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RE: Different perspectives - 4/22/2008 2:49:20 AM

RavenMuse

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Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
However I hate the whole "you are showing him up" thing I have had that said to me, I have also had "you are not acting like a submissive" purely because I dont treat every tom dick and harry like I am theirs (especially not the silly little psudo Doms who learned who they were by reading porn)

There is a difference between those two statements... a BIG difference.

The latter is typical 'kneel bitch brigade" bullshit, because the only person you owe anything to is the person you are in submission too.

The former however... she WAS showing Him up as shown a number of ways. If it was a situation where she wasn't 'protected' from direct responce to her actions by protocol then there is NO WAY that girl would have DARED do that, it would have been MY responce she would have faced.... but it was him she was trying to provoke a responce from by bratting at Me.. His 'guest' (Which also pissed Me off on another level because it breached the whole concept of 'host' I was raised with).

The fact that he 'should' have pulled her into line the instant it was drawn to his attention by didn't ment they BOTH where making him look bad.

The fact I stopped her dead without laying a finger on her in the face of him having no control at all... definatly showed him up because I simply shouldn't have had to!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to colouredin)

Post #: 21

RE: Different perspectives - 4/22/2008 2:58:40 AM

RavenMuse

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Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hissltora
Not necessarily for any protocol issues, that can differ as far as night v day, but the fact she was invading others' space and physically accosting them, with the arm hair pulling... THAT is major misbehavior edging towards grievance. Would anyone cheerfully chuckle and say, "What a cute puppy!" if said puppy was painfully gnawing on a guest's hand? So why should the sentient human girl-sub not be held to at least a similar standard?! A common vanilla etiquette standard?

Actualy, such a puppy would have had a rap across the nose pretty sharpish.... there are no protocol issues stopping Me directly responding like there are with someone elses girl.

A factor she was aware of and was using to hide behind.

Oh and her dom simply nodded rather than contradict Me when I told her she was making him look bad! (Though if he damn well agreed then the fact he didn't do anything about it earlier simply reinforces the lack of control he has!)

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Hissltora)

Post #: 22

RE: Different perspectives - 4/22/2008 3:37:03 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Maybe one of the reasons he moved on is because he enjoys this kind of dynamic and your present (his ex) wasn't compatible that way.

He frequently says in a joking way that I'm going to get spanked. And I frequently do get one in that same manner. Which doesn't mean that I'm being punished, because we don't have a punishment dynamic.

However the fact that we do this doesn't mean our dynamic isn't always in place, it is. It just means we enjoy different fun and games. No different than someone enjoying playing golf on the weekend vs someone else who prefers a pick up game of softball.

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Post #: 23

RE: Different perspectives - 4/22/2008 3:40:01 AM

RavenMuse

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Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Maybe one of the reasons he moved on is because he enjoys this kind of dynamic and your present (his ex) wasn't compatible that way.

It wasn't him who 'moved on' she did... and given the 'advice' I have been asked for from him about aspects of D/s he isn't exactly happy with what he has got/ what he does either.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 24

RE: Different perspectives - 4/22/2008 5:09:57 AM

colouredin

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Joined: 2/2/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

The fact that he 'should' have pulled her into line the instant it was drawn to his attention by didn't ment they BOTH where making him look bad.

The fact I stopped her dead without laying a finger on her in the face of him having no control at all... definatly showed him up because I simply shouldn't have had to!

Why? Where is this D/s book of rules that says how someone should behave? Sure the pinching your arm hairs was rude and impolite, would have been in any circumstances and you would have said gosh she is rude but would you have questioned their whole relationship?

Personally I find the Doms that feel the need to lecture other subs are not behaving how they should, I have had experiance of one or two who get mad when I swear and the like, but the Dominant that I was with didnt care so who is right? Surely my goal is to make the Dom I am with happy not everyone in the scene.

It does stand that how she behaved towards you was innapropriate but it just made me think about how the term has been used in regards to myself in the past. I have had Dominants who have reprimanded me, used harsh tones and thought simply because they were Dominant that I would appologise, I ma not a meek person I dont sub to the world if my Dominant had an issue with my behaviour then of course I would feel devestated and stop instantly, if he doesnt care then why do you?

< Message edited by colouredin -- 4/22/2008 5:10:31 AM >

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Post #: 25

RE: Different perspectives - 4/22/2008 11:31:44 PM

Vendaval

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That is an uncomfortable situation and the other Dom needs to bring her behavior under control. And has been mentioned, in a vanilla situation acting out in front of a guest is also inappropriate. I think you handled the problem very well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

The former however... she WAS showing Him up as shown a number of ways. If it was a situation where she wasn't 'protected' from direct responce to her actions by protocol then there is NO WAY that girl would have DARED do that, it would have been MY responce she would have faced.... but it was him she was trying to provoke a responce from by bratting at Me.. His 'guest' (Which also pissed Me off on another level because it breached the whole concept of 'host' I was raised with).

