RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (Full Version)

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toxin -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/14/2008 6:08:39 PM)

I don't think thats coz she is a Dominant woman i think its more to do with the fact she is a dumbass and most people know it.

But really if the world was equal in many things then we wouldn't be having this chat,but next time you see a woman in a "mans world" ask yourself is her being a woman in a "mans world" a form of advandge? or disadvandge? chances are most often then not it is not,this goes for anything really the sooner we as a human race can get over the fact that in some cases women are stronger and men are weaker in some cases the sooner we can start treating each other with respect

if ANYTHING is one sided then it can never be equal,thats what i think anyway 



DelilahDeb -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/15/2008 3:18:55 AM)

quote:

How often do you as a Domme get the feeling when you are talking to a potential male submissive that you face a challenge in not just developing the relationship but in also challenging his own preconceived notions and assumptions as to who is serving who, why and for what purpose? Do you ever reach the point where you feel that both you and the relationship is being cheapened to the point where much of it becomes meaningless and is merely designed to bring reality to his fantasies and to have two people working towards the real goal which is his own gratification and satisfaction at the expense of yours?


I'm going to address this piece for the moment. Because the rest of the answer involves at least two lifetimes (my mother, dead last year at 82; and me, the bread-winner in two failed marriages), and that would take more time than I have to spend.

I've lived that description: online, and in person. Recently had a sub who wanted to be my servant & handmaiden, kept pushing the boundaries of our barely begun relationship beyond what *I* wanted (or, at least, every time I reined him in, expressed his "wow, how hot that makes me" feeling. I cut him some slack for reasons unrelated to the topic, and a week before his planned and much-anticipated visit, he "had an experience in church". My translation? I got dumped in favor of deity (hey, at least it took deity!). Lock, stock, and lifestyle. By the time he told me about it, he had already deleted the CM account through which we met.

Other relationships have been fun but short-lived; in some ways I'm hurt because *he* was the one pushing so hard.

I take it as another piece of learning my way through the minefield...it's enough to make me see why some poly Dees set their esses the task of looking for the next candidate.

But I think I'm a little blue this month...anniversary of a death.
Back to the larger topic:
How do you handle it? By just being who you are.
That's how my Mom handled it, for all of her life that I knew her, and some by family report before that.
After all, a 6-foot female engineer in 1956? and divorced with 2 kids?
Hell, she lived through every kind of non-acceptance.
IRS audit because they didn't believe she was supporting us without money under the table from our dad.
All her mail addressed to her at her workplace as Mr. B R, because there wasn't any such thing as a female engineer!
Exclusion from the ranks of "management" even though her career included managing, hiring, firing, reviews, along with R&D and engineering product design, until very very late in her career.
Similar exclusion from candidacy to Episcopal priesthood relevant to her life-long calling.
Bleah.
Bleaagh.
And puke putrid pukeful.

Lady Delilah Deb




AllietheKitten -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/15/2008 9:50:51 PM)

I think its pretty obvious that the cultural stigma against women comes from RELIGION. I mean, for centuries Christianity preached that women were the chattel of their husbands, that their voices provoked lust, that it was a woman's responsibility to cover herself so as not to draw a man's attention away from God. And Islam is even worse in its treatment of women.
Arbitrary and indefensible beliefs have kept women in "their place" for century and in many parts of the world women are still fighting for equal rights. Its ridiculous but its the social paradigm that exists in earth thanks to male dominated religion.
I am not trying to start a religious debate but it bothers me that people soft-shoe around this fact and refuse to call a spade a spade.

/gets off soap box



Pyrrsefanie -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/15/2008 10:26:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AllietheKitten

I think its pretty obvious that the cultural stigma against women comes from RELIGION. I mean, for centuries Christianity preached that women were the chattel of their husbands, that their voices provoked lust, that it was a woman's responsibility to cover herself so as not to draw a man's attention away from God. And Islam is even worse in its treatment of women.


The version of the Bible we're reading today is not necessarily the same that came about at the beginnings of Christianity.  Whole sections have been omitted and rewritten to reflect the views of the highly-oppressive Medieval church; really, then, you could say the treatment of women is less based in religion and more based in the fact that some old kingly dude got pissed because he got shot down by a hot chick and wrote a bunch of crap about how women suck.  Religion is, from this viewpoint, a mere folkloric vessel that allowed the ignorance to continue unmitigated for so long.  It's hard, however, to step forward and call "bullshit" on someone's views when they can have you beheaded with the snap of a finger or burned at the stake for heresy.

