Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you

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AAkasha -> Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/29/2008 4:47:27 PM)
One of my biggest pet peeves about submissive men is their inability, at times, to think outside of their own fetishes and desires. How much effort should submissive men put into thinking about his partner's (or potential partner's) fetishes? The ongoing joke I have had is a submissive man telling his femdom partner as they get to know each other, "Well, enough about my fetishes. What do you think about my fetishes?" When do you think it's not worth the effort to try to get a submissive man to start to consider your fantasies, and not his? And submissive men - don't kid yourself -- really, there must be some situations where a femdom's fetishes just aren't that interesting to you. But how do you find out, what is your process? How do you really know what makes her tick? How do you keep her delighted and excited? I'll illustrate with a semi real story with two endings to it. Sub Joe: So what are you up to? Me: You won't believe this, but I just got highly distracted, in a weird kind of femdom way, by something I saw on TV just now. Sub Joe: What was that? I'd be interested to hear about it. Me: Well, it was a post game hockey interview with a player named Jordan Staal. It wasn't the interview that did it, but one of his teammates came up behind him right before it started and gave him a face wash from behind - which is basically putting his glove over his face, which is really disgusting and like sandpaper I hear, and rubbing it hard all over him until he pushed him away. Sub Joe: (laughing) I see. And..well, so what about that really did it for you? Is it the smother part or the guy guy thing or what? Me: I guess it's a combination. The startled reaction, the fact that it's a painful/degrading/kind of mean thing to do but they do it anyway, but I think it's just the visual of it - sneaking up, startling him, he couldn't see it was about to happen, and the fact that he had to push the guy away to get him to stop...but really it's mostly manufactured drama in my head I'm sure Sub Joe: Does it make you think about if he wondered, for a brief second, what might be going on, who would do such a thing, that kind of brief human instinct of fight or flight - plus, being on live TV, not wanting to look foolish, or..am I onto something? Did you wonder if he held his breath and tried to not react to it but realized he kind of had to because he was standing there in front of a TV camera? Me: I don't know but what you're saying kind of turns me on, so I think so!! Ok, compare it to this conversation: Sub Bob: So what are you up to? Me: You won't believe this, but I just got highly distracted, in a femdom way, by something I saw on TV just now. Sub Bob: What was that? I'd be interested to hear about it. Me: Well, it was a post game hockey interview with a player named Jordan Staal. It wasn't the interview that did it, but one of his teammates came up behind him right before it started and gave him a face wash from behind - which is basically putting his glove over his face, which is really disgusting and like sandpaper I hear, and rubbing it hard all over him until he pushed him away. Sub Bob: Oh, are you imagining it was you doing it to him? That he was your prey? Me: Not really. I didn't have time to think that far ahead about it, I just..liked it. Sub Bob: You were imagining that it was your thighs that were smothering him perhaps? That he soon to be abducted by you, as you were lubing up your strap on and making him watch? Me: Well, no, not really. Femdoms, do you think submissives don't ask enough questions about why you like what you like? Or do you think it is your responsibility to explain it all in detail? Do you ever feel like they project their own fantasies -- not ASK for fetishes to be met, but still think too much inward? How do you correct this and keep it positive? BTW the Jordan Staal thing was true. I wore out my TIVO the other day watching the clip. And I still can't put an exact finger on why it turns me on, but hot damn, does it! Akasha

Shawn1066 -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/29/2008 5:33:43 PM)
Something I personally strive for is for my Owner's desires to be fullfilled. After all, my greatest desire is to fulfill her desires. I have my preferences, but I trust her to play toward them as she sees fit. She does that, so we don't have a problem. If I ever felt like something was neglected, she's instructed me to ask. It's really quite simple. There are numerous things I've tried, and I will try in the future that aren't necessarily things that are -my- tastes. They're hers. I enjoy them because she enjoys them. I enjoy fulfilling her desires. She enjoys doing the same for me. That's how we work. I do ask her from time to time why she enjoys the things that she does. It's because it's very alien to me. I understand, and continually reevaluate, why I enjoy the stuff I enjoy. However, what I enjoy about something we share isn't exactly what she enjoys. I like understanding how her mind works just as much as she likes understanding mine. That's probably one of the most erotic things we share. I don't imagine I'll ever think like her, but I do love trying to get a grasp of her views and mindset. DV's Fox

TermsConditions -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/29/2008 5:37:11 PM)
I was going to post that I read a statistic recently that most of our thoughts (75% +) are about ourselves. Then I caught a glimpse of myself in a mirror and lost my train of thought.

