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Being outted? - 10/15/2005 2:16:17 AM

Lordskitten

Posts: 66
Joined: 10/12/2005
Status: offline

I'm not sure i understand the concern over being outted...While humilating and horrible i'm sure, why the panic? I've heard stories of people loosing their jobs, family, friends, home, everything. I can understand about the family and friends but the rest?
I lived in CA in a very prim and proper town for about 3-4 years (this place was so uptight they didnt even have drive thru's at fast food resturants) and there was a man that worked at the gas station..He always seemed so angry and sullen. I always tried to give him a friendly "hello, how are you today." and always usually recived the grunt and cold shoulder. Fine..Then one day this man...was a woman! I thought maybe it was just a 'costume' but as days went by he kept living as a woman, getting better and better at making HER appearnce real. And she was the happiest thing on earth after her transformation, no longer a cold man but a chatty wonderfully happy woman. Now she didnt loose her job over choosing to live her life this way, and no one seemed to harrass her at all because of it. Now i'm sure she didnt loose her job because its illegal to discriminate against sexual prefrence in the work place as long as it does not affect said work.

Now down to my question, WHY would being outted as a Dominant/submissive Sadist/masocist in a relationship cause one to loose their job?

Post #: 1

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 3:36:29 AM

kimmypuss

Posts: 47
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline

depends where you work, yes?

(in reply to Lordskitten)

Post #: 2

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 4:05:59 AM

Aileen68

Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline

Because people are for the most part close-minded and ignorant. Anything outside of what they consider "normal" is viewed as being frightening, deviant and worst of all contagious as if it's a disease. We live in America (the majority of us on this site)... one of the most uptight countries when it comes to missionary, lights off kind of sex. Can you just imagine the reaction if bdsm was really out in the open and in the workplace?

(in reply to Lordskitten)

Post #: 3

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 4:08:09 AM

ownedjulia

Posts: 218
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline

Yes you could lose your job.

Certain employeers (I'm thinking Government here) WILL fire you if they think you could be open to blackmail or intimidation.

_____________________________

~julia
owned slave and proud of it!

(in reply to Lordskitten)

Post #: 4

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 4:30:48 AM

LadyShoshin

Posts: 492
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Burlington, Ontario
Status: offline

I am not familiar with the labour laws in California, but here in Ontario, if a person has passed their "probation" period (usually 3 months) and is kept on, it is very difficult for an employer to fire someone who shows up on time, does the job and follows company policy. To fire someone for reasons that have nothing to do with job performance would wind the employer up in court.

However, if a person is within their probation period and the employer gets a call from a vindictive Dominant or submissive, the employer doesn't have to have any cause other than "Improper fit". The employer's prejudice's can cause a person to lose what they saw as a solid career opportunity.

Depending on the employer's strength of bias against the person's lifestyle, they can get overly picky about how the person does their job and slowly build a case to fire the more long term employee for "just cause".

Not only does the person lose a livlihood, but in the case of the probationary employee, if the person escorting them off the property lets it slip that the boss got a call about their lifestyle, the betrayal of trust can shatter a person emotionally.

If the person's job involves working with children or abuse victims, an employer learning about the employee's lifestyle can make a subjective value judgement about how publicity would affect the workplace and again find a reason to let the person go, or find ways to make the employee want to quit.

Nonconsensual "outting" can have serious long term effects on the ex employee, financial losses, possible loss of home and quality of life, emotional upheaval and breaking of trust causing paranoia to set in.

Having someone "outted" can make the BDSM community of that area nervous and suspicious. Not knowing who the viper is in the nest can produce a ripple effect of fear and mistrust in the local BDSM community.

Vengance "outting" is a serious matter.

_____________________________

PHLOX: “It’s unethical for a doctor to cause harm...I can inflict as much pain as I like.”

(in reply to Lordskitten)

Post #: 5

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 4:39:19 AM

RainGod

Posts: 230
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Hendersonville, NC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordskitten

I'm not sure i understand the concern over being outted...While humilating and horrible i'm sure, why the panic? I've heard stories of people loosing their jobs, family, friends, home, everything. I can understand about the family and friends but the rest?

The "panic" is likely from the fact that some jobs are very lucritive and representative of years in college preparing for a career which could be easily wrecked by such "outing". Losing any job is bad, including a gas station job, but losing a high paying career can be devastating.

