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Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 12:07:16 PM   
DominantJenny


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Okay, so here's the thing. I really want to take my slave to the emotional place that crying comes from, but the man just doesn't DO that. I mean, in the 13 years we've been together, I've seen him really cry...oh...twice? Three times? Once when he grieved over his grandfather, when our son was born, and when we almost broke up once (I think he cried then; I was too busy crying myself to be sure.) He's gotten teary a few times at movies or songs, but VERY few; he had to be caught the right way AND in the right mood, and apparently that's a very rare thing.
We've done several scenes where I tried specifically for that goal, both verbalized to him and not, and, though he tries, he's never gone there. Part of the problem is that he is, by nature, a very confident and quite well-adjusted guy; there aren't a lot of buttons to push, y'know? And if pain was gonna do it, trust me, it would have by now.
So, for those of you not prone to tears (male or female, for that matter), what is your equivalent to crying? How might I know I've reached him that deeply, do you think? (I realize you aren't him, but anything is a hint I can pursue, you know.)

As for WHY...oh, there's just nothing like seeing that level of vulnerability, that defenselessness, that openness.
He says he's not holding back, but I don't feel that thing, that emotional state in him, and it frustrates the hell out of me.

It might be just the way it is, and I can (and have been) living with that...but I'm keeping my eye out, just in case, which is why I'm asking you for your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks,
Jen
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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 12:26:41 PM   
OmegaG


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I don't cry often.  I usually cry when I'm so pissed that I can't contain my emotions or when I'm so emotionally overloaded on several issues that I just burst, usually at a small seemingly unimportant trigger.

I would actually like to get taken to a point where I cry but I'm also not sure that it can happen.  I don't think that it's that I'm trying to remain stoic, I just think that it's the way I'm wired.

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Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 12:34:27 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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I dunno.  I'll cry from pain in a scene with no problem, but I've only cried emotionally during the aftercare where the connection overwhelms me...and that's really rare.

I'd say not to make crying the goal.  If you are both where you want to be, the specific response of crying doesn't seem to be important. 

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 12:44:06 PM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

I don't cry often.  I usually cry when I'm so pissed that I can't contain my emotions or when I'm so emotionally overloaded on several issues that I just burst, usually at a small seemingly unimportant trigger.

I would actually like to get taken to a point where I cry but I'm also not sure that it can happen.  I don't think that it's that I'm trying to remain stoic, I just think that it's the way I'm wired.


I've hesitantly concluded that that's the way he's wired, too, but I want to be sure...as sure as I can be, anyway.
I know he's not trying to remain stoic...poor guy desperately wants to give me what I want, but faking it just doesn't work, of course.

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 12:47:18 PM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I dunno.  I'll cry from pain in a scene with no problem, but I've only cried emotionally during the aftercare where the connection overwhelms me...and that's really rare.

I'd say not to make crying the goal.  If you are both where you want to be, the specific response of crying doesn't seem to be important. 


You'd think a guy who wasn't initially into pain would be likely to cry from it, but he's taking some VERY high levels of pain without going there.

Hrm. I think there is a deeper disconnect at issue, really. I want to see him even more vulnerable...and he just plain isn't that vulnerable, maybe. Gah.

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 12:57:10 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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How do you define "vulnerable"? 

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 1:03:42 PM   
Shawn1066


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Lets see...  I've cried three times from pain and countless times from ultimately meaningless little things.

I'm far more emotionally open around my Owner than I am elsewhere.  This is because I am an emotional person by nature, and she's probably the only person I can express myself emotionally in front of and it all be OK.  If I wasn't an emotional person in the beginning, I doubt I'd cry at all.

I do always feel very close to her when I'm crying...whether it's the first time she pushed me to it while I was tied up, or when she asked me to marry her.


DV's Fox

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 1:05:48 PM   
Madame4a


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

How do you define "vulnerable"? 


This is a good question... perhaps if seeing him more vulnerable is the point, you should open up to other avenues...

my boi cries almost every time we play... I don't seek it... I have a positive reaction to it (its obviously more than that, but I'm not sharing all that) -- I'm not sure its the only sign of vulnerability though...

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 1:06:39 PM   
OmegaG


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I see crying as extremely vulnerable because it's raw emotion and emotion that in this society one doesn't go around showing.  We learn in the culture that crying shows weakness and it's to be hidden and one must never show another that they are weak.

It's also a flood gate for me (pun not really intended) once the waterworks start to flow the emotion behind them is unleashed and alot of stuff that I'd squashed down comes to the surface.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 1:27:54 PM   
AAkasha


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I can give you some advice based on my own experiences..but since I don't know you or your sub I do have to warn you that really, really, really make sure you are prepared for what happens next -- is he going to be ok afterward?  Some guys get very weirded out after they break down emotionally, when it's not in their control, and need lots of care and nurturing afterward if they feel a loss of self respect, or feelings of self doubt or confusion.  But yeah, it's hot -- and I love that vulnerability too...