Shawn1066 -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/29/2008 5:40:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TermsConditions I was going to post that I read a statistic recently that most of our thoughts (75% +) are about ourselves. Then I caught a glimpse of myself in a mirror and lost my train of thought. You know the old saying... There are three kinds of lies: 1. Lies 2. Damned Lies 3. Statistics. ;-)

blackpearl81 -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/29/2008 6:57:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha One of my biggest pet peeves about submissive men is their inability, at times, to think outside of their own fetishes and desires. (1) How much effort should submissive men put into thinking about his partner's (or potential partner's) fetishes? The ongoing joke I have had is a submissive man telling his femdom partner as they get to know each other, "Well, enough about my fetishes. What do you think about my fetishes?" (2) When do you think it's not worth the effort to try to get a submissive man to start to consider your fantasies, and not his? And submissive men - don't kid yourself -- really, there must be some situations where a femdom's fetishes just aren't that interesting to you. (3) But how do you find out, what is your process? How do you really know what makes her tick? (3a) How do you keep her delighted and excited? (4) Femdoms, do you think submissives don't ask enough questions about why you like what you like? Or do you think it is your responsibility to explain it all in detail? Do you ever feel like they project their own fantasies -- not ASK for fetishes to be met, but still think too much inward? How do you correct this and keep it positive? BTW the Jordan Staal thing was true. I wore out my TIVO the other day watching the clip. And I still can't put an exact finger on why it turns me on, but hot damn, does it! Akasha Sorry for editing Your OP Akasha, but it was neccesary for brevities sake. I also numbered the questions that I felt I could answer from a submissives perspective.. 1: This is a slippery slope IMO, mainly because if a sub thinks about it too much, he may be viewed as being obsessive about fetishes & kinks. If he thinks about it too little, it may seem that he doesn't care enough, when this could be further from the truth. Just like any other relationship, communication is key - because every Woman is different, different things appeal to her whether is a fetish or not. 2: I think that after its become "painfully obvious" that he is only expressing his desires, that would be my time to call it quits - if I were Dominant in nature. That can pretty much be summed up by any number of things: Him repeatedly failing to (either intentionally or otherwise) entice the Dominant into engaging in Her fetish - whether its bondage, S&M, or the myriad of other activities. Like the old saying goes: "Actions speak louder than words" him showing disinterest, would speak more of his not wanting to engage in it, than saying "as you wish, Mistress/Goddess/Ma'am/etc" 3: (and 3a) Attention to detail. THAT, IMO, is where a "good" sub (be it male or female) will shine, and be able to tell what kinks/fetishes She is into. Several cases in point: A Dominant is into sensory deprivation. The sub notices little things that make this known to him/her - lets say (and it'll probably be "amateurish" but bare with me) he sees several blind folds on the night stand.. or a few pairs of sleeping pads in various parts of her house. A Dominant is into massages. The sub sees minor things around Her house- heating stones, massage oils, various books on techniques/massage styles, etc etc. A Dominant is into bondage. The sub may notice minor things - eyelets screwed into walls in various parts of the house, excessive amounts of rope laying around, or bundled neatly in closets or plastic totes, etc etc. 3a: Personally, I'd be up for any discussions about Her kinks & fetishes, and then find a way to spice it up a bit.. for example, if She likes being bathed, but also likes having Her submissive blindfolded, why not turn the tables? (With her permission/blessing, of course) Blindfold Her, then bathe her.. hell.. go all out - after the sub is done bathing Her, give Her a full body massage while She's still blindfolded. 4: This may come off as sounding like a smartaleck, but thats not my intent... Submissives aren't mind readers - YES, they SHOULD take the time to explore & learn. I think personally, that this is a responsibility of both parties - the sub needs to understand more than just "i like doing this" from his/her Dominant. But also, some subs need to understand the "why" behind it, so they can be more effective at pleasing Her. I don't think its the Dominants "responsibility" persay, but She should definitely not be opposed to it, or hold anything back. I'm sure everyone here has horror stories of a well intended "addition" to a fetish or kink backfired drastically, because not enough information was asked (by the sub) or provided (by the Dominant) If the submissive asks, that shows interest enough. In my opinion, after that point, the Dominant should volunteer the extra information that could make a "normal" experience, "extraordinary". I hope you enjoyed reading my thoughts on this, and sorry if it seemed like such a long read, but I enjoyed replying to this question You posted. Sincerely, BP

