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Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 5:12:58 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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The thread 'a paradox of using forced sex' has me thinking Rather than taking that thread off topic i thought it would be better to start a new one.

For me there is a big difference between arguing about something and discussing it. Ok so there is a fine line sometimes, but basically to me arguing has not only been not allowed in any of my relationships but can be more destructive than productive.

quote:

I can have a civil, respectful discussion with my slave. No name calling is ever allowed. Then we pursue whatever I decide. I am a thoughtful person and I take stock of what my slave has to offer intellectually - that's one of the reasons I have her. Smart women are extremely attractive to me.

Hope Sugarmychurro doesn't mind me quoting that but for me this says it all. Why argue anyway when you cna have an intelligent, rational, well thought out discussion?

To quote myself -

quote:

Personally in all my relationships i have not been allowed to argue. I have been allowed to politely ask for a discussion on whatever is happening. His say has always been final though and if he refuses my request to talk about the issue so be it. I have had to suck it up.

When i submitted to his will i submitted in every way including agreeing not to argue with him but to ask for a discussion when something bothered me.

So for you argument vs discussion?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

Post #: 1

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 5:22:36 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

If there is a problem I will sit down with My girl and We will discuss the situation for as long as it takes to find a solution. Arguments however, in My household are forbidden. Even guests here, if they want to agrue they can naff off to their own home and do so.

As stated in the OP, there is nothing positive in arguments. They are inherently distructive and the equivalent of two kids poking each other with sticks.... problems are more constructivly dealt with by two adults discussing, understanding and working out a positive way around them.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 2

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 5:44:35 AM

batshalom

Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline

Wow.

You guys are WAY better at control than I. I have not experienced a place in which people did not occasionally argue, and I cannot fathom it.

Arguing doesn't have to be destructive as long as things aren't said that are only meant to be hurtful, but venting emotion seems ok to me. It could be, though, that I am misunderstanding "discussion" as it is being used here. Is your house always calm and quiet with no raised voices (during such discussions)? If so, wow again! I think my body might implode if those feelings didn't have a place to go - sometimes, like laughter, the feeling is too large to be contained inside myself.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 3

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 5:48:05 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

Disscussions are far more productive. BUT!. When women start making them circular it drives me nuts.

(in reply to batshalom)

Post #: 4

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 5:48:45 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

For me one of the hallmarks of argument is that you want to "win" and you refuse to give in to the other side.

Since I own Fox and have authority over him in many areas, he has nothing to "win" so he needn't argue. He might give me information but he knows I'll only be persuaded by reasonable and respectful discussion and he also knows he has two choices with any decision I make: obey or leave. Therefore arguments with my slave and I are very very rare.

In fact, when we each uphold our end of the marriage without needing reminding, the arguments are also rare between my spouse and I. I just with he'd be more responsibility and not put off things for so long when he has agreed to do them -- that doesn't mean arguments it just means anger something I usually do not have in relationship to my slave.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 5

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 5:59:07 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: batshalom

Wow.

You guys are WAY better at control than I. I have not experienced a place in which people did not occasionally argue, and I cannot fathom it.

Arguing doesn't have to be destructive as long as things aren't said that are only meant to be hurtful, but venting emotion seems ok to me. It could be, though, that I am misunderstanding "discussion" as it is being used here. Is your house always calm and quiet with no raised voices (during such discussions)? If so, wow again! I think my body might implode if those feelings didn't have a place to go - sometimes, like laughter, the feeling is too large to be contained inside myself.

I'm with you. I passionately experience the full range of emotions in a relationship. One of those emotions is "pissed off". Don't like it but it happens. I can't imagine being in a relationship that required that I had to bottle up any emotion...even a negative one. I don't resort to the whole name calling thing and try to focus on the problem at hand rather than the personality. Focusing on the personality never brings good results.

I was married to a man for 11 years that I never once had an argument with. We divorced. We didn't feel passionately enough about each other to even bother arguing. We simply co-existed under one roof. Yeah, that felt pretty lifeless.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to batshalom)

Post #: 6

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 6:00:29 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

For me one of the hallmarks of argument is that you want to "win" and you refuse to give in to the other side.

Discussion is two people working together to find a solution and 'win' over the problem. It isn't a competition... for one thing... I Own her, ergo I win... next.... so rather a game not worth playing.

Always been the same though... in My longest relationship to date, 10 year, there was only one argument the entire time... that was the one that lead to the ending of the relationship.

quote:

Is your house always calm and quiet with no raised voices (during such discussions)?

