RE: language and respect

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destined2serve1 -> RE: language and respect (5/5/2008 11:25:15 AM)
the word cunt has never set well in my ears either.... When Master uses it, it is always in a demeaning way and seems to roll out of his mouth in a distasteful tone; beyond even humiliating, almost repugnant. When others say the word, it just always seems to have the same mental responce in me.

Deliena -> RE: language and respect (5/5/2008 11:25:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dnomyar Deliena. Sorry to say but a tuppence is worthless here. Just like our dollar is there. Whatever you were saying in the second paragraph I agree with. LMAO!! You owe me a new keyboard.... and thank you :)

LotusSong -> RE: language and respect (5/5/2008 11:34:36 AM)
The women who are stupid enough to allow it, deserve it.

NakedOnMyChain -> RE: language and respect (5/5/2008 1:48:53 PM)
Someone I know made the mistake of jokingly calling me a c*** the other day. I let them know, in no uncertain terms, exactly how I felt about that. I told them never again. Only one person gets to call me that, and even then it has to be prenegotiated.

kallisto -> RE: language and respect (5/5/2008 7:26:13 PM)
It all depends on context, content and who's saying what. Words are just words. You put the meaning to them when you say them.

Smythe -> RE: language and respect (5/5/2008 7:28:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real_ For my part, I've been able to use the word fuck as virtually every possible part of speech within a one-minute span at one point in my life, so I'm not about to come down on someone for a little harsh language. A little off topic but there was a great scene in the TV show The Wire where two detectives were arriving at and looking at a crime scene and the only word in the entire scene was fuck, used as all parts of speech, not to mention questions, exclamations and answers. And yet they understood each other and so did the viewer. Smythe

LilMissHaven -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 4:30:04 AM)
To the deaf there is no such thing as context. At least I don't understand the difference in the way its spoken, how exactly does one say bitch or cunt or slut to a person they can't stand differently then to someone they actually like and care about? Many have tried to explain the difference but it all comes down to when I read your lips bitch is bitch, slut is slut and cunt is cunt and they hurt. I suppose thats why I have a whatever floats your boat attitude if someone chooses to hurt me in that manner I'll have nothing to do with them, I've taken it all my life and am done taking it. Now I know there are subs/slaves who really get off on being called names and I am glad that there are those out there who can give them what they need. The problem is we are often lumped into one catagory and those of us who don't appreciate it receive the same emails as those who do. I try to keep in mind that the person writing me cannot read my mind and does not know my feelings on humiliation so I give them the benefit of doubt, write back and explain in no uncertain terms that I don't appreciate being addressed by anything other then my given name by anyone who does not own me. In the process I've actually made some wonderful friends and have only had to place a very select few on ignore.

camille65 -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 5:48:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smythe Over the past couple of days I've read several posts from men who have used what I consider harsh language when referring to women in general or women they know. i.e. "he can do whatever he wants to his own bitches" and something with the c word which I don't really like to see outside of Henry Fielding and 18th century novels. Should women be referred to in this way? Is it OK for submissive women and not Dommes? Why don't women use similar language when referring to men (or maybe they do) ? Are standards different on a BDSM board than they would be in other places? I felt kind of offended but I am old fashioned about language. What do others think? Smythe Smythe, I detest crude language especially when it is used casually. When someone peppers their talk with words like that it makes me wonder, is their vocabulary really that limited?Have they no respect for others?Are they immune or ignorant to how it appears?Are they seriously lacking in education or the imagination required to find other words? I see it too, as laziness which is another trait I dislike. 'Vulgarity is a crutch for a crippled vocabulary'

OldBastardly1 -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 7:01:03 AM)
LMH, I see from your post that you are deaf. When people talk with you, you not only read their lips, but their expressions as well, I assume. Since we have so many words that sound the same but have different meanings, is it possible to interpret the real meaning in this manner? Does it help?

subtee -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 8:33:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong The women who are stupid enough to allow it, deserve it. Really? Do you mean this within a relationship dynamic or coming from a general public scenario? In a relationship context, that's really between the two of them, I don't think "deserve" fits. Coming from someone else, I don't feel like it's up to me to "allow" it or disallow it. It's the same to me as a car pulling out in front of me. It has to do with their reality not mine; it can't possibly be personal and I'll not take it that way. Therefore the only "allow" or disallow I would consider is if I'm going to allow it to bother me. And I'm not. Does that mean I "deserve" to be called a cunt?

