fuels are cheap compared to food, and humans aren't particularly efficient at turning food into mechanical work. The idea that biking, for instance, is carbon neutral or even environmentally friendly (on a per energy expended basis) isn't true in our modern world. Once you factor in the energy spent to grow, harvest, transport, clean, refrigerate and cook it you were probably better off using gas. Some animal/feed combinations would be better.
    Pros:
    • Health benefits. If we all walked or biked when it was practical, everyone, maybe excepting the medical industry, would be better off.
    • The inefficiency of food as fuel gives an incentive to conserve. A 30 pound bike going 5 miles can come out ahead of a 3000 pound car going 50 miles pretty easily, even accounting for inefficient use of energy. So, in practice, it tends to be a good choice.

    Thoughts: When practical, go for it but, realistically, another fuel is needed.

The last point, about the tendency to conserve with human powered transport, raises a question. How important is the choice of fuel to the transportation energy problem?

The fuel obviously matters and, in the best case, could be made essentially environmentally neutral. But that utopia is, unfortunately, still at least a few decades off in practice. However, there is quite a bit that could be done with conservation that could make that goal easier to achieve by lowering the energy required – and conservation should play into discussions about transportation energy policy.

Lighter vehicles, increased use of hybrids, more (and better) public transportation, better thought out communities that reduce required travel distances, and automated control of traffic are all things that I think could have an impact in the same time frame it will take to switch over to a truly clean fuel. Why have we all become so attached to a system that results in 6 million accidents, 3 million injuries, and over 40,000 deaths annually anyway? There's room for improvement in more than one way.

[edited to clarify one point]

< Message edited by shallowdeep -- 4/23/2008 8:57:22 PM >

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/23/2008 9:58:21 PM   
TheHeretic


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       Great summary and comments, Shal.  Thanks.   Perhaps a bit of glossing over on the safety questions, maybe?

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 4/23/2008 9:59:57 PM >


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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/26/2008 4:00:11 PM   
Vendaval


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What I see happening is a move away from a fuel monopoly (oil) and a move toward many different choices for consumers.
 
California leads the nation in the number of hybrid cars.  Utah has the highest number of cars running on (CNG)compressed natural gas.  No one solution is going to work in all locations due to climate and available resources. 
 
Solar energy for heating and suppling electricity for buildings will do well in the South West, not so good in the Pacific Northwest.  Wind and hydroelectric power are better choices in a cold, foggy coastal area.
 
We need to keep improving the quality of alternative energy and work on reducing the cost through tax rebates and government grants so that more persons
can afford to make the changes.
 
Keep talking, keep on visualizing new solutions to complex problems and keep on working toward a sustainable future.  
 
 
 

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/26/2008 4:50:34 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Heretic, it seems good engineeering should be able to fix those problems, but then sometimes I think we should not worry about it and just do it.

T



        That's how we achieved the 3rd and 4th generations of a permanent welfare underclass when we set out to fix poverty.  Ever watch World's Wildest Police Chases?  That's the standard that would have to be met by those engineers. 


Oh come now, mechanical engineering and social engineering are totally different creatures. Tsk tsk - guilt by semantic association.

Gasses under compression are certainly dangerous but combustible liquids and gasses are dangerous too. We devise ways to minimise risk and balance that against the benefits. This isalways the case.

As long as the engineers are not those who designed the 70's era Pinto and as long as they aren't overseen by a management that would rather pay out death settlements than fix the problem - I am certain a workable solution the the storage problems for compressed air can be overcome.


Z.

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/26/2008 7:14:08 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee


Oh come now, mechanical engineering and social engineering are totally different creatures. Tsk tsk - guilt by semantic association.




            Just playing a little, mostly.  Who we are socially will have a great effect on the task that will be set for the mechanical engineers, though.

       Here is some video of the kind of standard they'll have to meet for compressed gas/air cars. 

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/26/2008 8:07:20 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

California leads the nation in the number of hybrid cars.  Utah has the highest number of cars running on (CNG)compressed natural gas.   
 



         That's very much what I had in mind, when I asked the question, Ven.  It's going to be like VHS or Beta, HDVD or Blueray.  We depend too heavily on interstate commerce to go far with multiple standards.  One or two will have to win.  No guarantee it will even be the best option available.  It might be the worst, with best advertising company.

        You are absolutely right about greener power generation being localized, but it's already that way.  We burn or dam what is handy.

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/27/2008 3:59:07 AM   
shallowdeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval
What I see happening is a move away from a fuel monopoly (oil) and a move toward many different choices for consumers.