Yep.... well to the no raised voices... if dealing with an emotive issue I may have a sobbing girl on My shoulder at some point which some maybe not consider calm. If events have got Me annoyed then I take a break first, 10 minutes just to take hold of it and come back composed and fully in control (of Myself... and if You can't control Yourself, you ain't going to effectivly control another! IMO) ready to discuss it.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 7

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 6:11:16 AM

Owner4SexSlave

Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: batshalom

Wow.

You guys are WAY better at control than I. I have not experienced a place in which people did not occasionally argue, and I cannot fathom it.

Arguing doesn't have to be destructive as long as things aren't said that are only meant to be hurtful, but venting emotion seems ok to me. It could be, though, that I am misunderstanding "discussion" as it is being used here. Is your house always calm and quiet with no raised voices (during such discussions)? If so, wow again! I think my body might implode if those feelings didn't have a place to go - sometimes, like laughter, the feeling is too large to be contained inside myself.

I have had an M/s relationship where there was no fighting! She was always respectful, and if something was an issue it was discussed or talked about. Whatever decision or choices I made she went with it. Sure we had raised voices at times from laughter or play. But not from fighting. There was only one time when she emotionally let herself get out of control. This only happened because I released her. I was laying in bed, she came into the bedroom. Started pleading with me to not do this (release her), for me to not give up on us.. emotionally she lost control, and she actually climbed on top of me, repeating herself and pleading more... to the point she was basically screaming it out loud. She actually even was ponding on my chest with her fists. Not in a Manner to cause me any pain or harm mind you. But this is another whole story in itself. Still, this was not a fight.

Now, on the other hand, I have been in a couple of relationship where very heated fights would break out. Complete with a lot of yelling and screaming, door slamming, a few things getting broken here and there.

(in reply to batshalom)

Post #: 8

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 6:24:16 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

I'm a little confused here, hoping someone can enlighten me.
For me arguing with Sir shows a complete lack of respect.
Confused as to how a blazing row can be respectful of either party.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)

Post #: 9

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 6:37:08 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

It was said earlier, but to me, arguing is two sides, each with a cause or an agenda, and wanting to "win." Discussing is trying to come to mutual understanding.

Having said that, I am not allowed to argue with my Master. I do not raise my voice to him. I think the last time I did that was over a year and a half ago and it did not garner me good results. This does not mean I am unable to express myself, or that I must bottle up my emotions. Hell, I did that for 20 years in my marriage. I can express myself just fine - I've learned to do so in a way that is appropriate to my relationship. My passion is still expressed and still reveals itself. It's just that I no longer feel a need to hollar and shout. I'm that way with just about everyone now. I recently sat through six 2-3 hour meetings of negotiations with my ex husband, in which he held back no punches, and did not raise my voice, angry as I was. And yet I said everything I needed to say to make my point each time he said something stupid or cruel.

Learning this trait did not come easily for me, but I learned it. And in doing so, I learned I can be much more effective when I am not raising my voice, when I'm not resorting to name calling (whether with my Master or anyone else), and when I can think clearly enough to state my case in a logical manner that makes sense. This doesn't mean I don't get angry or that I stifle that anger, it just means I channel that anger elsewhere.

As for my Master and I, I'm on his team, so why would I want to argue and be destructive to him?

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 10

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 6:43:43 AM

MladyHathor

Posts: 510
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline

Discussion in the heat of anger is an art form and takes intelligent work---IMHO it comes from how you were raised--for Me I used to be a loud arguer, My parents were--then I became a PO and a Master ( if you will) of using My voice to de-escalate and bring it to discussion---an art I used with raising My teen and have mastered with the corporate world--in My home, I do not allow arguments but encourage spirited discourse, I do not allow attacks on a person or a persons self esteem for their beliefs but insure that their ideas are based on research not hearsay--I also do not allow for hurt or angry feelings to continue should humaness happen and an argument ensue.

However, as I said, it comes from how people are raised or how they develop--discussion to Me seems logical however, I had to work very hard in My life to develop that.

_____________________________

The Mistress Hathor, always and forever, much to the disdain and discomfort of others.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 11

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 6:52:39 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I work on a simple principle. You are my slave, we will not always agree and we will see somethings differently. I both want and need your input. Openly given without fear or my displeasure. Ergo regular open and frank (gawd knows why Frank always gets involved lol) discussions and even healthy spirited debates are in order. You have a problem then it is up to you (unless I can see something is wrong) to ask me how soon we can sit down and sort it out. having said that you will always realise I have the final say. All will be good as long as respect, good manners, etiquette and protocol are followed.

