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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 9:28:43 AM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

AIDS and HIV are not the primary reasons blood play is not allowed at some "public play" events. Legal issues such consental "assualt" are. Hepitis is the next reason. After that it's general squimishness of the fluffy fuckers that only socialize at these events. HIV and AIDS are only issue for the uneducated groups out there. Recently, LIFE Detroit did an amazing presentation on body fluid exchange and play and the specific title was "Safe Sex and HIV/AIDS Education- What´s Right and Wrong with It? - A panel discussion" The discussion included WHY it's okay and can be safe for an individual who is HIV+ to play in public.


*shrug*  I think there are different kinds of "education" that people can have, Boijen.  I would not say that you are wrong that the risks and consequences of HIV infection can be managed much better these days, and that many clubs (and events) are more enlightened about these things than others.  And I am glad that some parts of the community feel safer or more comfortable--but I'm wondering if this may not break down somewhat along age lines.

Some people are not squeamish because they are "fluffy fuckers" or completely ignorant.  (Or "straight off the internet", as one other poster put it.)  Just speaking solely for myself--I came of age sexually and socially in the late 1980's and early 1990's on the west coast, in Seattle and Vancouver.  My understanding of AIDS was definitely formed during the period that the most painful consequences of public ignorance were paid in full by people in a number of lifestyle communities, especially some of the gay leathermen who were dear to me.  One of my favorite people during that period had a biohazard tattoo placed squarely over his solar plexus to make his status clear to any potential partner...  

*snip personal feelings/experiences that I really don't want to revisit anyway--fuck it, no one cares.*

Anyway...many players of my generation and older are survivors of that first wave.  I would not dream of saying that there are not long-term emotional impacts from those experiences, or that they don't shape your attitudes for life.  A person only has to "make the visit" once to know that AIDS is not something they want to risk.  Or, if you are willing to risk it, certainly not something you'd be willing to risk for the sake of some stranger's kink at a nightclub.

This being said...I have not gotten into blood sports myself, but I do not have a problem with others doing so.  And I do not make the rules at clubs or events.  I just follow them and try to Play Nice in whatever way the organizers are comfortable with!  I am glad to hear people speak out and say that there are more enlightened attitudes at the clubs and event that they attend--would love to get more details from public players in this thread with a location of their event/club and what the policies are there regarding blood and sex, because there seems to be a lot of variation.  (And some of these places already sound like a gas.   )

Just to supply another data point, however:  any time I have questioned a club's No Liquids policy, I have never been told that it was about legal mumbo-jumbo or worries about "assault" charges.  Which is a good thing, because that is a ridiculous reason to privilege one type of play over another, especially in arbitrary ways, and I would have said so.  If anyone had ever tried to run that rationale past me, I'm afraid I would have laughed, because ALL play is legally risky in this regard--there is no "special case" law that makes "raping" someone with a condomized object legally privileged over "raping" them with your own body parts, especially your mouth!  And I'm afraid that the type of implement you use to torture someone is also not a great legal defense.  The court is not impressed by "But I just subjected him to repeated electro shocks, yer Honor, I didn't draw blood!" as a rationale.

No, these decisions have always been rationalized to me in terms of blood-borne pathogens and the spread of disease.  Hepatitis is not equally risky to all of us--personally, I am immunized against at least two types of hepatitis and tetanus in my line of work--but I could certainly see why people do not want to ask for an immunization record when folks walk in the door.  I cannot blame them, I guess.  It's probably less complicated to manage the risk by forbidding certain activties categorically than to institute policies that require more education.  The larger the group, the more difficult it is to control what goes on anyway.

Anyhoo, moving on to a more interesting question from my PoV...I'm wondering:

Where do people here play, and what is allowed there?  I actually think the most interesting part of this thread is the variety of public events and activities that people seem to be describing.  I may have to start touring the clubs in different cities and countries to see how y'all roll. 

Shout it out, folks--where do you Make the Scene? 

