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Zero Sum Game? - 5/7/2008 10:52:58 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		A zero sum game is where is someone else to get something you must lose something.

I think many people unconsciously operate their relationships this way and it is sad and destructive.  One of the mods deleted a thread the other day that got me thinking about this and so I wanted to post something about it.

Punishment plays into this a lot.  "She did this so I am going to do that to her", or "my master did this to me and now I hate him" and of course "she did something and I want to find a suitable punishment.  ALL of those are the wrong questions.  They are about getting even or making sure your partner doesn't get one over on you.

So many of the posts you can see the little score card each partner is keeping on who is getting what and collecting resentments along the way.  Many of the communication issues we see are along these lines.  "Can I talk to master about something that is making me insecure and doubting the relationship"  Huh?  Why would you be with someone who didn't want to talk about an issue like that?  If you are always insecure and blame your partner it is the same thing, work WITH them, together to deal with your issue.

Relationships SHOULD be a team against all comers.  Some teams have captains, some don't, but the point is that you should look to each other for support and feel that you only win if you all win.

I am tired and this isn't perhaps as clear as it should be but there it is.
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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/7/2008 10:58:38 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		I get it and I agree.  People should focus less on how they "should" feel and deal more with how they actually feel.  There is no specific right or wrong, within certain limits, and it's a shame people aren't more okay with themselves.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/7/2008 10:58:57 PM   
hopelesslyInvo


Posts: 522
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: the future
Status: offline 		it's still fine to keep track of points though right?

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great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/7/2008 11:03:34 PM   
HerLord


Posts: 697
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline 		It is as clear as mud. Yet in the mud I can read the message. It read to me something like... "Don't be fucking stupid." Being in a relation ship is just that. Being IN a relationship. Too many times we hear here the beaten mindless whimperings of the ones who are only by a relationship. They winge about how one did this or that but never even own up to the simplest of realities that the issues that wrecked them had never been discussed. HOW THE HELL CAN ANY ONE FIX SOMETHING< IF THEY DON"T KNOW IT"S BROKE? Fuck People think about wha tyou are doing. This "life" aint a game. It is the only life you have. To fill it with disgruntlement because you are too fucking apothetic to do something to change something you don't like... well, this is why people like me tell people like this that htey get what they deserve when they get dumped or worse.

OWN YOUR DECISIONS PEOPLE!

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"People as a whole think they want to hear the truth, until they hear it." -Stormism

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/7/2008 11:19:03 PM   
rook42


Posts: 110
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		"I'm Rook42, and I approve this message" :P

Seriously, though... I dig this thread.

Sometimes I think economics is overlooked, when dealing with relationships between individuals. Relationships are not about a single incident or problem... They are repeated interactions, and the little things add up. "Winning" an argument- or even "fixing" a problem- is actually deleterious, if it's done without a regard for the relationship as a whole. 

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 12:36:20 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		I had been holding off writing this post for so long cause I was worried about possible back lash and then all the unspoken rules that I would be breaking and all the Images of Perfection I would be shattering. But well Michael has a way of touching on subjects that I just can't bring myself to leave alone.

If this is offensive to you....... well maybe you should stop taking yourself so fucking seriously and take a LONG HARD LOOK and what is really there.

I am not the end all be all of BDSM, there are so many facets that anyone can really do just about anything they want and call it BDSM and there will be one person who could agree with them so just consider this my Manifesto.

S&M and BD Aside D/s is about a relationship, Not about a Fetish and not about a series of Kinks one must preform. Often I see these terms getting mixed up and the Newbies who flock to find questions like "Is this Normal or Okay?" Answered by those in the Know.

First off, No one here no matter how experienced can speak for someone else because the Dynamic is different, which means all you arrogant types will stop reading now and start to make your comments based on this one sentence.

The rest still following along this here is what I mean. I have no idea if it is okay if your Master has you lick his Balls while he jerks off to nude pictures of Bea Arthur, I have no idea because I'm not you. I don't know Him and I most likely never will beyond this Forum of BDSM Banter. So Guess what any answer I get is simply an opinion. Now I know this isn't the BASE of what Michael is asking but mind you it does tie in.

Those who seek a "Proper Punishment" or Keep Score on who Fucked up Last, or Make sure every mistake a girl or boy makes is properly and throughly punished usually don't even know WHY they are doing it.

Do you have any fucking clue how many times I have heard the words ..... "Well ain't I supposed to?"

Supposed to What? What is a DOM or a MASTER or a MISTRESS or a DOMINA SUPPOSED TO DO? Last I heard lots of assholes have tried to write how-to books on the subject and still no one agrees so as far as I know we kinda make up our minds as we go along. People what would you do without the Internet? where would you ask these asinine questions? Where would you have come up with this retarded idea that you are SUPPOSED to do any god damned thing?