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(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 26

RE: Different perspectives - 4/23/2008 4:21:20 AM

RavenMuse

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Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
Why? Where is this D/s book of rules that says how someone should behave? Sure the pinching your arm hairs was rude and impolite, would have been in any circumstances and you would have said gosh she is rude but would you have questioned their whole relationship?

You said it yourself, "in ANY circumstance"... and yes I would have done, questioned if someone quite so immature could function in a relationship. The thing with it being the situation it was actualy makes Me question it less because I can see it stemming from the whole 'play punishment' thing... which if they want to do that with each other , frankly who cares, but when it boils over onto other people, in this case his guest, then there is every reason to question!

quote:

Personally I find the Doms that feel the need to lecture other subs are not behaving how they should, I have had experiance of one or two who get mad when I swear and the like, but the Dominant that I was with didnt care so who is right? Surely my goal is to make the Dom I am with happy not everyone in the scene.

Had he been doing his job or she had the brains not to let that spill over, unwelcomed and inappropriatly onto someone outside their relationship then I wouldn't have needed to. I shouldn't have needed to. Verbaly stopping her in her tracks is more appropriate than slapping her till her head span don't you think, because I certainly wasn't about to just sit there and take it.

quote:

It does stand that how she behaved towards you was innapropriate but it just made me think about how the term has been used in regards to myself in the past. I have had Dominants who have reprimanded me, used harsh tones and thought simply because they were Dominant that I would appologise, I ma not a meek person I dont sub to the world if my Dominant had an issue with my behaviour then of course I would feel devestated and stop instantly, if he doesnt care then why do you?

Stop personalising it you are refering to different circumstances, I doubt you would act in such a manner and brat at a guest. *I* don't care how he views it, it was inapropriate and if he doesn't care then I question him because not caring about that is something that 'makes him look bad' also!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to colouredin)

Post #: 27

RE: Different perspectives - 4/23/2008 9:12:27 AM

Archer

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When you (generic) brat at someone who you have not negotiated the bratting dynamic with you are just as wrong as someone who expects submission from you without it being a negotiated dynamic.

Both cases are examples of the exact same root disrespect.

Unless and until the dynamic has been negotiated general social norm behaviour is to be expected.

< Message edited by Archer -- 4/23/2008 9:13:50 AM >

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 28

RE: Different perspectives - 4/23/2008 10:34:27 AM

eyesopened

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Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
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i think we run into danger when we expect other people to have the same kind of relationship as we do. If this particular pair are happy in their play, who cares?

i was seeing a Dominant several years ago who loved to "punish" but had a mental block about engaging in percussion play without having a valid "reason" to spank. In other words, he really needed a SAM and explained to me how he planned to teach me to be exactly that. He would have just loved the female you met because that's what he wanted and needed. Me, the whole concept of being bad and needing punishment is horrible. i want to be good and Master does not need a reason or an excuse to strike me other than He feels like it.

i was not suitable for one and perfectly suited to my Master. That's the way it is. It would never occur to me to say the other Dominant was wrong or not doing things properly or had no control. It was simply that we didn't match.

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(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 29

RE: Different perspectives - 4/23/2008 12:28:09 PM

antipode

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I've read this twice, and I still don't know what you're going on about. So people who "do" at weekends aren't lifestylers? I am a bit incredulous - correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me you're setting rules for other people here. Like you wrote the handbook, and now you can be judgemental. Me, I just ;et people do wat they do, and want what they desire. I used to play at weekends, because the rest of the week (or the month) I'd be in different places, and in airports and airplanes. I think you should relax and mature a bit, and help people enjoy what they do, help people be what they want to be. I know I certainly have not appointed you to sit in judgement of anyone, whether they're 18 or 88 - as if that is significant.

Mellow out, and leave people in their own values, those have significance to them, and that is all that matters. You want to be boss of something, run for office.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 30

RE: Different perspectives - 4/23/2008 1:13:42 PM

Hissltora

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Joined: 8/23/2007
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Excuse me, All,

i believe that Archer pinned it on the nose (or tail): When you (generic) brat at someone who you have not negotiated the bratting dynamic with you are just as wrong as someone who expects submission from you without it being a negotiated dynamic.

As someone who is "in it for the long haul" instead of viewing it as extended play - my concept of service, reflection and behavior is often markedly different than those who do not commit to M/s (or even D/s) 24/7. i am much more aware of my actions and repercussions on Him then most of the subs that aren't 24/7.