Sorry, I know you didn't want to start a debate, but speaking as a Catholic I get a bit miffed when people start blaming religion for all of society's perceived "ills" and making it sound like anyone who would follow an organized belief system is some sort of archaic anomaly or, worse, some kind of small-minded monster to poke fun at.  At the core of all of our problems are human beings, not an invisible man in the sky, not a system of beliefs -- people just suck.  Never underestimate the power of stupid people with big guns.

Oh, and as for Islam and the other religions out there -- not really familiar enough with them to speak for their treatment of women, although what I've seen on the news makes me cringe.  Just keep in mind that extremists do not necessarily speak for all of us.  For example, hardcore Ukrainian Catholics require their women to wear skirts or dresses to church and to cover their hair, no ifs ands or buts.  My boy and I are not that severe in our beliefs, however.  In fact we think it a bit strange, but to each their own... I forget that acronym that amounts to "your kink is my kink" or whatever it is.  Too many damn letters to memorize.



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/15/2008 11:18:05 PM)

I've felt two main things...and I'm fairly convinced that they're just my projections about stuff and not really how it was/is at all. But, we can't stop ourselves from projecting and it does affect our lives.

1) I felt, and still feel, that when people learn that I'm a female dominant, they assume that I am what I call "the classic Fem Dom." This is the stereotypical woman who is the bitch goddess, dresses provocatively in thigh high boots and lingerie, thinks and treats all men as worms and finds "true power" in strapon play. I know that it's because of this that I'm WAY more comfortable with the title of Master than Mistress. It's much easier to explain how I think Master fits than it is to explain why Mistress doesn't. It tried to be this person and it didn't fit. I still feel that people expect me to be this person and I'm tired of seeing the let down when they find that I'm not. It makes me angry at times because I feel that I'm a great person that they're refusing to see.

I know that most of this is projection...and I know I project it because I still haven't worked out my perceived failure on my part to be that person.

2) I felt that I was, in a sense, unattractive to the men in my small town area in the east, before I moved out west, because I was much more butch than your "average" het woman. I also felt I was set apart because I'm intelligent. These have lessoned since I've moved away from that environment, though. But, sometimes, they rear their ugly head and I get defensive.

Again, this was most likely projection on my part...in part due to being eventually "rejected" by my husbands when I started to shorten my hair and not wear skirts as much as I did in the beginning of both of my marriages. (That fact is, in itself, a comment on my attempts to be what I'm not.)

I'm not sure if that totally answers whatever questions you had, but you said to write whatever we're led to write, so there you have it.

Master Fire



Wickad -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/15/2008 11:59:39 PM)

(fast reply)

Greetings,

I have a few comments and they are no particular order.

I find the idea that someone would 'blame' Hillary Clinton for the actions of her husband very telling.  It seems that no matter what the circumstances ...it's always the woman's fault.  If she (in this case Hillary Clinton) is cheated ON then it must be her fault for not keeping her man happy.  Furthermore, it is also her fault if she chooses to remain in the marriage as she should have kicked him to curb.  That being said, I'm sure it would also have been her fault if she had chosen to divorce Bill because then she wouldn't be 'sticking by her man'.  It seems that though the man was the one who transgressed it is some how the woman's fault.   Wow, is this is a messed up ideology.

I don't have a problem with someone not liking Hillary Clinton for her politics, for the way she dresses, hell, even for her hairstyle, but the idea that you would not like her because of the actions of another .... that's a bit far fetched in my opinion.

Titles ... I don't like the title Mistress.  I prefer Ms.  To me "Ms." is the title of a woman who has chosen to define herself.  She is not a 'Miss', which I view as being an extension of her father and she is not 'Mrs.', which I see as simply an acceptance of transfer of ownership to her husband.  In my opinion (and I'm sure there will be those who disagree), "Ms." indicates a separation from the father and an acceptance of her role as a whole person without need of a husband.  Not that I have anything against husbands ... lol, I sorta have one myself.

I do not believe you can boil down the treatment of women to one single cause.  I agree that religion has been used as a crutch to validate treating women poorly but I do not believe that either Christianity or Islam are the entire reason.  There are other things such as projection of male lust and the inability to accept that one is responsible for those feelings, need to determine paternity of children and all the control implications that come along with it, fear of losing a love interest and anger at oneself projected outward in an attempt to compensate for that pain, etc.  Overall, misogyny and all it's manifestations is a very complex issue.