For those of you who have read my journal you know that the person who helped me learn about this thing that I am made sure I discovered everything I could not just the things that HE was interested in and always made sure I looked up every possible way to do the things that I did enjoy because he wanted me to be ME not some carbon copy of himself.

Guess what Ladies.... Men..... Yeah they Lie, But SO DO YOU. there is no straight answer, I have lied before and I always had what I thought was a good reason and as time went on what was originally told as a lie wasn't a lie anymore I just didn't REALLY know how I felt about that. So today I work real hard at always being honest. Does this make me Special some how? Not in the least it makes me HUMAN and well none of us are perfect.

It makes me SICK when I see so many people say "leave the guy" "He's Married with a Family and is just going to hurt you" It makes me sick because you know NOTHING about the situation other than the one side, mind you the HURT side, and unless you know them in person you don;t even know if you can trust the person who said it. All that aside since when it is the BEST SOLUTION to walk away from anything? I was always taught to complete anything I start, that doesn't mean she stays with him it means she needs to go for ANSWERS and get them before deciding if she can life with those answers. Then beyond that just cause he gets Angry doesn't make him Abusive, having once been accused of being abusive I get very cautious around that word. It should not be used unless the person is being ABUSED not because you don't like the way the Man in handleing it

So how does this tie in do you ask to the OP?

Well you see the Zero Sum Game doesn't always stop with the relatioship. That Bitter Bitter Bitter women will now go and since she can find happiness with spit venom of nastiness to the one asking the question because all they can relate to is thier own misery. When you cant hurt the one who hurt you anymore you find ways to help others be miserable with you..... THIS is where the Phrase Misery Loves Company came from. Those who are Jaded have no business giving lovers advice. To those who ask for advice ask yourself the next time someone suggests you leave if the person who suggested you leave is in a current relationship. If they aren't ask yourself why? Then ask yourself why you are taking relationship advice from someone who was unable to make and maintain a relationship?

Some people think I am blind to the reality of situations, I'm really not, YES all the horrible things they say CAN BE TRUE, however there is always a chance that it isn't however if you get it in your head that they are right that you should just end it you are left sitting there and never knowing if it could work.

The Zero Sum Game is something that only people who are miserable and want to stay miserable want to play, Everything needs to be just right or it just isn't worth it now is it?

ANDI FUCKS UP ALMOST DAILY!!! This is NOT an exageration, But we are working on it. Why?? Well because SHE IS FUCKING WORTH MY TIME, That is why we started dating in the first place. You see I finally cared about something more that I cared about myself and to this day that has made all the difference.

If you want a reason to do something or if you have to make sure every action is accounted for then Make the reason Happiness and make every action one that makes sence to you. If you don't know why you are doing something then there is a chance that you are doing it because someone told you you should.

BE YOUR OWN PERSON.

Steel

**Who is REALLY tired so this May or May not have made any sense at all and if it doesn't well send me a C-Mail and ask me to clearify what didn't make sense**

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Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 1:19:54 AM   
HerLord


Posts: 697
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
, which means all you arrogant types will stop reading now and start to make your comments based on this one sentence.


Well dammit! How the hell am I "sposed" to know when to stop If some of these dam Dom Don't tell me. I mean Jesus. If you would all just make a set of rules and agree on shit, then I could learn them and be just like what I see on the telly. AND, IF you Dom/me/Master/Lords/and keepers would all just tell us what to do and when to do it then we lowly subtypes could just quiver with the knowledge that we have everything known to us and all is expected and nothing is spontanious or original and we would all be "normal", THEN you bitchy whiny non REAL types wouldn't have to suffer the idiocies of us slave/sub/pieces of shit types that come here to bitch at you TWUE superior types.


LMFAO

*sorry, had to do it. Don't ya just love these types*

PERSONNAL ACCOUNTABILITY FUCKHEADS!
*Glad to hear Andi Is making you smile and vice versa*

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"People as a whole think they want to hear the truth, until they hear it." -Stormism

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 1:50:41 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		It's not a zero-sum game, but it is a prisoner's dilemna metagame.

By which I mean: The choice is on both partners whether to treat it as a zero-sum game. If EITHER partner treats it as a zero-sum game, then the other partner loses, horribly, unless they also treat it as a zero-sum game - in which case both parties are stuck playing a zero-sum game. So the payoff matrix looks like:

                                           B chooses Zero-Sum                                                                      B chooses to be positive
A chooses Zero-Sum            Zero-Sum Game, may the most vicious jerk win!                            A abuses B
A chooses to be positive       B abuses A                                                                                    Loving, stable relationship so far.

The other problem is, once either party chooses to defect, the whole game gets de-railed, and gets forced permanently into an abuse-or-zero-sum configuration. So you pretty much have to trust that both partners will NEVER see a reason to defect - which is not going to happen - which ITSELF is a reason to defect, which is one of the reasons WHY it's not going to happen. So what do you do?