As for losing their home and everything else... where do you fail to understand why that could be traumatic? Do these things not mean much to you? Some of us have invested not only major amounts of money into building our lives, but years and years of time and effort. I would say losing it all would be pretty scary.

quote:

I lived in CA in a very prim and proper town for about 3-4 years (this place was so uptight they didnt even have drive thru's at fast food resturants)<snip>

Trust Me when I tell you there are places here in the bible belt south where your town you spoke of would appear to be Sodom or Gomorrah, and the hollyrollers would literally force you out of town by ostrisizing you in many ways from the entire community until you were destroyed. Bigotry, especially religious bigotry knows no conscience when "fighting for the kingdom of heaven". sheesh.

quote:

Now i'm sure she didnt loose her job because its illegal to discriminate against sexual prefrence in the work place as long as it does not affect said work.

uh-huh. Maybe you're confused on the way some vanilla cowards who would fire someone over their sex life works. It is against t he law to fire them over that, But they will hunt, search, and downright fabricate a legal reason to fire someone, and succeed.

quote:

Now down to my question, WHY would being outted as a Dominant/submissive Sadist/masocist in a relationship cause one to loose their job?

Because some people like to single out those who are different than they and try to eradicate them altogether. Whatever the mask they wear... Nazism, Christianity, Communism, KKK, The Moral Majority, or a $.29 plastic Howdy Doody mask... the stench of self righteousness is always the same.

_____________________________

Love is a razor & I walk the line on that silver blade... slept in the dust with His daughter her eyes red with the slaughter of innocence... The evil that men do lives on & on.
~ Iron Maiden

(in reply to Lordskitten)

Post #: 6

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 5:28:34 AM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordskitten
Now down to my question, WHY would being outted as a Dominant/submissive Sadist/masocist in a relationship cause one to loose their job?

Because employeers can. In the same way they can fire for tattoos or not wearing a white shirt and a dark tie or for coming in with a blue suit. For some people, quality of work and productivity aren't as important as an employee cleaving to their prejudices. After all the Salvation Army went to court for the right to fire people who weren't Christians... and won. How is a person's religious belief make them unable to hand out MREs and water to flood victims?

It happens. Look at all the problems the White House gave Jack McGeorge by outing him.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to Lordskitten)

Post #: 7

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 5:30:43 AM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedjulia

Yes you could lose your job.

Certain employeers (I'm thinking Government here) WILL fire you if they think you could be open to blackmail or intimidation.

It's like the old "we can't have gays in the government."

Why can't you?

Because they could be blackmailed.

Why could they be blackmailed?

Because if we learned they were gay we'd fire them.

A classic example of circular logic

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to ownedjulia)

Post #: 8

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 5:40:02 AM

Lordskitten

Posts: 66
Joined: 10/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RainGod
The "panic" is likely from the fact that some jobs are very lucritive and representative of years in college preparing for a career which could be easily wrecked by such "outing". Losing any job is bad, including a gas station job, but losing a high paying career can be devastating.

As for losing their home and everything else... where do you fail to understand why that could be traumatic? Do these things not mean much to you? Some of us have invested not only major amounts of money into building our lives, but years and years of time and effort. I would say losing it all would be pretty scary.

Trust Me when I tell you there are places here in the bible belt south where your town you spoke of would appear to be Sodom or Gomorrah, and the hollyrollers would literally force you out of town by ostrisizing you in many ways from the entire community until you were destroyed. Bigotry, especially religious bigotry knows no conscience when "fighting for the kingdom of heaven". sheesh.

uh-huh. Maybe you're confused on the way some vanilla cowards who would fire someone over their sex life works. It is against t he law to fire them over that, But they will hunt, search, and downright fabricate a legal reason to fire someone, and succeed.

Because some people like to single out those who are different than they and try to eradicate them altogether. Whatever the mask they wear... Nazism, Christianity, Communism, KKK, The Moral Majority, or a $.29 plastic Howdy Doody mask... the stench of self righteousness is always the same. [/color] [/size]

I wasnt saying that loosing your home and assests wouldnt be a terrible thing...i'm saying WHY would you loose them? Yes people are close minded and as a group panic driven creatures. Yes they could harrass you to the point that you flee town. Yes you could give in and let everything happen exactly the way you say but why not stand up, and fight back? Hire a lawyer and sue the company that fired you for harassment and creating an unsafe workplace. Yea it might be hard to find a lawyer to represent you but not impossible i'm sure.

I never was trying to say that being outted isnt bad, it is i'm sure. Especially if you have a lot of ties you dont want to loose. All i'm asking is why you can loose a job over sexual prefrence? Are there legal options you can take to fight back?

(in reply to RainGod)

Post #: 9

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 5:40:43 AM

sting516

Posts: 505
Joined: 9/4/2004
From: long island, ny
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyShoshin

I am not familiar with the labour laws in California, but here in Ontario, if a person has passed their "probation" period (usually 3 months) and is kept on, it is very difficult for an employer to fire someone who shows up on time, does the job and follows company policy. To fire someone for reasons that have nothing to do with job performance would wind the employer up in court.