In my experience, very few men cry from pain or desperation of most kinds.  What gets them there is more a feeling of hopelessness or despair.  I'll try to explain as best I can.  I've found that for one thing, it takes time - a long, drawn out and intense session that climbs a ladder of intensity.  So you have to be emotionally prepared also for the long haul, and don't see it as a "goal" to get him to cry, instead, just always have in the back of your mind that some day, after one of those long scenarios, it might happen.  The hopelessness/despair, also, are NOT "real" feelings per se, just as there's no real fear in a haunted house but your body still reacts the same; you can get a man to this place if you work hard and keep at it.

I've found that the submissive must be in a position of emotional uncertainty - a kind of raw, unsure place - based on how he views me.  I can get super sadistic and very unrelenting when I am in the right place, and my partner has to be emotionally at a place where he's not quite sure what he's dealing with.  With that in mind, it usually happens if I am doing something NEW that I have never done to him before, and it shows a new level of cruelty or intensity.

Another factor that plays into it is a clear sense of "mercilessness" if that makes sense.  Again, the objective is to get him to a place of "hopelessness" (that breeds vulnerability and a sense of smallness, of fear, of total nakedness) -- he has to feel like he's really in a very precarious place.  What I found triggers the actual crying is a moment where he might feel like he's going to get back some control or some grounding, and it's pulled out from under him.  This might be related to him being forced to endure an act, or do something, that he thought was going to be spared.  That goes back to the sense of the femdom being merciless  -- kind of like, "I can't believe you are actually doing this to me."

Now I'm being vague about what "it" is -- because that just depends on the submissive and what acts he responds to.  It always will depend on that.  The way to trigger the crying is to build on those acts and use momentum and escalation, combined with a fierce, selfish and unrelenting hunger/attitude, to get him to that naked, vulnerable place where he feels that hope is lost and he's truly naked and in that very scary place. 

Emotionally, I've found that the plateau I'm talking about is very, very palpatable, if that makes sense - and maybe other femdoms know what I am talking about.  Emotionally, it's the same as having very good sex when you know the guy is just on the edge of cumming.  Emotionally, you feel as though you could give a tiny, tiny shove to push him over -- and that's all it takes. It's just one line, one word, or one "look" and he breaks down.  You know it when you are there. 

It's probably the most intense, most scary, most amazing part of power exchange -- hard to get to, but well worth it.  Just please make sure you are emotionally connected enough with your partner to take the steps needed to make things good once you finish.  I think it's the most intense thing you can share.


Akasha


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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 1:33:34 PM   
sambamanslilgirl


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i must have a knack for making my pet cry because i push his jealousy/anger buttons to the point he's a blubbering baby. i merely think of scenarios which make him jealous off the top of my head ...and keep going until i hit the right one. sometimes i tend to drag it out while others i instantly hit without him expecting it.

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 1:43:43 PM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

How do you define "vulnerable"? 


Feeling completely open, unable to close off/protect oneself (hmm. I think maybe that's part of it; I think he never feels incapable of protecting himself...)...pleading, hoping/wanting to be able to trust because you HAVE to trust whether you can or not...

Something like that.

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 1:45:16 PM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

Lets see...  I've cried three times from pain and countless times from ultimately meaningless little things.

I'm far more emotionally open around my Owner than I am elsewhere.  This is because I am an emotional person by nature, and she's probably the only person I can express myself emotionally in front of and it all be OK.  If I wasn't an emotional person in the beginning, I doubt I'd cry at all.

I do always feel very close to her when I'm crying...whether it's the first time she pushed me to it while I was tied up, or when she asked me to marry her.

DV's Fox


It's weird, because he does HAVE an emotional side like that, but it so rarely comes out, takes really extraordinary stuff for him to get that emotional...*sigh* It may just be a wiring thing. Thanks.

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 1:46:42 PM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Madame4a

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

How do you define "vulnerable"? 


This is a good question... perhaps if seeing him more vulnerable is the point, you should open up to other avenues...

my boi cries almost every time we play... I don't seek it... I have a positive reaction to it (its obviously more than that, but I'm not sharing all that) -- I'm not sure its the only sign of vulnerability though...


Answered as best I could. Like what other avenues are you thinking of?

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 1:48:46 PM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

I see crying as extremely vulnerable because it's raw emotion and emotion that in this society one doesn't go around showing.  We learn in the culture that crying shows weakness and it's to be hidden and one must never show another that they are weak.

It's also a flood gate for me (pun not really intended) once the waterworks start to flow the emotion behind them is unleashed and alot of stuff that I'd squashed down comes to the surface.