petdave -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/29/2008 7:17:29 PM)
Well, that was an insulting over-generalization. Thanks! [8D]

AAkasha -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/29/2008 7:25:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shawn1066 Something I personally strive for is for my Owner's desires to be fullfilled. After all, my greatest desire is to fulfill her desires. I have my preferences, but I trust her to play toward them as she sees fit. She does that, so we don't have a problem. If I ever felt like something was neglected, she's instructed me to ask. It's really quite simple. There are numerous things I've tried, and I will try in the future that aren't necessarily things that are -my- tastes. They're hers. I enjoy them because she enjoys them. I enjoy fulfilling her desires. She enjoys doing the same for me. That's how we work. I do ask her from time to time why she enjoys the things that she does. It's because it's very alien to me. I understand, and continually reevaluate, why I enjoy the stuff I enjoy. However, what I enjoy about something we share isn't exactly what she enjoys. I like understanding how her mind works just as much as she likes understanding mine. That's probably one of the most erotic things we share. I don't imagine I'll ever think like her, but I do love trying to get a grasp of her views and mindset. DV's Fox Great response and a good illustration of how communication and mutual affection work well in a relationship. Two things occur to me upon further analysis when applying examples to NEW relationships (first date, or even pre-first date), and that is the possibility of two dynamics going on: 1) Submissives feeling that it is inappropriate or possibly rude to ask questions about what makes a femdom tick 2) Submissives that have not decided yet that they have real affection yet, therefore, they don't quite care (to some degree, understandable) about the how and why anyway -- rather, they just have the eye on the prize. The common thing I see when I look back at situations where men seemed to have a genuine interest and asked good questions was that there was either definite chemistry in play (a lot of mutual affection) or they were not kinky (the curiosity factor leads to the questions). Interesting discussion tho! Akasha

blackpearl81 -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/29/2008 7:36:04 PM)
Akasha: I think it's more of number 1, than anything else. I know when I met a Domme from here, I tried to stay away from the fetish/bdsm type questions or discussions.. after a while we eventually started talking about it, and we still do, to this day.

chezzy71 -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 3:49:30 AM)
Aakasha...here's another scenario you didn't consider.You own a sub that has played hockey or lacrosse at somepoint in his life either in high school or college or voth and who knows,perhaps even professionally.The same Staal incident happens as your sub is giving you a foot massage but the "face wash" catches his eye as well and states flat out.."how disgusting"!!!Now you can state that it is still hot but he will give you a hundred reasons why it 's not and then there is disharmony because he refuse to budge on his stance and of course you are just as adamant about how hot is for you.Even id he was to ask pertinent questions as to why you found it hot,the bottom line is you know he wouldn't be the least bit interested in wanting to be the "face wash" victim.Whta do you do then??..Kick him to the curb for showing disinterest??I played lacrosse in high school and was injured my senior season so i know all about dirty smelly gloves in the face and i can tell you..it is not a fun experience.So you see,there are times when it is about us only in a different context that has nothing to do with being focused or attentive to one's needs and desries.

tebe12345 -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 6:25:56 AM)
Chezzy- I think there's a big difference in a sub not being interested in one of the fantasies of a Dom/me for whatever reason and not showing an interest in general.I don't think the thread is saying a sub shhould try to take on every fantasy at all, it's just about moving the sexual/fetishy focus of the relationship so it applies to both, instead of always focusing on the male sub's fantasies. It's a habit, not an incident.

