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RE: Adding BDSM - 4/27/2008 11:12:48 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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I'm not going to quote the whole thing. The quotes within quotes have gotten rather lengthy.

So what I see is not stupid people, just trusting people. And quite often, only time, making mistakes, and getting hurt will teach people. Even explaining the danger to these people, is often ignored because they just can't or won't believe it. They have "talked" to this person and just "know" they can trust them. Worst one I can remember off hand was a girl just into this, who told me she was going to see a guy to be tied up, flogged and maybe some more stuff. I asked her the usual questions about how well she knew him and so forth. They had talked for several months, met for coffee in a public place, he was nice and gentle and sweet and seemed great. I reminded her that once tied she lost all choices unless he allowed her any. She laughed, he would never hurt her.

I spent several months helping her recover from that visit. And no she never would go to the police. She blamed herself for what happpened. She walked in...he was wonderful, he helped her take her shirt off...tied her gently to a pole, flogged her a while, then started getting rougher and rougher, harder and harder, cussing her out for being worthless and other things, until she was black and blue, did a lot of other things to her, then tossed her in a closet for hours. When he let her go, he was nice and sweet again.

Switch this example to 'date rape' in the vanilla world. It really does boil down to the same thing.

While I do feel greatly pained by what your 'friend' had to go through, I happen to agree with her opinion that she wasn't entirely blameless. I hope you'll understand that statement, and that I'm not wishing to take the path of blaming the victim. However, can we not agree that better choices and more precautions could have been taken?

I digress. I don't want this to become a debate about the extremes. I'm more looking at the comparisons between that magic element about what we do that makes simple observations, that can be easily seen when looking at parallel situations that vanilla folks encounter, we seem to be so lost on. (OK, I wrote that and I'm not even sure it makes sense to Me.)

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RE: Adding BDSM - 4/27/2008 11:28:03 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel
Sensations definitely include the mental and emotional. So putting aside any desire to experience the sensation of physical BDSM play, a new dominant or submissive can "frenzy" over the desire to experience the mental and emotional aspects of dominance and submission.

BR,
I agree. I should have be clearer in the response.

Of course the sensation is processed mentally and emotionally. How it's processed and the difference between giving and receiving a flogging is the reason why 'testing' any implement on yourself isn't valid. The submissive mental/emotional processing of a sensation is different than the same sensation felt by a dominant mental/emotional processing.

I was addressing how it gets to the sensation point specifically regarding the apparent 'control' involved. How it is processed is another subject.

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RE: Adding BDSM - 4/27/2008 11:54:28 AM

MastrVran

Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Switch this example to 'date rape' in the vanilla world. It really does boil down to the same thing.

While I do feel greatly pained by what your 'friend' had to go through, I happen to agree with her opinion that she wasn't entirely blameless. I hope you'll understand that statement, and that I'm not wishing to take the path of blaming the victim. However, can we not agree that better choices and more precautions could have been taken?

I digress. I don't want this to become a debate about the extremes. I'm more looking at the comparisons between that magic element about what we do that makes simple observations, that can be easily seen when looking at parallel situations that vanilla folks encounter, we seem to be so lost on. (OK, I wrote that and I'm not even sure it makes sense to Me.)

Cutting down the quoting lol

You make perfect sense. And we agree. My point is not that the victims or submissives are blameless. They made choices and have to live with them. Its simply that in a vanilla relationship, you are rarely looking for someone to submit to. You want a boyfriend, husband, lover. A submissive wants someone to trust and allow them to take and have the control. What normally happens is because of this dynamic, which is different from normal vanilla relationships, they are more open to doing things that lead them into trouble. Or at least thats what I have seen.

The very desire to submit, places them in a different place than the desire to date. Both lead to relationships and have potential for dangerous problems. But the submit side, places them in a vulnerable position from the start. They are actively seeking someone to have control. when they find someone who seems to be able to supply that, they dont lose their minds, so much as just hope too much and believe the person when they say they are decent. Then they make simple mistakes like thinking it is just a date, and fail to see that the ropes, and other things can be so much more dangerous. It just seems like props or fun stuff. They dont see that when tied or in chains, they are stuck. Silly, but they are thinking vanilla.

Perhaps this explains my point of view better?

MV

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RE: Adding BDSM - 4/27/2008 1:03:48 PM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
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Thank you for clarifying Merc.

I was really responding more to the other guy who seemed focused on sensations and sensation frenzies being strictly physical.