Lady Shoshin,

Unfortunately, here in the US many states are considered 'at will' states with regard to employment. What that means is one can be fired for just about any reason, so long as it doesn't affect a 'protected class' simply for their being a protected class.

Protected classes include, minorities, the handicapped, women, people over 40, sexual orientation, national origin. There may be others i'm not thinking of right now, but You get the general idea. With regard to the sexual orientation aspect, i believe that just has to do with gay/straight/transgender, but not things like BDSM...i could be mistaken on that.

sting

(in reply to LadyShoshin)

Post #: 10

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 5:47:06 AM

trj

Posts: 23
Joined: 1/9/2005
Status: offline

I was outed at work last February. A profile I had up on another site was found and circulated by a co-worker. It included pics of my face (and other body parts) and posts I had made on some "edgy" topics. I had always assumed that anyone who was on these sites shared the lifestyle and probably the need for discretion. Not so.

While my boss was alright (not very supportive but not damning either) she made two things clear:

The fact that I had made myself that vulnerable showed poor judgment ( in her opinion) for a manager and she did not want to see any more examples of it.

She was prepared to overlook it if it did not impact on my work or the reputation of the organization.

The truth is that it did impact on my performance for months. In "shunning" me, some of the staff effectively cut me off from the information I needed to do my job. I had always enjoyed good, cross department relationships--that came to an abrupt end with a great many of the people I worked with.

While a few people came forward to offer support, they were outnumbered by those who lost respect for me. Yes, I know, in theory their bigotry is their problem, in fact, it became mine.

That was last February. I am still dealing with the fall out.

So yes, even though in most jurisdictions employers can't fire you for being in the lifestyle-it can impact on your employment-if your performance suffers or if they are unhappy enough about your lifestyle to fire you without cause and just pay a few months severance.

trj

(in reply to RainGod)

Post #: 11

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 5:53:04 AM

girl4you2

Posts: 1622
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordskitten
I wasnt saying that loosing your home and assests wouldnt be a terrible thing...i'm saying WHY would you loose them? Yes people are close minded and as a group panic driven creatures. Yes they could harrass you to the point that you flee town. Yes you could give in and let everything happen exactly the way you say but why not stand up, and fight back? Hire a lawyer and sue the company that fired you for harassment and creating an unsafe workplace. Yea it might be hard to find a lawyer to represent you but not impossible i'm sure.

I never was trying to say that being outted isnt bad, it is i'm sure. Especially if you have a lot of ties you dont want to loose. All i'm asking is why you can loose a job over sexual prefrence? Are there legal options you can take to fight back?

not only could you lose your job, but if you're a custodial parent, you could lose custody of your children. sure, if you've got tens of thousands of dollars to hire an attorney, you could fight (and where i live, you'd lose--it's California), but what if you don't? it's not that easy to find a good pro bono attorney to take any kind of case, let alone one which involves people living an alternative lifestyle from the community norm.

(in reply to Lordskitten)

Post #: 12

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 6:38:26 AM

WickedKev

Posts: 305
Joined: 11/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordskitten

I'm not sure i understand the concern over being outted...While humilating and horrible i'm sure, why the panic? I've heard stories of people loosing their jobs, family, friends, home, everything. I can understand about the family and friends but the rest?
I lived in CA in a very prim and proper town for about 3-4 years (this place was so uptight they didnt even have drive thru's at fast food resturants) and there was a man that worked at the gas station..He always seemed so angry and sullen. I always tried to give him a friendly "hello, how are you today." and always usually recived the grunt and cold shoulder. Fine..Then one day this man...was a woman! I thought maybe it was just a 'costume' but as days went by he kept living as a woman, getting better and better at making HER appearnce real. And she was the happiest thing on earth after her transformation, no longer a cold man but a chatty wonderfully happy woman. Now she didnt loose her job over choosing to live her life this way, and no one seemed to harrass her at all because of it. Now i'm sure she didnt loose her job because its illegal to discriminate against sexual prefrence in the work place as long as it does not affect said work.

Now down to my question, WHY would being outted as a Dominant/submissive Sadist/masocist in a relationship cause one to loose their job?

Have a friend who is extremely well known in the lifestyle here who was outed and lost his job. He appealed for unfair dismissal and lost. He is now appealing to the Europeon court, and it has dragged on for years. I know Doctors, Policemen and teachers who if outted would lose everything. So yes it is a huge deal to be outted. For me personnaly I couldn't care less, I told everyone myself, but I am one of the lucky ones.

(in reply to Lordskitten)

Post #: 13

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 6:52:57 AM

Phoenixandnika

Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline

It would depend greatly on where you work. Some postions or jobs have what are called morality clauses as part of your empoyee packet. This is simply to keep their public appearance one of the accepted nature.