Yeah, that. Myself, I cry relatively easily, but it's still a floodgate. For him, I don't think the floodgate effect would be/is there, but the rest applies...I think. At any rate, that's what I want to see from him...raw emotion...weakness.

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 1:51:41 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Perhaps instead of thinking of the short term immediate impact, perhaps you should think of long term, slow burn?  Do you literally want the crying?  Or do you want him to learn to express himself more emotionally in an ongoing basis?  Do you want him to cry because he's open, or because he's overwhelmed?  You're talking about a lot of complex emotional processing here and with us not knowing anything really about him or you it's not something to easily give advice on.  Mostly what we can do is help define what you really want and open you up to other options and possibilities.

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 2:02:14 PM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I can give you some advice based on my own experiences..but since I don't know you or your sub I do have to warn you that really, really, really make sure you are prepared for what happens next -- is he going to be ok afterward?  Some guys get very weirded out after they break down emotionally, when it's not in their control, and need lots of care and nurturing afterward if they feel a loss of self respect, or feelings of self doubt or confusion.  But yeah, it's hot -- and I love that vulnerability too...

*snip for brevity* 

It's probably the most intense, most scary, most amazing part of power exchange -- hard to get to, but well worth it.  Just please make sure you are emotionally connected enough with your partner to take the steps needed to make things good once you finish.  I think it's the most intense thing you can share.

Akasha


Thank you. I can't imagine getting better advice, really. Don't worry, I'm good at aftercare and we are intensely connected. We've had our share of things gone awry and such to test that. One thing I know is that he's not at ALL macho...it's not that kind of not-crying at all. He's totally comfortable in his skin as a sensitive guy and would never be ashamed of crying...he just doesn't do it much.

I've read what you wrote several times to make sure I'm not missing anything; I think I can safely say that I HAVE done all of that, just as you describe, in scenes that took hours...and ultimately I gave in before we hit that place. Maybe I just don't have endurance to keep it up long enough, I don't know. It would seem like we were getting there and then somehow, without my changing anything about where it was going or how I was being, etc, it would suddenly slip back down.
Sometimes, we have problems with nervous laughter on his part, or, at other times, starting to get violently angry (I'd have to have him in VERY serious bondage to deal with when he gets like that, and I generally don't do bondage.)
I've tried to keep going through the nervous laughter, but I think it gives him enough release that I might as well give up then and there. And how do you stop nervous laughter?

Oof. Thanks.

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 2:05:10 PM   
DominantJenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Perhaps instead of thinking of the short term immediate impact, perhaps you should think of long term, slow burn?  Do you literally want the crying?  Or do you want him to learn to express himself more emotionally in an ongoing basis?  Do you want him to cry because he's open, or because he's overwhelmed?  You're talking about a lot of complex emotional processing here and with us not knowing anything really about him or you it's not something to easily give advice on.  Mostly what we can do is help define what you really want and open you up to other options and possibilities.


Sometimes I think I literally want the crying, sometimes I think any (nonviolent) raw emotion would do. He's not really emotionally restrained, is the thing. He's just terminally laid back, at least, so I have generally concluded.
Hrm. Honestly, either would work for me.
*nod* I'm not reluctant to talk about us, but, you know, that gets long. I'll take whatever help I can get!

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 2:08:51 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Perhaps instead of thinking of the short term immediate impact, perhaps you should think of long term, slow burn?  Do you literally want the crying?  Or do you want him to learn to express himself more emotionally in an ongoing basis?  Do you want him to cry because he's open, or because he's overwhelmed?  You're talking about a lot of complex emotional processing here and with us not knowing anything really about him or you it's not something to easily give advice on.  Mostly what we can do is help define what you really want and open you up to other options and possibilities.


Sometimes I think I literally want the crying, sometimes I think any (nonviolent) raw emotion would do. He's not really emotionally restrained, is the thing. He's just terminally laid back, at least, so I have generally concluded.
Hrm. Honestly, either would work for me.
*nod* I'm not reluctant to talk about us, but, you know, that gets long. I'll take whatever help I can get!


Responses to nervous laughter:
Stare at him. Stone cold. Say "You find this funny?"  Or a good response to laughter of any kind is to emotionlessly respond with a short sentence or total silence. Just stare.  When someone is laughing and no one else joins in, or smiles, or encourages it, it makes them feel stupid or awkward - that's human nature.  His laughter will be uncomfortable for him if you do not react in any way that encourages is.
Hurt him when he laughs - sudden, bad pain.  Whatever he responds to best - the kind of pain he does not like
Or, gag him -- use a tight gag, add duct tape over the gag, do whatever you take to totally eliminate it.

Akasha


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Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

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RE: Crying and the (my) male submissive. - 5/7/2008 2:23:28 PM   
amerose


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nervous laughter is a release of embarrassment. Increase the embarrassment to get it up to the next notch - which can be shaking

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