And to expand on that thought, I am not a pain slut. Submitting to pain really is more mental and emotional for me. That's the major reason why I could never do any sort of painful play with anyone other than my Master..... because it would just be ouchy and not give me the mental and emotional response that I need.

My sorta kinda frenzy that came early on was more about submitting to the will of another, and serving. I wasn't in a big hurry to find someone to whack on me

because I needed the mental/emotional connection first. Hope that made sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel
Sensations definitely include the mental and emotional. So putting aside any desire to experience the sensation of physical BDSM play, a new dominant or submissive can "frenzy" over the desire to experience the mental and emotional aspects of dominance and submission.

BR,
I agree. I should have be clearer in the response.

Of course the sensation is processed mentally and emotionally. How it's processed and the difference between giving and receiving a flogging is the reason why 'testing' any implement on yourself isn't valid. The submissive mental/emotional processing of a sensation is different than the same sensation felt by a dominant mental/emotional processing.

I was addressing how it gets to the sensation point specifically regarding the apparent 'control' involved. How it is processed is another subject.

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Post #: 44

RE: Adding BDSM - 4/27/2008 1:27:21 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain
That first spacing and aftercare does remarkable things to the psyche.

Well that explains it! i've never felt 'sub-frenzy' because i have never felt sub-space! whooo hooo!!

Nah, neighbor, you're just a smart lady with good judgment. Yeah, I've seen you write before about never spacing. Of course, that was only an example of one possibility.

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RE: Adding BDSM - 4/27/2008 4:18:00 PM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Poetryinpain

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
Many apparently do lose their little subbie minds at the first sniff of dominance. Just not me.

That was rather judgemental and more than a little offensive, IMO.

Yep. It was judgmental. I use my judgment in many ways every day. We all do. There's a big difference between judging something and condemning it. What others do is their own business as distasteful as I may find it. What I do and feel is mine. Just stating it. Sorry you chose to take it as offensive. The actual statement you quoted was said jokingly as far as "little subbie minds" too, btw. Some of the best minds I know belong to subs, including my own. Just a figure of speech. No harm intended.

quote:

Just because you managed to keep on an even keel (for which I commend you, BTW), that doesn't mean that those who succumbed to sub frenzy are less of a person or less of a submissive

Nope it sure doesn't. I don't recall saying it did. I never said it made anyone less of anything. Reeks of desperation and is foolish? In my opinion, yeah pretty much. Makes someone "bad" or "less" of anything? That's your words, not mine.

quote:

I freely confess to having lost my "little subbie mind" at the beginning. I'm not proud of it, but I don't believe that I should be belittled or demeaned for having given in

Now it kinda makes sense why you took offense. How could or why would I belittle and demean you for something I had no way of knowing you even did? Not personal at all. Just my observation in general. If you felt belittled or demeaned, it just may be because you look back with regret on your behavior then, according to what you wrote.

quote:

I don't know your history, so I don't know if you came into BDSM early or after years of vanilla relationships, or if you simply have superior power of mind (not meant sarcastically). However, to put down submissives who experience sub frenzy as having "little subbie minds" was, IMO un-called for

I don't think I have "superior" power of mind, just a good, solid mind that I like to use regularly. I didn't put anyone down by saying "little subbie minds." It was, I thought, a humorous figure of speech, not a vicious put-down to those who say they went into an uncontrollable "frenzy." If you took it personally or harsher than it was intended, I hate that. Frankly, I'm sure you're no more offended by my offhand phrasing than I am at the belief held by many that submissives are so helpless, so directionless, so vulnerable that at the slightest whiff of dominance, they go babbling and mindless and helpless. I loathe that concept. I think it's bullshit.

Stop and think about it. How much sense would it make if a young "vanilla" individual got her first taste of cock and she went into a cock "frenzy." She had to have it, any time, any one, any where. God help her, she's out of control. Does that typically happen? Do we sit around and discuss how common that is? Nope cause it doesn't. If a young man got his first taste of pussy and went around groping women, needing it, desperate and helpless, there's not a soul here who would defend that. "He's out of his mind. He's in what we call 'vanilla pussy frenzy.'" No other group gets to act like imbeciles due to their strong desires and have it legitimized by calling it by the clinical term "sub frenzy." I simply find it beyond insulting. I would think others would too but what do I know?

quote:

pip, I don't usually take offense, but ...

But I apparently spoke about something you said you had personally experienced and regret. That will cause us to take offense when it strikes a nerve. Sorry if it seemed personal. It most assuredly was not...........luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 4/27/2008 4:23:09 PM >

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Post #: 46