OmegaG -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 8:43:35 AM)
I dated a PhD in Medievil English once. He detested the value that we put on the words today, mainly because he knew the evolution of many of the obscenitites that we use in English culture. Most of the obscenities as we know them now have their roots in the Anglo language, when the Norman's conqured and were the ruling class, the Anglos desired to appear more noble and part of the way they could do that was with language. Words that were not used by the Normans became vulgarities which simply meant common during the initial transition, as we progressed further away from the roots vulgar started to mean obscene and "common or lower class" language was considered profane (which initially had a different meaning too, but I digress). the words that are objected to are done so solely on social conditioning.

Lumus -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 2:44:41 PM)
When I read the following, it poked something in me regarding language, free speech, and its use, so I wanted to offer some contrasting comments. I like camille; she did bring up some things that felt as though they could use addressing, though, as they speak close to home regarding the spirit of this thread. quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 When someone peppers their talk with words like that it makes me wonder, is their vocabulary really that limited? This is a misnomer. Ware the assumptive tendency. I'm not a dull bulb, yet I curse at work like a motherfucker - over the payroll audit I do; over having to decompile, edit, and recompile data-driven executable programs; other fun things. The main drive behind the cursing is that I'm surrounded by turkeys...and truth be told, I'm not all that worried about offending them. quote: Have they no respect for others? True story: a woman overheard me say 'fuck' at work and proceeded to tell me, "What is your problem, young man; why do you curse like a heathen? It's ungodly!" To which I replied, "Ma'am, I find talk of religion at work offensive, because I happen to be a non-believer. Let's call it even, shall we?" Sadly, she didn't get it, in fact she tried to argue religion with me. A supervisor walked up and asked her why she was yelling at me when she was supposed to be at her seat working. She yelled at him... Is it any wonder I place emphasis at the translation end, rather than in the hands of the speaker? quote: Are they immune or ignorant to how it appears? Appearance should not dictate judgment, yet we do it all the time. Is it less offensive to pick at a person's choice of words or grammar, than to make a comment intended to provoke in a negative fashion? Intent goes both ways. quote: Are they seriously lacking in education or the imagination required to find other words? I can think of several people I know off the top of my head who never completed high school, yet still show more manners and respect than university grads. That has a lot to do with upbringing - so I could split the difference and agree if you meant social education. Even so, the ghost of intent lingers... Imagination isn't really a qualifier, either; people who are known creative geniuses may act with an eccentricity that makes them nonconformist and anti-social ahem. Nietzsche and Shakespeare have both used the term 'whore' in a derogatory fashion, even as they use the word to drive home a salient point. quote: I see it too, as laziness which is another trait I dislike. 'Vulgarity is a crutch for a crippled vocabulary' I have to ask, here - have you never been lazy; and when you are, do you curse like a motherfucker? [;)] Communication is a fluid thing, to be used and taken in more ways than even the communicator intended. That's a double edge; we are given more ways to consider and understand, even as we potentially lose our ability to appreciate what exactly happened. To me, the literal definition of 'lazy language' is truncations, abbreviations, and incomplete sentences that might otherwise grins

batshalom -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 3:30:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 Smythe, I detest crude language especially when it is used casually. When someone peppers their talk with words like that it makes me wonder, is their vocabulary really that limited? Good point, camille. If the swear word is the exception rather than the rule, I have no problem whatsoever with it, as long as it's used in a petname fashion (as stated in my earlier post). If swearing is typical, a staple of the vocabulary, I have no use for it.

lalbobbilynn -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 3:42:50 PM)
The vernacular i use on a day to day basis is usually a bit much; to the extent i am asked to "dumb it down." My internal response is: yeah, k WTF-ever! Now when i get intensely stressed (a direct result of my mother, or ex who i allow to spin me up) i tend to become ghetto fabulous, my word choice slips into super slang over-drive, my neck goes into a cobra roll, and i start smacking my lips, huffing about like i am choking on a fur ball!! If i am in a general conversation with a man, Dom or not, and such words are used to describe women, i tend to step my word choice up just to see how twisted i can get said man. i usually become the bitch in question at that point, and i do my utmost to thank said man for being able to articulate such a complex thought. Sheeeesh, i need a hobby! b.~

sublibrarian -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 4:27:09 PM)
As others have said it depends on context and who's saying it to who. I'm generally offended by the word cunt, I think it's a really derogatory way to refer to women. However, when Sir refers to me as cunt it's a little humiliating (in the good way) and it feels like a term of affection. He didn't call me that the first time we met though, it came later after we'd negotiated and gotten to know each other.