If anyone wants to start the subblier than thou trip, i ain't buying tickets. i am not saying one sub is better than another...but i DO believe that if you wanna be a SAM and your Dom wants it, cool beans, but keep your brattiness out of my world.

This is going to spark the definition squabbling and 'to each their own' whining, and so be it. i happen to think that there is a line between lifestyle and ext r/play. Accompanied by very different expectations.

As the commercial said..."You got chocolate in my peanut butter! No, you got peanut butter in my chocolate!".

*walks away muttering "When Worlds Collide..."*

slave tora, devoted to Sir N...

...and slipping into an abestos suit.

(in reply to antipode)

Post #: 31

RE: Different perspectives - 4/23/2008 1:20:56 PM

Archer

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Raven has stated several times if they want to live that way they can and if it works for them fantastic.
Only examining the fact that there is a different perspective, not saying that because the perspective is not the same as his that it's wrong, only that because the perspective is different there will be times when those perspectives clash.

1. Whilst much falls into the catagory of "If it works for you... fine"

2.(Hopefully some of those who just DO this at weekends will have examples of where lifestyler perspectives have caused the problem too...

3. Thats how I view it also.... but I don't 'judge' how he handles things within his own relationship... I do 'judge' actions however that directly impact Me...

Three times he spoke to the fact that within their relationship they could and should do what works for them, that does not preclude someone from not getting it or having a far different perspective on the behaviour.

Later on he gets a bit preachy but really only on the point of when her behaviour (and to an extent his) impacted on him, and crossed personal lines.

(in reply to antipode)

Post #: 32

RE: Different perspectives - 4/23/2008 5:59:00 PM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
Status: offline

To me, when certain behaviors that are considered acceptable in a particular relationship dynamic are imposed on those outside of the relationship, we've now entered that "non-consensual" zone.

Say you identify as a puppy and one of your acceptable behaviors in your relationship is to hump your owners leg, doing that to someone else without their consent or approval is rude. If you're a brat in your relationship, then imposing your brattiness on others without their consent is rude.

There are lots of examples we could site, but for me, I would find a dominant who allowed their sub/slave/bottom to impose their bratty, disruptive behaviors on others without their consent, to be someone lacking in any sort of manners... and truthfully I would question how "in control" they were of their sub/slave/bottom. So basically I would find both sides of the slash to be rude and inconsiderate if they engaged in this behavior.

I may not always understand or be able to appreciate the dynamics of other's relationships, but I respect their right to them... as long as they don't force them on me. We do have a male/female couple in our local BDSM community where she is a 40 something year old loud, bratty, childish sorta subbish bottom. He apparently likes her behavior, but just looking at him, he seems overwhelmed by it most times. Especially because she imposes her behaviors on everyone around her and is often disruptive to group activities. She has made rude comments to me about me obeying my Masters commands/rules, and it made me very uncomfortable.

Her behaviors are just accepted and overlooked for the most part by those who have known them a long time. Her behaviors are also the basis for more than a few dominants (my Master included) to tell their sub/slaves that if they ever acted that way, there'd be hell to pay.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 33

RE: Different perspectives - 4/23/2008 9:14:45 PM

MistressOfGa

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Raven,
If you will recall when I got pup, we talked about how he was a total brat in private. He would act out and push me to my limits, just to get the "punishment", till he discovered that MY punishment was not a good time or fun.
He had never acted out in public, but I started to see signs of it, when my family members were around. I guess he thought he could act out and I wouldn't say anything about it, since it would most likely embarrass me to scold him in front of family. One day, I just simply had enough. I told him that if he didn't start behaving, I would strip him of his pants and shorts and spank him with a wooden paddle, in front of my family. I had had enough! I finally told him that how he acts/reacts out in public is a direct reflection on my training, he started to respect our dynamic more. Thank goodness they grow up! He was just 18, like your friends submissive and he was shocked that I would put myself out there, without a thought of how it would look to my family. They already knew he was my submissive, so I figured he had best start acting like one.

He has not acted up in private or public for 2 years now. Hard lesson learned, but well learned.

By the way, when he read your post, he said "Thank goodness I never acted like that!". I just smiled <s> How quickly he forgot how bratty he really was.

MoGa

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Post #: 34

RE: Different perspectives - 4/23/2008 9:19:10 PM

MistressOfGa

Posts: 2929
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quote:

One was trying to cut down her smoking and needed direct permission from her Master before having one but was having trouble getting hold of Him by text. The other girl piped up "Just have one, He is hundreds of miles away and will never know".... "Wanna bet?" said I "it isn't just subs that talk to each other ladys and now I know what rules she is under she WILL stick to them or He WILL know!".