DominantJenny -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 7:06:09 AM)
I believe in not expecting my submissives to read my mind...although it's nice when they put two and two together and come up with the right number, I consider that a bonus. However, basic proper responsiveness in a conversation is required...example two was clearly NOT hearing what she was saying, and that's a HUGE no-no, in ANY relationship, imo. Is the sub listening and communicating? Are you? At a roughly equal level? Good. If not, something needs to be done; it the sub is (or you are) willing to work on it AND shows real effort and progress, okay. If not, shrug time to move on, most likely. With mine, he rarely fantasizes outside what we already do together, so I haven't had to deal with that. In general, though, I'm willing to explore most fantasies, as long as the relationship is thoroughly reciprocal, in my time and in my way, of course. When I have something I want to do that he doesn't, I, through conversation and observation, determine how much he doesn't want to do it, and, based on how much I want to, will decide whether to go ahead and do it or not. Sometimes, this involves carefully crafted enticing language, sometimes it involves "sometimes it's not always fun being the sub/slave", it all depends.

Leatherist -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 7:47:43 AM)
Just make him pass the written exam, or he doesn't get his nut. [;)]

MladyHathor -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 7:53:48 AM)
quote: One of my biggest pet peeves about submissive men is their inability, at times, to think outside of their own fetishes and desires. How much effort should submissive men put into thinking about his partner's (or potential partner's) fetishes? The ongoing joke I have had is a submissive man telling his femdom partner as they get to know each other, "Well, enough about my fetishes. What do you think about my fetishes?" I really get turned off when its a scenario of " you can do this and this and this and this to me---does that turn YOU on?" hell no, but it sure as hell seems to turn you on! I believe that at least from what I see of many male submissives--they seem to think our fetish is doing whatever it is that gets THEM off---for Me that is so far from reality. Most of the conversations go straight to the strap on or some variation, and seldom if ever, what makes YOU happy, what do You like. I am not a new form of a sex toy! quote: When do you think it's not worth the effort to try to get a submissive man to start to consider your fantasies, and not his? When early vanilla conversations contain this: " well if you had me, you could just f* me silly and release your tension" or " if you took my virgin ass, it would be all better", or something like " well the wittle boy will come and sit on Mommy's lap all naked and ready"-----PUHLEEZ why should I work to get him to ask, see, or be interested in Me?? I am not a My size Barbie! To Me its commom courtesy, give and take, ask assimilate, ask assimilate, communication people.** quote: And submissive men - don't kid yourself -- really, there must be some situations where a femdom's fetishes just aren't that interesting to you. The problem I see here is that the boys already come with a do and don't do list--never mind what I want, never mind what My fetishes are- OR AREN'T--there seems to be this assumption that because I am this, I MUST surely want to do that---I am NOT a check box, I am NOT a My size blow up Barbie, and I don't give a damn what you want shoved up your ass and down your throat! Unless the shoving is a fetish for Me. *What I am trying to say is not everyone Domina is in it for the sex or the strapons, our your damned fantasies--when a boy comes to petition Me, I do not assume, why do they?*

Reigna -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 1:19:59 PM)
"Well, enough about my fetishes. What do you think about my fetishes?" Hah, yes. I don't know that this annoying behavior is a specialty of submissive men, though. Rude and self-centered people can readily be observed any time, anywhere.