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 4/26/2008 9:31:08 AM >

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 10:34:55 AM   
MadameMarque


Posts: 1128
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quote:


[clip]
Where do people here play, and what is allowed there?  I actually think the most interesting part of this thread is the variety of public events and activities that people seem to be describing.  I may have to start touring the clubs in different cities and countries to see how y'all roll. 

Shout it out, folks--where do you Make the Scene? 



Always interested in your posts, ShaktiSama.

In Seattle, we have the Center for Sex Positive Culture, previous known as The Wet Spot!  Not all the events held there are BDSM-oriented, but the BDSM parties try to be as uninhibiting to people's pleasure as possible.  Sex, blood, take-downs, bukake, for example. 

DM's ask to be made aware of certain kinds of scenes, so that those scenes can be set up in an appropriate place.  For example, wax play and body fluids need to be some place where they can be easily cleaned up, after, and a loud, disruptive scene needs its space, so it doesn't completely take over other scenes.  Cleaning supplies are available and attendees clean up after themselves, directly after a scene.  Then after the party, a crew cleans up more.

Only scat is not allowed, and this is only for practical reasons, those being that scat has proven to be too difficult to contain, both for contamination and the smell.

DM's have within their discretion to stop an activity that they deem too dangerous, but this is very rarely at issue.  Unless it's a danger to life, property, or the continued operation of the facility, DM's are not to interrupt a scene.

Actually, with a few exceptions, it is always certain psychological scenes that provoke the most disapproval.  Nazi uniforms, race play, realistic (consensual) rape scenes, - oh, yeah, these are what really make a lot of people who think nothing of drawing blood, say 'safeword,' when it comes to how much is too much.


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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 10:51:16 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama


*shrug*  I think there are different kinds of "education" that people can have, Boijen.  I would not say that you are wrong that the risks and consequences of HIV infection can be managed much better these days, and that many clubs (and events) are more enlightened about these things than others.  And I am glad that some parts of the community feel safer or more comfortable--but I'm wondering if this may not break down somewhat along age lines.


You have mail

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 10:58:12 AM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
(snipped) After that it's general squimishness of the fluffy fuckers that only socialize at these events. HIV and AIDS are only issue for the uneducated groups out there.

If you are close enough to have body fluids flung on you because you're watching...you're too close and learn how to back the fuck up. You get squicked out...go else where!

Being a incredibly heavy blood player, who has no problem playing with HIV+ individuals, in public or private, it borders on offensive to me that people can't keep their fuckin mouths shut because they get squicked. My favorite scenes end up with people bleeding. In fact most of my scenes, from the top and bottom, end up with someone bleeding.

Most clubs will have rules about going about blood sports and as long as those rules are followed, the fluffy fucks can somewhere and cry to themselves. So long as they don't step on my scene we're good.

boijen, I love you.  Seriously.

As a paramedic and transplant coordinator, I deal with people who have hepatitis, HIV and worse (try a little strep meningitis or MRSA bacteremia?).   I draw their blood, dress their wounds, and depending on how messy the situation is, I end up elbow deep wearing it from time to time.  A trickle of blood from a cane welt is the last thing in the world I'm going to freak out about.

I can't say it better. If something disturbs you, go look at someone or something else.  No one is forcing you to see it.  Heck, no one is forcing you to stay at the party either!

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 11:06:34 AM   
BoiJen


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Status: offline 		Of course. My fanclub grows expodentially daily. Next week I'm watching them vote for president lol

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 11:10:46 AM   
LadyPact


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I'll probably catch hell for this, but it is simply reprinted.  These are the rules for the public club that I play at.

No drinking piss. No pissing on the face. Other water sports or "golden shower" scenes will be permitted only by specific prearrangement between all participants and Management and only in the specific dungeon areas set-up for such activity. Scat scenes are not allowed. No objects of breakable material or with sharp points or edges are to be inserted into any body cavity at any time. No electrical shock devices shall be used above the waist unless the Top is known by the DM as a knowledgeable "electrician". Under no circumstances whatsoever are tit-to-tit or armpit-to-armpit connections permitted. "Violet Wands" and other "surface effect" devices may be used anywhere except near the eyes or nose. Needles may not be reused under any circumstances. Other items that draw blood may not be used on another person unless adequately sterilized and discussed with (removed in case this is a TOS violation) Management before use. Any form of "breath control" that completely blocks the intake of oxygen for any length of time, no matter how brief, is not permitted.