In the short-term, I agree that there is likely to be an increase in the variety and availability of alternate (non-petroleum derived) transport fuels. I don't see that as an ideal solution, though. I think that TheHeretic is right, we'll see the energy storage mechanism for vehicles consolidate on one method in the long-term. The inefficiency of building out parallel infrastructures, and the resulting incompatibility problems, make a universal method preferable. That doesn't mean the source of energy can't be diverse, though. If the transport "fuel" is just an energy storage mechanism, then it's not tied to any particular energy source and you get the best of both worlds: choice of a variety of power sources and the convenience and efficiency of a universal fueling method and infrastructure.

I believe that whatever transportation energy system we settle on in the long-term should be able to provide a domestic, sufficient and sustainable energy supply that does not produce appreciable pollution in terms of particulate or carbon emissions. Improvements in efficiency, like hybrids, do not even attempt to address this need. The use of alternative fossil fuels like methane (a.k.a. natural gas) only defers the supply issue, by switching to a more abundant - but still limited - domestic source, and does nothing to address the carbon emissions issue. Something more substantial is required.

If some rechargeable energy storage method is used, electrical energy will probably be the medium of energy exchange between the power sources and the storage method used by vehicles. That means electrical power generation (and transmission) capacity will need to be increased to meet the additional burden of transportation energy requirements. That increase in generation capacity needs to come from sources that meet the requirements of a long-term solution: domestic, sufficient and sustainable - without appreciable particulate or carbon emissions.

Wind, solar, hydro, and geothermal are all good potential sources. The problem is that they currently account for only a small percentage of power generation and are realistically going to take a long time to replace existing fossil fuel sources, let alone provide the additional power required for transportation needs. Until the grid is clean, switching over to energy storage for transportation doesn't solve the long-term problem.

Anything that can be done to reduce transportation energy demands not only has the immediate advantages of reduced consumption, but also makes a clean transportation future more achievable by reducing the amount of electrical transmission and clean generation capacity that needs to be built to make it a reality. Steps like vehicle mass reductions and electric hybrids can, and should, be aggressively pursued, as should improved public transit and community planning that reduces required transport distances.

My own pet fascination, though, is automated control of traffic. If we're not already there, we are fast approaching the time when it's technically possible for an automated system to do a much better job of driving than us humans collectively manage. The potential energy savings are enormous, since traffic could flow continuously - offering even better savings than hybrids, but without the downsides of increased vehicle mass, manufacturing expense and toxic waste from batteries. There are also immense potential non-energy related savings as well: time saved traveling and, more importantly, a significant reduction in the number of accidents, injuries and deaths that we've become so oddly complacent about. It wouldn't be a simple or quick undertaking, but I think it would be well worth it - and limited highway implementations, at the least, could probably be rolled out in the near future if it were to become a priority.

Thoughts on potential energy storage methods:
I personally like the prospect of hydrogen. In the long run, it can serve as a pure energy storage mechanism. The unique thing about hydrogen is that, unlike other potential energy storage mechanisms, it can be readily derived from fossil fuels in the short-term. This means we can start switching to it rapidly without needing to wait for a clean grid or, worse, adding a bunch of fossil fuel plants to meet increased electrical demand. The immediate benefits would be limited - we'd basically be switching to natural gas - but we could start building out some of the fueling infrastructure and manufacturing cars that could be used well into future. As the grid becomes cleaner and capacity increases, the system could transition with relative ease to being pure energy storage.

I'm not completely satisfied with compressed hydrogen fuel storage, and really hope metal hydrides or something else pans out soon, but I still think hydrogen has potential. Despite my generally positive outlook, I'm not a particularly vehement hydrogen partisan, and welcome others' input on alternative energy storage methods and how to transition to them.

Thoughts on electrical power generation sources:
In the long-term, I think that wind, solar, hydro, and geothermal alone will be capable of meeting our energy demand, and I see them all as acceptable - although solar and geothermal are probably the least environmentally damaging. I'm strongly in favor of government support to develop these industries - as I really do see them as being in the national interest.

While optimistic about the future of wind, solar, etc., I think switching off fossil fuels in general is becoming increasingly imperative - and I'm not convinced that their development can be realistically (i.e. cost effectively) ramped up to meet demand in the time frame I'd like to see. As a result, I'm quite willing to look to nuclear power as a bridge between them and the current fossil fuel mess.

(in reply to Vendaval)
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