camille65 -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 4:52:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lumus When I read the following, it poked something in me regarding language, free speech, and its use, so I wanted to offer some contrasting comments. I like camille; she did bring up some things that felt as though they could use addressing, though, as they speak close to home regarding the spirit of this thread. quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 When someone peppers their talk with words like that it makes me wonder, is their vocabulary really that limited? This is a misnomer. Ware the assumptive tendency. I'm not a dull bulb, yet I curse at work like a motherfucker - over the payroll audit I do; over having to decompile, edit, and recompile data-driven executable programs; other fun things. The main drive behind the cursing is that I'm surrounded by turkeys...and truth be told, I'm not all that worried about offending them. which is why it's my opinion and stated as such, it actually stops me in my tracks and makes me wonder. quote:* Have they no respect for others? True story: a woman overheard me say 'fuck' at work and proceeded to tell me, "What is your problem, young man; why do you curse like a heathen? It's ungodly!" To which I replied, "Ma'am, I find talk of religion at work offensive, because I happen to be a non-believer. Let's call it even, shall we?" Sadly, she didn't get it, in fact she tried to argue religion with me. A supervisor walked up and asked her why she was yelling at me when she was supposed to be at her seat working. She yelled at him... Is it any wonder I place emphasis at the translation end, rather than in the hands of the speaker? it has nothing to do with religion and I have no idea how you translated my questioning respect as something religious. I think that swearing in the workplace IS a sign of disrespect but not because of any religion. quote:* Are they immune or ignorant to how it appears? Appearance should not dictate judgment, yet we do it all the time. Is it less offensive to pick at a person's choice of words or grammar, than to make a comment intended to provoke in a negative fashion? Intent goes both ways. I'm not picking at a person. I don't like casual vulgarity. It bores me, it irritates me but I don't usually react on the outside to it. A bit like an accent that grates upon your ears, do you ride it out or speak up and pick at them? quote:* Are they seriously lacking in education or the imagination required to find other words? I can think of several people I know off the top of my head who never completed high school, yet still show more manners and respect than university grads. That has a lot to do with upbringing - so I could split the difference and agree if you meant social education. Even so, the ghost of intent lingers... Imagination isn't really a qualifier, either; people who are known creative geniuses may act with an eccentricity that makes them nonconformist and anti-social ahem. Nietzsche and Shakespeare have both used the term 'whore' in a derogatory fashion, even as they use the word to drive home a salient point. I think this is the bit that actually riled you up because indeed I mean social education which tags right along with respectfully dealing with people and still maintaining your identity.Imagine to me is a qualifier. I am a lover of words and get great satisfaction from using them as well as satisfaction having them used towards me.It is my preference to be around well read and well spoken people. quote:* I see it too, as laziness which is another trait I dislike. 'Vulgarity is a crutch for a crippled vocabulary' I hope you noticed the quote marks around that?Yes I see it as being lazy. Taking the easy way out and not using self control. It takes a bit of effort to work the brain and call up other words. I have to ask, here - have you never been lazy; and when you are, do you curse like a motherfucker? [;)] Communication is a fluid thing, to be used and taken in more ways than even the communicator intended. That's a double edge; we are given more ways to consider and understand, even as we potentially lose our ability to appreciate what exactly happened. To me, the literal definition of 'lazy language' is truncations, abbreviations, and incomplete sentences that might otherwise We have differing definitions of laziness in the use of language. Abbreviations are not heard when speaking but 'fuck it rained all day' is heard. I am sorry that I sparked something unpleasant with my post, this is only how I see it. This is only how I feel about the topic of language and respect. Some people are unable to speak more than two sentences without swearing and I don't like to hear it. I think most of those words are trite and overused, thats all. [8\|] It isn't about free speech, it's about my view of language and respect. grins