Being a Dominant woman in our society is very much an aberrant thing.  I don't think that being a strong woman is really seen as 'bad' but rather being direct, assertive, and independent is seen with a great deal of suspicion.  After all, it is perfectly acceptable to be the power behind the throne (so to speak) but it is very much 'not okay' to be sitting on that throne. 

The patriarchal society in which we live effects us all.  As some have stated here, it was most often other women who were upset by their independence rather than the men.  We, as women, police the societal structure in which we all are participants and victims of.  Though none of us would like to see ourselves as 'victims' we in fact suffer under the regime we work so hard to perpetuate.  I think that if any woman reading this cannot bring to mind an incident where someone either dismissed her, shunned her, assaulted her, ect ... then she would be fooling herself.

Wickad

PS - as a side note ... I saw a documentary today that looked into brain sex.  At one point they had two anchors read the news to a group of men - one an attractive guy and the other an attractive woman wearing a low-cut top.  The men, upon questioning, remembered what the male anchor had said but were totally unable to remember what the woman anchor had said.  They did remember the colour of her top, that she was attractive and that she had nice breasts.  It was speculated that men tune out what a woman says if they find her attractive.   Hmmmm, interesting!!



GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 12:46:39 AM)

~FR~  Wow!  Other than the offering of religion being the culprit, with which I do disagree, I have little to add.  Much of what has been so thoughtfully written here is very relatable for Me.
I cannot say that I ever feel stigmatized.  More like stereotyped, and that is, most often, from the males who write to Me (or attend My munch, or meet Me) and then struggle to prove they are submissive and want to be submissive to Me..."as long as..." with agendas of which they are truly not even aware.  Societal attitudes, assumptions and natural reactions are so ingrained, that it is difficult to find someone of the male pursuasion who really gets what a FemDom is and what "Women in charge" totally means though and through.  I know that you didn't mean for this to steer off in that direction, Stella, but it  is what it is.
And I will add that I am proud to be in the company of such Ladies, even if it is just via an online forum.   Fabulous discussion!



blueskyboy -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 2:36:36 AM)

be yourself...don't over do it...just be confident and clear...no need to ever posture...confidence is the hottest of the hot ...plenty of us will appreciate it - hear the critics but listen more closely to yourself - when you lead many will try to put you in a little neat box - comes with the gig - be brave enough to live the life you feel...

find a smart person and allow them to constantly remind you  



Rule -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 2:57:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad
If she (in this case Hillary Clinton) is cheated ON then it must be her fault

I do not know that she was cheated on as that is a mere rumor, but if so I have no doubt that it happened with her full consent and that she did some swinging too.



MissMagnolia -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 2:57:33 AM)

I've experienced the opposite kind of comments, that I am far too friendly and kind to be a dominant woman!!!  A confident woman, who has good manners and a sense of humour are apparently just not domly enough.[:D]

As stated early, I do believe these kind of comments come from men who think a Domme is something like the ladies one see's in BDSM porn. Those guys, I don't care about. Lovely though those ladies are, the reality is that most Dommes look just like everyone else and not like supermodels. A sub who's actually into D/s and not just kinky sex will know the difference.

I am what I am and do not wish to be anything else so, as long as I like me, that's all that really matters. As it should be for everyone.



MsStarlett -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 4:12:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Hillary in 2069. She brings her crap on herself. I don't tink that she is Domineering. Look at Bill. He does what he whats do do with whom he wants to do it with. She refuses to get out of an abusive relationship. In a crisis she would panic.  


I wasn't actually talking about her politics - I was talking about the way she is treated in the media.  It's OK to make "Bitch" jokes about her, but it's NOT ok to make black jokes about Obama.  We have 'progressed' into a more 'PC world' where some topics are off limits because it it degrading to a segment of the population.  The topic for discussion here is "Social Stigma of being a Dominant Woman".  I am pointing at a prime example of how a woman is treated if she strives for a position of power.  She is far more criticized than a man doing the same thing.



Griswold -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 4:23:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsStarlett

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Hillary in 2069. She brings her crap on herself. I don't tink that she is Domineering. Look at Bill. He does what he whats do do with whom he wants to do it with. She refuses to get out of an abusive relationship. In a crisis she would panic.  



I wasn't actually talking about her politics - I was talking about the way she is treated in the media.  It's OK to make "Bitch" jokes about her, but it's NOT ok to make black jokes about Obama.  We have 'progressed' into a more 'PC world' where some topics are off limits because it it degrading to a segment of the population.  The topic for discussion here is "Social Stigma of being a Dominant Woman".  I am pointing at a prime example of how a woman is treated if she strives for a position of power.  She is far more criticized than a man doing the same thing.