Wheldrake -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 1:33:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chezzy71 Even id he was to ask pertinent questions as to why you found it hot,the bottom line is you know he wouldn't be the least bit interested in wanting to be the "face wash" victim. Ah, but for me, the possibility that my Mistress will subject me to something I really don't like is actually an essential part of the thrill of submission. Being put through some genuine unpleasantness now and then, purely for her pleasure, is one of the things I signed up for. I doubt she'd be especially interested in giving me a "face wash", though... I think she'd be more likely to beat me around the ankles with a field hockey stick. I almost always like hearing about her fantasies, when she chooses to share them with me - but then, I find erotic fantasies interesting in general. Maybe it's pure mental voyeurism, but I rarely decline an invitation to look in through the window of someone else sexuality. The contents may be mundane, baffling, or occasionally disturbing, but it's still intriguing to see what's there.

cloudboy -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 1:38:25 PM)
Doesn't anyone tire of these stereotypes and the oft-recycled examination of the god-awful "do-me" sub? Frankly, if I was talking to a married femdom who wasn't interested in a relationship, I might be concentrating on my own fetishes too.

pusseexxxx -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 1:51:56 PM)
Akasha With respect . I hope I am submissive et al. The questions are intriguing if potentially both a conundrum and dangerous to answer from the sub missives perspective. One could liken it to courting the black widow spider ... get it wrong and one could get consumed. (or praps that’s just ones fetish ) At this stage of my life I feel the critical issue identified to me is chemistry and dynamics. I have the view, possibly misplaced that if those components are present other things occur due to desire to know and please her. They inevitably lead to respect and deep emotional ties as sharing and possible enslavement develop .... Enslavement to the gift that is her including her fetishes; absolutely. The conundrum reference is based on the possibility that the femdom may well be mischievous and either answer any query with mystery, an answer difficult (deliberately so I say with trepidation) to nail down or in the past denial of any fetish or a very simplistic possibly the answer the femdom thought would torment me most at the time. So in a dynamic relationship it can be a delicious minefield of smoke mirrors traps and delusion ....... and she would not have it any other way .... in my opinion, exacerbated by the fact, if there is that magical mystical chemistry, the submissive more often than not has severely diminished responsibility. Not an excuse an observation. So how does one attempt to intrigue delight and excite ones femdom or potential femdom Well .... there’s the exciting but dangerous gentle testing the barriers and hoping one survives. Fact is; to myself every word she says, says something about her and clues are subtly and not so subtly there. So the more wee talk the more I feel I know adore and understand her A small sharp intake of breath can tell you more than a book sometimes. A small quirky smile or my favourite ........ sparkly eyes. Being in the early stages of a potential FEMDOM relationship my thoughts are focused on not offending her, not being pushy, vis a vis, does this or this or this do it for you Mi ...... gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa .... you know ... blowing it, and special Femdom Relationships simply are not thick on the ground in my view. I do ask questions but I back off immediately if she is not ready or appears unwilling to respond, I like to think laughter is a huge component, what she laughs at and the tone and depth of her laughter tell immense amounts about her likes and or fetishes from ice-cream too ... ? At this stage I adore my possible ( I’m hopeful) FEMDOM leading the dance so to speak, therefore I get wee hints and certainly outright statements of intent; I am very clear "It is all about her" How does one sustain this. For me very simply and easily. My Philosophy is I adore her all, the gift that is her, good bad and indifferent. Fortunately I am piecing together some of her fetishes which makes it a delight to gently tease her .... and the teasing performs another task, that of confirming that indeed this is her fetish ... or not .... whilst surviving relatively unscathed in the process. Then again praps its all an illusion/delusion. And with a twinkle in my eye I am reminded of Sigmund Freud I have been studying females for 30 years ... and I still don’t know what they really want. Realistically I know its a symbiotic relationship that requires effort. It really is all about her as if you find her to be the essence of your desires If she spinz your wheelz the only way its going to be anything special is if the converse applies. We want it to work .... so It works of you work at it. thank you for the opportunity to share what are only my views donald