Lumus -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 5:51:30 PM)
I'll preface this reply with the comment that my goal here is nothing more than to introduce different ideas; I left my asbestos suit in my other pocket. Language and respect can be an ugly cocktail because respect is not universally defined; there's no one way to look at it, and thus it turns into semantics, after a while. Sadly, discussion about opinions can turn unfriendly too quickly when there's varying views, never mind opposition... I don't like making big nesting quotes [that, and I promised Mod XI I'd stop doing that a while ago...] So I'll try to address your comments here in point form, camille, and I hope you appreciate it as the food for thought it's meant to be. "which is why it's my opinion and stated as such, it actually stops me in my tracks and makes me wonder" - shrugs You're entitled to your opinion. Do you ever wonder in the other direction and self-analyze? How do you handle a person with a large vocabulary cursing anyways? "it has nothing to do with religion and I have no idea how you translated my questioning respect as something religious. I think that swearing in the workplace IS a sign of disrespect but not because of any religion" - The anecdote was a comment on how respect works both ways. People too often challenge a behaviour based on personal mores without taking into account that their very judgment is as inappropriate and therefore disrespectful. More to the point, if I find talk of religion offensive, should I then carry that offense into a negative outlook of the person who is just expressing themselves as they see fit? Example: if swearing on the job is disrespectful, what's an actress to do when she plays the part of a foul-mouth? That's only meant as an example to demonstrate how the generalization of this can be misleading, nothing more. "I'm not picking at a person. I don't like casual vulgarity. It bores me, it irritates me but I don't usually react on the outside to it. A bit like an accent that grates upon your ears, do you ride it out or speak up and pick at them?" - It's good to know you don't pick at the person; my concern was more whether you were allowing the characteristic to colour your view of the person. To your question - I don't say anything unless it requires addressing. Example: working at a call centre, I hear lots of newbies end every sentence with a rising pitch to their voice, making everything sound like a question. This is nonconducive to the job at hand, so I will coach them by commenting, demonstrating, providing examples of better intonation. "I think this is the bit that actually riled you up because indeed I mean social education which tags right along with respectfully dealing with people and still maintaining your identity.Imagine to me is a qualifier. I am a lover of words and get great satisfaction from using them as well as satisfaction having them used towards me.It is my preference to be around well read and well spoken people." - No harm, no foul, and not riled. [;)] With the term social introduced, another can of worms opens up, since cultures vary in their general definitions of respect and manners. Again, you are naturally entitled to your preferences; if anything irks me, it's a general observation that people shy away from allowing themselves to appreciate things that do not line up with their personal preferences. It's a tip of the hat to "we condemn what we do not understand". "I hope you noticed the quote marks around that?Yes I see it as being lazy. Taking the easy way out and not using self control. It takes a bit of effort to work the brain and call up other words." - This statement kind of brings home to me what I saw in your previous post. What you are stating can sound less like a generalization, more as a condemnation. Specifically, swearing isn't always thoughtless ["the easy way out"] or a sign of lack of self-control. I don't think harder saying "fudge" around my son instead of "fuck". There's also the [however unintentional] inference that people who swear are dumber than people who don't...again, not true, and the historical examples are plentiful. "We have differing definitions of laziness in the use of language. Abbreviations are not heard when speaking but 'fuck it rained all day' is heard. I am sorry that I sparked something unpleasant with my post, this is only how I see it. This is only how I feel about the topic of language and respect. Some people are unable to speak more than two sentences without swearing and I don't like to hear it. I think most of those words are trite and overused, thats all. It isn't about free speech, it's about my view of language and respect." - I will be baffled until the day I die why I sound more emotionally charged than I am to most people...not just you, camille. I'm glad you stated how the topic is perceived by you, and my intent isn't to belittle your opinions in any way. I have a mental knee-jerk desire to give people new perspectives in just about everything, so I offer different perspectives; sometimes, I don't even agree with that different perspective, but I can acknowledge it and respect it. Call it a perpetual glance into "What if...?" It isn't meant to dilute, but rather enrich.

Smythe -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 9:36:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OmegaG I dated a PhD in Medievil English once. He detested the value that we put on the words today, mainly because he knew the evolution of many of the obscenitites that we use in English culture. Most of the obscenities as we know them now have their roots in the Anglo language, when the Norman's conqured and were the ruling class, the Anglos desired to appear more noble and part of the way they could do that was with language. Words that were not used by the Normans became vulgarities which simply meant common during the initial transition, as we progressed further away from the roots vulgar started to mean obscene and "common or lower class" language was considered profane (which initially had a different meaning too, but I digress). the words that are objected to are done so solely on social conditioning. That is probably true but it doesn't change anything. Language evolves and we have to see it in its context and for what it means to us, today. I think most people would agree that being called a bitch or a cunt is not a good thing, no matter what Henry Fielding or the Normans say. Smythe

LotusSong -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 11:16:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smythe Anyway, I still have this outstanding question which is why you don't see women calling men derogatory names nearly as much. Except for the Old Bastard guy who brought it on himself [&:] Smythe Oh heck, let me help you with with a few of my favorites: twat-llips, shit-for-balls, dickless, tea-bagger, no-nuts, the ever popular dumb-fuck, father-raper and mother fucker just to name a few :)

GreedyTop -> RE: language and respect (5/6/2008 11:46:46 PM)
I'm in the "the word only has the power over you that you give it" bunch. I could care less if some strange guy online, or on the street calls me by any derogatory term. The person means nothing to me, the words mean less. If someone I cared about (but was not intimate with) used any of the terms, the context would determine how I react. If it was Riff...well,... purrrrrr As far as terms for men: Dickhead, prick, fuckwad, bastard (hiya OB1!), pencil dick, needledick, pinky dick, etc. Although...on the occasions when a guy has tried to call me cunt, in an insulting manner I just reply "yes, I have one..what's YOUR excuse?"

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