Granted many jobs can not "fire" for being outed as a member of the lifestyle,however; they could make your live miserable while your there. To me that is worse than being fired and it is totally legal.

The reality is people fear that which they do not understand and most not involved in alternative lifestyles do not understand them.

Nika{Phoenix}

_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."

(in reply to kimmypuss)

Post #: 14

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 6:55:54 AM

Phoenixandnika

Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline

*smiles*
Like you Kev I consider myself one of the lucky ones.
Granted when I was working within the school system I was very cautious about who know what about my personal life as far as co-workers went.

Nika{Phoenix}

_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."

(in reply to WickedKev)

Post #: 15

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 7:09:10 AM

Lordskitten

Posts: 66
Joined: 10/12/2005
Status: offline

Just wanted to thank everyone for the responces..This has given me a lot to think about. Thank you

.

(in reply to Phoenixandnika)

Post #: 16

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 7:34:47 AM

Tristan

Posts: 330
Joined: 5/31/2004
Status: offline

trj's story is a good reminder that for most of us, discretion is important. Professional reputations are easily tarnished by personnel problems not to mention alternative lifestyles.

(in reply to WickedKev)

Post #: 17

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 8:07:25 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Check out the NCSF- some people ARE fighting.

But I am not sure what you don't get about people wanting a fairly calm stable connected life versus drama and lack of income and possibly having everything torn away from them and having to fight forever to get it back?

Some things are worth fighting for, but I prefer to choose my battles. I support the activists we have and do what I consider best for myself. But I'm not an activist myself and I don't think it's worth ruining my life over- and I'm young with no serious issue of being outed!

(in reply to Lordskitten)

Post #: 18

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 8:30:36 AM

subbie333

Posts: 86
Joined: 9/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordskitten
Now down to my question, WHY would being outted as a Dominant/submissive Sadist/masocist in a relationship cause one to loose their job?

OK, here is *EXACTLY* how one can lose their job because of their involvemnet in BDSM. First, you decide to jump from the cyber BDSM world and enter the real BDSM world. You find out how expensive BDSM toys are and decide to get into leatherwork to make your own toys (and sell them as well). Through totally unrelated circumstances, you are looking for a job and the local Tandy Leather is looking to hire. You impress the store manager with your leatherworking skills and you are hired. Unbeknownst to you, the only other employee was telling the manager to not hire you. After 2 months, the store manager leaves unexpectly and after another month, the other employee officially takes over as the store manager. Oh, did i mention that this new manager is a Christian fundamentalist? And that she states verbally and in my employee review that BDSM products themselves are pornographic? And, that she says that all of us BDSM folks are going to Hell, and, that she has permission from corporate to fire me soley because of the leather products i make (something denied by her boss at corporate)? Strangely, within 2 weeks after she officially takes the title of manager, 3 letters from customers appear, complaining about my performance and attitude, and, i am fired. Not only did those 3 incidents not occur, but, strangely, i was not even working on *ALL* three dates quoted in the letters as when the incidents occurred. As a side note, the state DOL found that i did not do anything wrong and i was awarded unemployment benefits.

subbie_333

(in reply to Lordskitten)

Post #: 19

RE: Being outted? - 10/15/2005 8:30:52 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sting516
Unfortunately, here in the US many states are considered 'at will' states with regard to employment. What that means is one can be fired for just about any reason, so long as it doesn't affect a 'protected class' simply for their being a protected class.

Protected classes include, minorities, the handicapped, women, people over 40, sexual orientation, national origin. There may be others i'm not thinking of right now, but You get the general idea. With regard to the sexual orientation aspect, i believe that just has to do with gay/straight/transgender, but not things like BDSM...i could be mistaken on that.

sting

Quite true. One of those protected classes in religion, which is a federal statute. However, lack of religion is not protected and you can be (and I have been) fired for being an athiest and it is legal for an employer to do so anywhere in the US. Aren't loopholes fun. The odds of that little loophole ever being closed are small because as an athiest I'm part of one of the smallest minorities in America.

One of the reasons I began my own business was so that I would never have to deal with that crap again.

Even still discretion is a good idea anywhere public (and web sites most certainly ARE public). This is why there are no nude pics of myself (and never will be), I do not discuss the details of my sex life or my intimate relationships, I discuss various practical aspects about the lifestyle but that's as far as it goes. If my activity here were made public where I live, I'm sure it would cause me some problems, but because I have exercised that degree of discretion I think it would be manageable. This is the world we live in. Its like my grandfather told me when I was a kid, "There are two ways you can live your life, pretending the world is the way you wish it was, or dealing with the way it is. Now which way do you think is going to work best?"

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to sting516)

Post #: 20

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