The private club that I play at has a very similar set of rules, plus some in addition. 

Shatki, I just wanted to say, I appreciated the other parts of your post.  I remember that time.  Back before we knew the hows and the whys.  I don't want to be a fear monger of any sort, but I remember how scary it was back then.  You didn't have to be kinky for it to effect you.  I'm glad we've moved past that.


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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 11:11:20 AM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		You have to be careful with bloodletting in public. You don't want to make the equipment unusable for any one else. If she wasn't planning to do this, and hadn't put a plastic sheet down under him then she should have stopped. Simply because she hadn't prepared for that and was contaminating the equipment and endangering others, including those who wound up having to clean up after her.

If she plans to do this in future, she would do better to run it by the DM to see what the club rules are, what's required to prevent anyone else from being exposed to his blood.

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 11:48:51 AM   
ShaktiSama


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Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Shatki, I just wanted to say, I appreciated the other parts of your post.  I remember that time.  Back before we knew the hows and the whys.  I don't want to be a fear monger of any sort, but I remember how scary it was back then.  You didn't have to be kinky for it to effect you.  I'm glad we've moved past that.


Agreed.  It was Not Good.  And BoiJen is not wrong--the fear did a lot of damage too.  I haven't forgotten the flip side of things either--the people who would shun their friends, lovers and even family when they needed love the most. 

Example:  I opened my arms once to give someone a little hug and he just...collapsed.  For no other reason than because I put my arms around him.  It had been so long since someone touched him without a pair of gloves on for some clinical purpose, he just cried for hours.

Looking back I cannot even imagine how much he must have been suffering, from the loneliness and the sub drop and the abandonment.  I wasn't as experienced back then, was younger than Boijen is now and a LOT dumber, and didn't really have a clue what it could mean to be a bottom that no one will touch.



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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 11:53:37 AM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
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From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

You have to be careful with bloodletting in public. You don't want to make the equipment unusable for any one else. If she wasn't planning to do this, and hadn't put a plastic sheet down under him then she should have stopped. Simply because she hadn't prepared for that and was contaminating the equipment and endangering others, including those who wound up having to clean up after her.

If she plans to do this in future, she would do better to run it by the DM to see what the club rules are, what's required to prevent anyone else from being exposed to his blood.

I wouldn't take what the OP posted as having been a DELIBERATE blood scene.  It really didn't sound like anything more than abraded skin from compression that had broken capillaries. 

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Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 12:59:31 PM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		Thankyou all for a very intelligent and informative discussion.
I don't think that our mindsets are to do with age but rather with experience.
I started in social care as a care worker and I was a hospital social worker when I got the sack for my profile on here. So a lot of things that others have no knowledge of are well within my experience. I try for a non judgemental attitude but do not receive that from others. However I do find it difficult to stand by when I feel that someone is being abused.
Was this a punishment or was it a scene?
If it actually was punishment then I would have been very upset that it was happening in public. I do wish people would use words in the correct way. It would make it much easier for newbies to understand. People come into the lifestyle for many different reasons. I talked to a sub for ages before he admitted to me that he just wanted to take me dancing. He had mental health difficulties which had been made worse by his one and only meeting with a Domme who publically humiliated him by making him dance naked.
We have to be responsible for the consequences of our actions.
For a lot of people the lifestyle is the only place in society where they are accepted. Everywhere else they are freaks. I'm not a racist but I have spent a lot of time calling one black man all the racist names I could think of so that he would no longer be hurt by them. For a while though the ideas of the lifestyle did make me paranoid. I still can be at times. When I use the word punishment I mean it. However for me being a Domme is not about punishment it's about discipline. If someone wants to be in a relationship with me then they had damn well better learn how to treat me. That includes friendship.