A point often lost on people with their own stigmas about how the world treats them.

As a man, call a woman "sweetie" or "hon" you'll get your head handed to you and you get the "YOU SAID WHAT????!!!!" look that can cut diamonds....I've been accused of everything but being the second gunman on the grassy knoll for doing just that...but go to a bar or a restaurant as a man, and that's ALL you get called by the women waitresses, because they think it endears you to them.

Go figure.



MsStarlett -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 5:34:01 AM)

LOL!  Now that's one thing that I never quite understood.  I normally enjoy being called things like 'Sweetie'.  Maybe it's just a Southern thing.  I just don't see that as a demeaning word - I use it toward men when I can't remember or don't know their names.  Men never seem to mind.  But then, I don't mind being called a 'Bitch' either.  Guess I'm a bit of an odd bird.  Then again, I haven't been in a 'service' position since I was 18 years old...  I can see where a waitress could be offended.  Luckily, when I worked in offices my bosses were either other women or polite enough most of the time not to use 'pet names'.  No boss ever called me that... except for one who was genuinely fond of me.  And VERY southern!

Hmmm... getting off topic again.  Pardon.



MsStarlett -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 5:35:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMagnolia
Lovely though those ladies are, the reality is that most Dommes look just like everyone else and not like supermodels.


*evil giggles*  My male friends frequently complain that the girls at the strip joint NEVER look like the ones on the billboard.  Reality bites.



BrigandDoom -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 6:21:50 AM)

Interesting post, but from my experience in the work place. most "powrrful women" weren't so much stigmatised as loathed as it seemed many thought the way to get people who they employed to work for them was to bark, bully & crack the whip. All this did was get everyones backs up and we all collectively, that is male & female produced work that was barely passable. We had a succession of poor male office bosses and tyranical female bosses until one day we found a 22 yo female graduate had been given the job.
She was a gem, she had an office meeting in our social club, introduced herself properly, explained what she thought the problems were and how she expected to tackle them. She then asked for input from us lot, something that hadn't happened in 6 years! Within weeks the office had turned from a place of drudgery to a happy working environment, we wern't being chased about unless we were slacking and it was an urgent job, we were often thanked for our efforts in person and if we got on with our work we were left to do our jobs.
Apart from when she first introduced herself, no-one questioned her age or experience. I've found myself that you either have the ability to get people to work for you voluntarily or you don't. Any fool can bully someone in a workplace from a position of authority, but you can't expect to get the best out of people.
I also found out by pure chance that she was a switch, so as it stood we got on like a house on fire which helps, but I was never given the easy tasks as a right, nor did I ever get preferential treatment.
So my thoughts are these days, though you do have the conservative thinkers, there are plenty of ladies out there who are more than capable of managing and dominating, all they really need is the opportunity to prove it without anyone trying to belittle or impede them.
 



DominantJenny -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 7:00:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

I've felt two main things...and I'm fairly convinced that they're just my projections about stuff and not really how it was/is at all. But, we can't stop ourselves from projecting and it does affect our lives.

1) I felt, and still feel, that when people learn that I'm a female dominant, they assume that I am what I call "the classic Fem Dom." This is the stereotypical woman who is the bitch goddess, dresses provocatively in thigh high boots and lingerie, thinks and treats all men as worms and finds "true power" in strapon play. I know that it's because of this that I'm WAY more comfortable with the title of Master than Mistress. It's much easier to explain how I think Master fits than it is to explain why Mistress doesn't. It tried to be this person and it didn't fit. I still feel that people expect me to be this person and I'm tired of seeing the let down when they find that I'm not. It makes me angry at times because I feel that I'm a great person that they're refusing to see.

I know that most of this is projection...and I know I project it because I still haven't worked out my perceived failure on my part to be that person.

2) I felt that I was, in a sense, unattractive to the men in my small town area in the east, before I moved out west, because I was much more butch than your "average" het woman. I also felt I was set apart because I'm intelligent. These have lessoned since I've moved away from that environment, though. But, sometimes, they rear their ugly head and I get defensive.

Again, this was most likely projection on my part...in part due to being eventually "rejected" by my husbands when I started to shorten my hair and not wear skirts as much as I did in the beginning of both of my marriages. (That fact is, in itself, a comment on my attempts to be what I'm not.)

