RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/28/2008 9:02:26 AM)

Perhaps things have changed in the military…but I’ll bet not much. The military has always understood the importance of religion to men that may be sacrificing their lives for their country. Religion does become more important to most when bullets are flying and the thought of death is always with you. They do their best to accommodate and respect all religions.

If you don’t have a religion that is OK as well but they don’t have to accommodate a special meeting for atheists. Atheism is not a religion…there must be rules to govern.

In order to accommodate the religious requirements of soldiers there must be a list of accredited religions you must belong too. If yours is not on the list it is not the military at fault but the United States government itself and needs to be addressed on another level.

Remember this man did not protest anything until he was denied a promotion. Think about it…does it not strike you odd that he was trying to hold meetings for atheists? For what purpose and under what circumstances did he want these meetings?  You either have a religion to accommodate or you don’t.

I’ll bet his fellow soldiers were mad at him for his lack of loyalty to his outfit rather then his lack of religion.

The military must be a close net organization…loyalty and pride are demanded and needed. Now if you sue your commander, country and embarrass your outfit you should expect a negative reaction from fellow soldiers regardless of religion.

If you were his superior and evaluating his ability to lead men…and you knew his fellow soldiers did not respect him… you would not promote him…That would be the reason not that he was an atheist.

Butch



hisannabelle -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/28/2008 10:43:26 AM)

kdsub,

the fact is, this isn't about atheism. this is about ANYONE who is not christian; people of other faiths face just as many problems and sometimes more than people of no faith. in my opinion, regardless of the fact that christianity may be important to many soldiers, it's still highly insulting to the rest to marginalize them based on the fact that they are not christian, whether they profess another faith or none at all. and it is STILL a violation of separation of church and state for the military to sanction christianity in the way it does. aside from that, wanting to have meetings with atheists is no weirder to me than wanting to have meetings with other christians; when you are in the middle of a bunch of people whose worldview is vastly different from yours, particularly in a life or death situation, it's natural to want to seek out those who understand your own views on life and death and can support you in that.

respectfully,
annabelle.



kdsub -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/28/2008 10:56:08 AM)

Hi hisannabelle... I just don't agree with your basic assumption... I did not find any religion in the service that was not respected and represented...but it was just my personal experience...At least by the Military authorities. On the personal level the service reflects the general prejudices of the US society.

Butch



hisannabelle -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/28/2008 11:00:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

On the personal level the service reflects the general prejudices of the US society.

Butch


i am glad you didn't have that experience...i know people who have had different experiences, but maybe it's just because it's something i'm sensitive to. i agree with you here, i guess the reason that it really bothers me (above and beyond my problems with the general prejudices in us society) is that i feel like particularly because of their contribution people in the military should NOT face that kind of prejudice when serving, if that makes any sense. i just feel that if it is truly about supporting the troops, then it should be about supporting ALL the troops, regardless of religion (or sexual orientation or many of the other prejudices that exist in the military).

annabelle.



kdsub -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/28/2008 11:42:18 AM)

annabelle we sure agree there...no one should have to face prejudice when serving.

Butch



DomKen -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/28/2008 11:51:58 AM)

kdsub, do you not follow the news? This is defiitely not the first instance of non christians having issues. The Air Force Academy is just the single biggest recent example.

Clearly things have changed since the 80's and early 90's when I was in the service.



Alumbrado -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/28/2008 4:46:54 PM)

quote:

If you don’t have a religion that is OK as well but they don’t have to accommodate a special meeting for atheists. Atheism is not a religion…there must be rules to govern.

In order to accommodate the religious requirements of soldiers there must be a list of accredited religions you must belong too. If yours is not on the list it is not the military at fault but the United States government itself and needs to be addressed on another level.


FR...


. 

The Constitution has a little something to say about letting the government decide which religious beliefs are 'real', or 'accredited' or not...notice the listing of 'Atheism' on things like the headstone markers in VA cemeteries.


And I don't recall overt DoD policies against non-Christians when I served in the early 70s, or when my Dad had us on military bases in Europe in 60-62.  In fact I distinctly remember service members of Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist and atheist persusaion being candid about it.

Wonder what greased the skids for this change?



kdsub -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/28/2008 5:28:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

kdsub, do you not follow the news? This is defiitely not the first instance of non christians having issues. The Air Force Academy is just the single biggest recent example.

Clearly things have changed since the 80's and early 90's when I was in the service.


Hi DomKen

Unless I'm mistaken that charge turned out to be false...BUT maybe that old adage about smoke and fire may apply in today’s military...I hope not.

Butch



DomKen -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/29/2008 6:37:52 AM)

You are mistaken. The USAF investigation found:
quote:

a failure to fully accommodate all members’ needs and a lack of awareness over where the line is drawn between permissible and impermissible expression of beliefs.

Furthermore 9 specific cases were refered to the chain of command for further action.
http://www.af.mil/pdf/HQ_Review_Group_Report.pdf



kdsub -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/29/2008 7:06:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You are mistaken. The USAF investigation found:
quote:

a failure to fully accommodate all members’ needs and a lack of awareness over where the line is drawn between permissible and impermissible expression of beliefs.

Furthermore 9 specific cases were refered to the chain of command for further action.
http://www.af.mil/pdf/HQ_Review_Group_Report.pdf


Hi DomKen

Surely you’re not considering the Air Force Academy part of our armed forces!  [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m9.gif[/image]

Live and learn I guess... what a shame...glad to see they have  that situation straightened out.

Butch



MissSCD -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/29/2008 7:11:49 AM)

I survived the Army.  It was the best time of my life.  The moral code of the Army is Duty, Honor, God and Country.
That is why he feeling the heat.
 
Some take it to far.  I am not justifying either side without the facts.  That is the way the Army sees it, and my opinion is that when we serve our country, we do it their way.  It is not about me anymore.

Regards, MissSCD



Alumbrado -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/29/2008 4:16:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

I survived the Army.  It was the best time of my life.  The moral code of the Army is Duty, Honor, God and Country.
That is why he feeling the heat.
 
Some take it to far.  I am not justifying either side without the facts.  That is the way the Army sees it, and my opinion is that when we serve our country, we do it their way.  It is not about me anymore.

Regards, MissSCD


Can you link to the Army regulation that says service members have to give up their religion and worship the Army's denomination?

Because it didn't exist when I was in, and I would really like to find out more about this new policy.



Owner59 -> RE: "Fort Riley atheist soldier speaks out on lawsuit" (4/29/2008 4:36:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just listening to him in the link I get the impression he’s a POOR ME troublemaker.

One out of millions in the arm forces makes an accusation...I'm sure there have been and are more than one atheist in the service…and all of a sudden the arm forces of the US are all bible-thumping fanatics on crusade.

Never ceases to amaze me how gullible people are and ready to jump to conclusions.

Butch
 

So the go along-to get along types are the brave patriots.

And the lone complainer is the fuckup.

Guess we know which group you identified with.

"all of a sudden the arm forces of the US are all bible-thumping fanatics on crusade."

I dont see anyone saying that,Ms. conclusion jumper toer  err........lol



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