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 1:28:50 PM   
ElanSubdued


Posts: 1511
Status: offline 		BoiJen,

--- Of course. My fanclub grows expodentially daily.
--- Next week I'm watching them vote for president lol

Okay.  You gotta' smile for us now.  I just wanna' see how many more teeth you can fit in there. :-)

Note:  bold emphasis added by moi.

Elan.


< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 4/26/2008 1:33:54 PM >

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 1:53:13 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
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Status: offline 		I forgot to mention I have no teeth

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 2:23:28 PM   
ElanSubdued


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quote:

BoiJen
I forgot to mention I have no teeth


[perving]  Such a tragic waste that you're a lesbian. :-)  [/perving]

Elan.

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 2:53:58 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
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Status: offline 		MsK doesn't think so lol

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 3:28:49 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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Status: offline 		I sure don't think so!


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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/26/2008 7:46:43 PM   
MsCfromMelbourne


Posts: 777
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		Off on a tangent down memory lane....

I have only cut someone open with a flogger once.  In my early days (15 years ago so AIDS was around), I was lucky enough to train a little with various pro-dommes.  One handed me a heavy flogger to use on her "slave"

Being a total newbie, I did not realise it was so heavy it could cut....and it did.  Bright equi-distant bleeding slashes that we fixed up with some adrenalin, but they were very obvious

I also did not know the slave was married and pretending to be working back late at the office .  

What the hell would his wife say?

I found out later he told her a filing cabinet fell on him!!!

Moral of the story:  when visiting your pro-domme, don't try to get freebies from the apprentices   You get what you pay for in life....


< Message edited by MsCfromMelbourne -- 4/26/2008 7:57:46 PM >

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/27/2008 1:54:30 PM   
MadameXTC


Posts: 96
Joined: 9/30/2004
Status: offline 		Well for me as long as safety precautions were used and everything was within limits of the club rules then who is to say what is right or wrong to do in public (it's the DM's call).. I think the blood play is not a good public play since there is so much risk for disease etc. but that's just me same thing for using barriers when inserting toys in public etc. You have to use all the safety precautions that are out there. That's just respectfull. It is also respectfull that if a person has a problem with a scene they go to the DM and talk about it and leave the people playing in peace. Leave the comments to themselves. I have never been in a situation where blood was drawn, but I did get stares of playing while I was pregnant. Unfortunatly everyone has opinions of what is right and wrong within BDSM. We are just opinionated people..

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RE: Public play, how far is too far? - 4/27/2008 3:55:36 PM   
ladyorchidaceae


Posts: 2
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		An excellent thread!

I don't like playing in front of a non-consensual audience like say at the local farmers market. heh. Not my idea of fun.

Private, semi-private, and public play parties: it's a no-brainer to get the rules of the space and if in doubt, check with the hosts/DM/staff.

Having attended and volunteered at many a play party... Too far are scenes that expose other players in other scenes at risk. Blood spraying, leaving bloody materials on unprotected surfaces, and the like. Too far, is usually whatever the staff says is too far... not what the general folks in attendance says... The memory of a dental scene [tooth pulling] at a party I was in charge of comes to mind. On the other hand, I also have left parties where players were engaged in play that I thought would cause permanent harm and the DM's didn't agree with me.

Personally, I always use safer sex for public play even with fluid-bonded partners as I'm not fluid bonded with the "space". So for public sex stuff it's all condoms, gloves, and the like even with fluid-bonded partners. For blood sports which I do, do in public parties: I use chucks [hospital pads], tarps, and lots and lots of gloves. I bring my sharps containers and cleaning supplies for the bottom as well. Trying to not touch anything but my bottom and if I do tossing my gloves and regloving up. I use whatever cleaning supplies the space offers for cleaning their equipment and surfaces, but I cover everything - bringing my own sheets, towels, tarps, and chucks.

This makes me think of the idea that edge play is in the eye of the beholder eh?


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