Reigna -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 2:08:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chezzy71 Even id he was to ask pertinent questions as to why you found it hot,the bottom line is you know he wouldn't be the least bit interested in wanting to be the "face wash" victim.Whta do you do then?? I would wait. To my mind, one of the most fascinating aspects of D/s is the way, over time, the s adopts the D's fantasies. In my experience, this happens so consistently as to be almost a fixed characteristic of submissives. It plays out like this. During initial explorations with a sub, he will respond negatively to my mention of activities x, y, and z. As the relationship develops, I will make a casual, infrequent references to x, y, and z. Or I might not mention them at all. Sooner or later, he'll tell me that he's ready to do x now. In fact, much as he hates the idea and always has, he's so turned on by the mere thought of x that suddenly he's begging me for it. And I know that y and z aren't far behind. I'm not sure why this happens. I think it's as much "I want you to make me do something I hate" as "I long to please you." But whatever it is, it's HOT. [8D]

AAkasha -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 7:17:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Reigna quote: ORIGINAL: chezzy71 Even id he was to ask pertinent questions as to why you found it hot,the bottom line is you know he wouldn't be the least bit interested in wanting to be the "face wash" victim.Whta do you do then?? I would wait. To my mind, one of the most fascinating aspects of D/s is the way, over time, the s adopts the D's fantasies. In my experience, this happens so consistently as to be almost a fixed characteristic of submissives. It plays out like this. During initial explorations with a sub, he will respond negatively to my mention of activities x, y, and z. As the relationship develops, I will make a casual, infrequent references to x, y, and z. Or I might not mention them at all. Sooner or later, he'll tell me that he's ready to do x now. In fact, much as he hates the idea and always has, he's so turned on by the mere thought of x that suddenly he's begging me for it. And I know that y and z aren't far behind. I'm not sure why this happens. I think it's as much "I want you to make me do something I hate" as "I long to please you." But whatever it is, it's HOT. [8D] Oh yes! This is the holy grail, isn't it? The moments like this do SO make it worth it! Akasha

MzMia -> RE: Keeping a sub focused: It's not about you (4/30/2008 7:33:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MladyHathor quote: One of my biggest pet peeves about submissive men is their inability, at times, to think outside of their own fetishes and desires. How much effort should submissive men put into thinking about his partner's (or potential partner's) fetishes? The ongoing joke I have had is a submissive man telling his femdom partner as they get to know each other, "Well, enough about my fetishes. What do you think about my fetishes?" I really get turned off when its a scenario of " you can do this and this and this and this to me---does that turn YOU on?" hell no, but it sure as hell seems to turn you on! I believe that at least from what I see of many male submissives--they seem to think our fetish is doing whatever it is that gets THEM off---for Me that is so far from reality. Most of the conversations go straight to the strap on or some variation, and seldom if ever, what makes YOU happy, what do You like. I am not a new form of a sex toy! This does not happen to me any more Mlady, I refuse to listen to fantasies from men I have not talked to long enough to know them as a person, FIRST. Once they start that crap, they are talking to themselves. [:D] Makes my life soooooooooooo much better. quote: When do you think it's not worth the effort to try to get a submissive man to start to consider your fantasies, and not his? When early vanilla conversations contain this: " well if you had me, you could just f* me silly and release your tension" or " if you took my virgin ass, it would be all better", or something like " well the wittle boy will come and sit on Mommy's lap all naked and ready"-----PUHLEEZ why should I work to get him to ask, see, or be interested in Me?? I am not a My size Barbie! PREACH! SAY IT LOUD! To Me its commom courtesy, give and take, ask assimilate, ask assimilate, communication people.** quote: And submissive men - don't kid yourself -- really, there must be some situations where a femdom's fetishes just aren't that interesting to you. The problem I see here is that the boys already come with a do and don't do list--never mind what I want, never mind what My fetishes are- OR AREN'T RIGHT ON!!--there seems to be this assumption that because I am this, I MUST surely want to do that---I am NOT a check box, I am NOT a My size blow up Barbie, and I don't give a damn what you want shoved up your ass and down your throat! Unless the shoving is a fetish for Me. DENIAL IS NOT JUST A RIVER IN EGYPT! *What I am trying to say is not everyone Domina is in it for the sex or the strapons, our your damned fantasies--when a boy comes to petition Me, I do not assume, why do they?* CLUELESS!! LIGHTS ON, NO ONE HOME! WONDERFUL POST! [sm=banana.gif]

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