I'm not sure if that totally answers whatever questions you had, but you said to write whatever we're led to write, so there you have it.

Master Fire



I felt the same way (although physically I'm fairly feminine...I wear a bob now, but had very long hair by my own choice for many years, I like wearing the occasional skirt, being "pretty", etc)...Basically, I'm a hard femme or soft butch, depending on who you ask.
But I was dealing with someone who loved me completely and who, it was clear, felt VERY awkward referring to me as Master, so I gave it a shot...and it was weird for a while, but grew less and less weird pretty quickly, really, and than I was fine with it.
I utterly will never be that stereotype...but I'm comfortable in my own skin now, whether I'm addressed as Master or Mistress.
I hope the same sort of thing happens for you sooner rather than later. Issues, especially when you know the what and why and still can't quite get past them, suck...imo, anyway.



thetammyjo -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 8:35:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wickad
If she (in this case Hillary Clinton) is cheated ON then it must be her fault

I do not know that she was cheated on as that is a mere rumor, but if so I have no doubt that it happened with her full consent and that she did some swinging too.


How can you call one thing a rumor and then claim that you have no doubt about something related to said rumor?

Anyone else here see the illogic in these statements?



HagiaSophia -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 11:10:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyrrsefanie

Sorry, I know you didn't want to start a debate, but speaking as a Catholic I get a bit miffed when people start blaming religion for all of society's perceived "ills" and making it sound like anyone who would follow an organized belief system is some sort of archaic anomaly or, worse, some kind of small-minded monster to poke fun at.  At the core of all of our problems are human beings, not an invisible man in the sky, not a system of beliefs -- people just suck.  Never underestimate the power of stupid people with big guns.

Oh, and as for Islam and the other religions out there -- not really familiar enough with them to speak for their treatment of women, although what I've seen on the news makes me cringe.  Just keep in mind that extremists do not necessarily speak for all of us.


Excellent points, however, the issues with women are but another expression of the power elite's attempts to maintain control of resources. For example, male priests were forbidden to marry and have offspring because the Church was losing too much wealth to priests' heirs. In some ways, in the case of Catholicism, it all comes down to the institutional denial of the vitality and focus of the embodied sexual life, or the importance of the flesh. Religion, like bdsm, is all about power. Religion is a tool of social control. What better way to control a population than to be the arbiter of the rules of sex, to say if, when, and how someone can satisfy one of the most basic human needs? Paul is quite famous for admonishing his followers to be like him, to abstain from the worldly pleasures of sex, but if they must have sex to do it in the marriage bed. "If they must"! It is the denial of the flesh, the denial of the sexual being that helps propel initiates further into the service of the Catholic god. While this is useful in small doses (chastity training comes to mind) it is fundamentally incongruent with millions of years of evolution. But we're strange animals...

But this is inherent with all religions of the Book (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) and most, if not all, other organized religions. And it's not just religion, but that religion has been a longer, more consistent influence on any given culture than any government.

Always,
Hagia Sophia



submale4u2spank -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 3:43:54 PM)

Try being a submissive male, it's a lot harder, especially when you love to wear women's clothes.  I'm not sure why they're still called women's clothes when I'm a guy and I own them.  



LadyPact -> RE: Handling the social stigma of being a Dominant Female (5/16/2008 3:58:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsStarlett

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Hillary in 2069. She brings her crap on herself. I don't tink that she is Domineering. Look at Bill. He does what he whats do do with whom he wants to do it with. She refuses to get out of an abusive relationship. In a crisis she would panic.  



I wasn't actually talking about her politics - I was talking about the way she is treated in the media.  It's OK to make "Bitch" jokes about her, but it's NOT ok to make black jokes about Obama.  We have 'progressed' into a more 'PC world' where some topics are off limits because it it degrading to a segment of the population.  The topic for discussion here is "Social Stigma of being a Dominant Woman".  I am pointing at a prime example of how a woman is treated if she strives for a position of power.  She is far more criticized than a man doing the same thing.



A point often lost on people with their own stigmas about how the world treats them.

As a man, call a woman "sweetie" or "hon" you'll get your head handed to you and you get the "YOU SAID WHAT????!!!!" look that can cut diamonds....I've been accused of everything but being the second gunman on the grassy knoll for doing just that...but go to a bar or a restaurant as a man, and that's ALL you get called by the women waitresses, because they think it endears you to them.

Go figure.


Actually, Obama just recently apologized for calling a female reporter "Sweetie".  I happened to think that wasting the air time on television was one of the stupidest things I had seen all day.



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