Yes, we do have this funny way of just knowing things. Just tonight pup called and asked if he could have one drink at karaoke. I told him, yes, just one.
Some may ask, how do I know he only drank one? Because I do know. Simple as that. It is a matter of trust.

MoGa

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Post #: 35

RE: Different perspectives - 4/23/2008 9:20:59 PM

MistressOfGa

Posts: 2929
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quote:

The 'buck' would stop at MY door

Absolutely. I agree with this 100%.

MoGa

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Post #: 36

RE: Different perspectives - 4/23/2008 9:34:58 PM

MistressOfGa

Posts: 2929
Status: offline

quote:

If this particular pair are happy in their play, who cares?

Hi eyesopened,
Who cares? I would care. If someone Else's submissive invaded my own personal space with her brattiness, I would definitely bring her behavior to her Dominant. If the Dom didn't care or he was unsure as to how to handle the situation, you can be sure, I would have done exactly what Raven did. This type of behavior didn't have anything to do with wiitwd. This case screams "Rudeness". I don't care who you are, at one time or another most people learn about body boundaries and what is and isn't acceptable. As the host, it was up to the Dominant to make sure that his "guests" were comfortable. He didn't, and I say that was rude as well.

This is very much akin to allowing your children to run all over the place in a supermarket, disrupting other shoppers. It is up to the parent to reign their kids in and if the parent doesn't do it, then the manager of the store may step in and ask that she either settle them down, or leave.

MoGa

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Post #: 37

RE: Different perspectives - 4/24/2008 4:19:29 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

Raven,
If you will recall when I got pup, we talked about how he was a total brat in private. He would act out and push me to my limits, just to get the "punishment", till he discovered that MY punishment was not a good time or fun.

Thats always a wakeup call for them, My girl soon found that I can address such things in a manner she very much doesn't enjoy, even without resorting the the word she fears most "disapointed!". But I had an advantage in that is she naturaly a good girl, there where just a few habits carried over at the start from different dynamics.

quote:

He had never acted out in public, but I started to see signs of it, when my family members were around. I guess he thought he could act out and I wouldn't say anything about it, since it would most likely embarrass me to scold him in front of family. One day, I just simply had enough. I told him that if he didn't start behaving, I would strip him of his pants and shorts and spank him with a wooden paddle, in front of my family. I had had enough! I finally told him that how he acts/reacts out in public is a direct reflection on my training, he started to respect our dynamic more. Thank goodness they grow up! He was just 18, like your friends submissive and he was shocked that I would put myself out there, without a thought of how it would look to my family. They already knew he was my submissive, so I figured he had best start acting like one.

Ah but You being You, even at that early stage if he had gone too far You would have addressed the matter. You take on that responcibility and take it seriously, You wouldn't have left it to another to deal with.

And yes, that is how I see it also. Whatever the internal dynamics of the relationship. If they are out 'on the scene' presenting themself as a D/s relationship then people ARE going to see the s types actions as reflecting on the Dominant. Like people in other situations find the actions of a child running amok in public reflects on the parent. The person with the responcibility is viewed accountable for acting on that responcibility if actions are being disruptive to OTHERS.... what they do between themselves, who cares.

quote:

By the way, when he read your post, he said "Thank goodness I never acted like that!". I just smiled <s> How quickly he forgot how bratty he really was.

From all the long chats We had I will stick up for pup there. I never heard You relate anything quite as disruptive to others. But yes, pup has come a long way, something both to Your credit AND that You are no doubt proud of him for.

< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 4/24/2008 4:20:07 AM >

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to MistressOfGa)

Post #: 38

RE: Different perspectives - 4/24/2008 4:26:31 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I don't understand why a dominant would want a pain in the ass that could not learn and would constantly require punishment. Don't most people enjoy peaceful, harmonic relationships?

For some, dishing out punishment is a pre-requisite for a peaceful, harmonic relationship.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 39

RE: Different perspectives - 4/24/2008 4:34:47 AM

MistressOfGa

Posts: 2929
Status: offline

quote:

From all the long chats We had I will stick up for pup there. I never heard You relate anything quite as disruptive to others. But yes, pup has come a long way, something both to Your credit AND that You are no doubt proud of him for.

I am extremely proud of him. To his credit, he has worked very hard to be the kind of man that he is and to be the kind of submissive that I want. I think some people forget that subs don't automatically come in a neat little box with a bow on it. They are molded and shaped to be the kind of sub that their Dominants want them to be. Who does the molding and shaping? Why the Dominants do, but who does the hardest work? I have to go with the submissive on this one. It is not easy to change a life time of habits, especially to please another person. Kudos to the submissive who achieves that goal.

MoGa

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Post #: 40

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