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 1:57:01 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I seem to be in pretty good company in this thread, so I'll toss a few coins in the fountain.

I read the greatest little thing yesterday, and oddly enough, I see it applying here.  Rather simple. really.  It went something like this:  "Love is a strange game.  Either both people win or nobody does."

Now, I'm not getting into the debate of whether love is a necessity in a BDSM dynamic or not, and I'm certainly not saying that all relationships only involve two people.  What I'm saying is the basic concept applies.  Where I'm going with this is that scorecard that some people hold onto, to see if they have more or less 'points' than the partner, well, it just doesn't work that way.  Rather, it would be My opinion that, if you're having to keep score, it's time to take a look at the rules you're playing the game by, who you're playing it with, and probably a look at yourself, too.

I've never fully understood the concept where two (or more) people are involved in some type of dynamic, that they've chosen to be in, and yet there is an issue when it comes to communicating.   Sure, in your personal set up there might be certain ways to approach and all of that, but at the end of the day, shouldn't there be some way to talk to the person that you're spending your life with?  The boards here are a fantastic outlet, and I've brought more than a thought or two to them Myself, but those same topics get discussed right here at home.

That thing about punishment playing into it, where folks are keeping that scorecard and using it against each other, is directly related to why I don't care to use the term much these days.  The definition is entirely too broad and the interpretations too varied.  Literally, I was looking at a thread not too long back where the question seemed to be what was the appropriate punishment for someone who had a mental breakdown.  If that's the concept of 'punishment', I think I'll pass.

Literally, one of the best analogies I ever heard about keeping a scorecard in a relationship (no matter what kind) was a simple as a potato.  Imagine for a second, that those little 'points' you're holding against someone, instead of putting them on your scorecard, you had to get a potato.  One you had to carry with you everywhere.  That would be fine for a while, just something you carry around with you, but after a while, it would start to rot.  It would, in time, start to decay, and become just as black as the way a person feels inside for all those things we carry around with us, inside, that we hold against another person.  Personally, I don't want that to be how My relationships work.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 5:20:55 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Perfectly clear to me, Michael...and a very good point. But, you have to realize that most people operate on a day to day basis from a base of fear. Most of what they do, they do because they are working to reassure themselves they are of value....at another's expense. We were taught, and we're passing it on, that this is the way things work. Well, it might be how people get by, but it's not the way things SHOULD work. However, as we all know, change is often difficult. And, well, fear is SCARY, especially when you're talking about base fears like "am I worthy of love" or "should I even exist".

Recognizing that a person is in a certain place and having compassion for them is sometimes hard. But, most of us have been where they are. Trying not to dislike in them what we dislike(d) in ourselves IS hard, but it's the only way we teach each other anything at all. I know I've learned a hell of a lot in my time here, asking questions like that that you're talking about. I think a lot of us have.

Master Fire


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The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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BDSM How-To Books

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 5:56:54 AM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline 		Yep. The one time my relationship hit a serious trouble spot, that was exactly the problem; we'd gotten into the habit of seeing each other in an adversarial way. Since then, it's been one long emphasis on team.

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 5:58:22 AM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline 		I have been away from CM for a few months, doing some soul searching, mostly asking myself the question "am I really a submissive"?  My relationship with my Owner started vanilla, and we made the mutual decision to enter the realm of bdsm, with an Owner/pet relationship several months back.

Repeatedly I would see him hold our relationship up and measure it. Repeatedly one or both of us falls short. I am not submissive enough. He is not dominant enough. We are not doing enough. By whose standards are we to be measured? Is there a tribunal to which we are accountable for our D/s activity. At some point we will be placed on a scale and weighed? Will a taste tester come past and lick us, declaring us to be vanilla to the core?

Without the internet, what basis for comparison would we have?  Would we make it up as we go and settle into what was comfortable for us, regardless of what anybody else thought?  Most likely.  Who cares if in comparison do Dom and Slave X that it appears that we have little more than a kinky sex life.... if he feels dominant in that role, and I feel submissive, and that makes us both happy .... isn't that all that matters?

I find it goes beyond keeping personal score cards of what happens within the actual relationship, he did this, she did that, so in return this is due/owed.  It expands to encompass the comparisons of ourselves to other relationships that we read about or are exposed to, not just on the internet but within the community at events etc.

So why do we compare our score cards against others playing the same game?  And why do other's feel they have the right to judge our "score"?

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 6:04:17 AM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		If I'm reading you right you are suggesting that people use a "give and take" thought process towards relationships, in order to give someone has to take or in order to get someone has to take from you.

I like the "give and get" thought process better, he gives and I get or I give and he gets or sometimes we both give and we both get... That way everyone wins rather then there being a looser and a winner balance that has to be maintained.

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Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 6:18:55 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Some people prefer not winning.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 6:27:05 AM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I prefer always winning.  But then I cheat at Monopoly.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 6:44:42 AM   
deliteme


Posts: 34
Joined: 5/2/2008
From: Melbourne AUstralia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

By whose standards are we to be measured? Is there a tribunal to which we are accountable for our D/s activity. At some point we will be placed on a scale and weighed? Will a taste tester come past and lick us, declaring us to be vanilla to the core?

Without the internet, what basis for comparison would we have?  Would we make it up as we go and settle into what was comfortable for us, regardless of what anybody else thought?  Most likely.  Who cares if in comparison do Dom and Slave X that it appears that we have little more than a kinky sex life.... if he feels dominant in that role, and I feel submissive, and that makes us both happy .... isn't that all that matters?


So why do we compare our score cards against others playing the same game?  And why do other's feel they have the right to judge our "score"?



This lifestyle isn't like getting a driving license.... there isn't a single book of rules...a set of "Thou shall..."requirements, a written test and a driving test before you get a let loose on an unsuspecting person....

No..it is more like cooking.... you take a basic plain cake recipe..  you decide to spice it up a little, maybe add some chocolate pieces, a handfull of nuts, change the sugar used, use butter instead of margerine... and once its cooked, you ice  and decorate it with pretty designs, flowers and so on. And each of us starting with the SAME basic recipe will come up with a different cake...each to our own taste, some spicy, some alcholic, some plain, some almost too overbearing with flavours and extras. And who is the judge of this cake? Me - its my cake...I am the one eating it...so I am the judge.  I am not eating your cake, so how can I judge it?? I do not have your taste buds, your wants, needs, desires...

The zero sum game is when you cook the cake and toss it out before eating it .... lots of effort and no reward. A waste of food, time and effort....


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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 7:03:43 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Some people prefer not winning.


Can you expand that a bit?

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 7:26:24 AM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
I have no idea if it is okay if your Master has you lick his Balls while he jerks off to nude pictures of Bea Arthur, I have no idea because I'm not you.

[Snip!]

Here ya go: http://flickr.com/photos/docinaustin/2218075444/


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Don't believe everything you think...

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 7:26:53 AM   
BRNaughtyAngel


Posts: 1821
Status: offline 		I remember going through a soul searching phase a few years back, trying to figure out the whole man/woman/relationship thing.  I read so many relationship books it was mind boggling, but most of them had very similar points to make about men and women, and how they think and act before, during and after a relationship.

One of the things that was addressed was score-keeping, and how men and women place different values on stuff.  If I remember correctly, the idea was that women see each act as a single point, whereas men assign higher point values to certain acts.

It pretty much sets the other up for disappointment or failure because it is focusing solely on the individual and the action, rather than on the relationship. 

It happens all the time - ~I took the garbage out last night, so she can't say anything about me going out with the boys for beer tonight.  I gave him a blowjob this morning so he won't say anything about me going to the spa and having my hair and nails done. ~

Great thread!

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RE: Zero Sum Game? - 5/8/2008 7:27:35 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
So many of the posts you can see the little score card each partner is keeping on who is getting what and collecting resentments along the way.  Many of the communication issues we see are along these lines.  "Can I talk to master about something that is making me insecure and doubting the relationship"  Huh?  Why would you be with someone who didn't want to talk about an issue like that?  If you are always insecure and blame your partner it is the same thing, work WITH them, together to deal with your issue.

Relationships SHOULD be a team against all comers.  Some teams have captains, some don't, but the point is that you should look to each other for support and feel that you only win if you all win.


That is the thing that I have never understood about posts like that. Some people seem to view their partners as though they are somehow detached or seperate from the relationship instead of being part of a cohesive unit. Your partner SHOULD be the one person in the world that you can go to and talk about or confide anything with. I see questions like that coming most often from the "s" side of the coin, as though they place their "D" in a position that is unapproachable. They place them so far up on a pedestal that they become something less than human. Then when that "D" person exhibits human needs, falls short of the expectations....or God forbid...does something WRONG....the "s" type is floundering for a way to deal with it. If you place someone high enough up there...the only possible outcome is that at some point...they are going to fall short.

And yes, I also see the scorekeeping. He has three points to make up to me....or I have to really try this week because I'm down by two. It seems that for some reason, a lot of folks have placed such a superior view of our individual roles in WIITWD that they don't leave room for the fact that we are ALL imperfect beings who screw up, fall short, need support or are subject to any other imaginable human frailty.

My relationships aren't a contest, no one is "ahead". When it comes time to cross that finish line I'd rather stumble across it with one of each of our legs tied together than cross it miles apart.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 5/8/2008 7:29:11 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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