Iron Bear
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

"I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does." (Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester)

< Message edited by IronBear -- 5/14/2008 6:53:28 AM >

(in reply to MladyHathor)

Post #: 12

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 7:05:27 AM

pettingdragons

Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline

arguing with Master is not acceptable in this girls world either....but there are those out there that enjoy a good arguement...in this girls opinion SAMs tend to like to argue more then other types of submissives or slaves...but then its all about what the DOMINANT allows and desires in His sub/slave.....
just this girls two cents
pettingdragons
**Master Dragons considered slave**

(in reply to MladyHathor)

Post #: 13

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 7:05:46 AM

BlackPhx

Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline

Master and I don't argue over relationship items, those we tend to discuss (sometimes heatedly), usually after whoever is incensed for whatever reason has a chance to cool off. We do accept that accidents happen, that words can be taken wrongly, feelings can be hurt, the baggage of the past can affect the here and now. It doesnt involved raised voices, broken items, thrown things, or violence though it may involve tears and ALWAYS Includes the words "I Feel..." and never "You always..." It is easier to clear the air when you are talking about your own feelings about something and do not accuse. Accusing places the other person in a Defensive posture and that is what triggers the I must win syndrome. Sometimes it ends in Angry Kisses..done until they are no longer hard and angry, sometimes in alone time or sleep..but we never go to bed or sleep with a cloud in the air.

That said we can argue/discuss the hell out of everything else..with Powerpoint slides, Internet references and rapidly flipped and opened books to support our various stances. Both of us are tenacious pitbulls when it comes to our theories, positions on things, etc. which I am sure more than one person has noted here. We can argue a point in ways that would have made Meet the Press, The Debate Team and 20/20 proud. He grew up with Lawyers and you didn't come to the table unless you could defend your point of view on a subject. I grew up with a Social worker and a English Professor..intellectual discussions were a mandate and punishable if you could not successfully defend either side of a theory or thesis.

Arguments happen, even when they are respectful, low keyed and quickly shut down, they happen and they are arguments call them what you will. The WIN is simple, not to get the other person to change their mind and do what you want or say, but to get them to hear you WHEN you don't feel that they are. Working with I Feel..makes that much more possible as does a reasonable tone and politness. Small note..the first argument you ever have with that person is the argument you will cfontinue to have over and over. If it is over money, guess what, that will creep into every heated discussion afterwards, family conflict, how to discipline a child, etc..all the same. The big trick is not to cloud the issues and face what you are actually "discussing" this time without the past being dragged into it.

poenkitten (who knows even the most respectful of children argue with their parents, why hide the fact that we do as well)

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 14

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 7:06:17 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

My boys are not forbidden to argue, but it doesnt happen often. Discussions get far more done, and so they are the usual course of action. However, when tempers have flared (and we al have them in this family) arguments have happened. They are short, loud and even if they dont get far, they are emotionally cathartic. Name calling and making an argument unnecessarily nasty IS forbidden and punishable and they know it. But Angel and I have had a few very interesting screaming matches over our years together. Fox isnt the type.
The only other thing that bothers me, argument or discusion, is telling me my OPINION is incorrect. I wll end a discussion or argument over a comment like that, cut it off midthought if I have to. I have told the boys yet, you can challenge ANY fact I put forth. If you dont believe it or if you know it is not right, then chalenge away, they rare both intelligent enough for it. However, my opinion is mine and not correct or incorrect. They dot have to agree and I dont expect them to all the time, but if they ever tell me it is wrong they lose their prieledge of discussing/arguing anything further on that point.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 15

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 7:18:40 AM

Owner4SexSlave

Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
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I wonder why so many people have this image of TPE or Master/slave relationships as being so harsh, that a slave is not permitted to express thoughts, feelings/emotions, and point of views... let alone be permitted to have any?

< Message edited by Owner4SexSlave -- 5/14/2008 7:19:56 AM >

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 16

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 7:24:48 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

I wonder why so many people have this image of TPE or Master/slave relationships as being so harsh, that a slave is not permitted to express thoughts, feelings/emotions, and point of views... let alone be permitted to have any?

Because they have never asked or tried to find out the reality, mearly content with their own assumptions.

My girl isn't just 'allowed' to express her thoughts, feelings and emotions... she is required to, just to do so in a respectful manner.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)

Post #: 17

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 7:28:07 AM

pettingdragons

Posts: 421
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave
I wonder why so many people have this image of TPE or Master/slave relationships as being so harsh, that a slave is not permitted to express thoughts, feelings/emotions, and point of views... let alone be permitted to have any?

TPE and M/s are all what the individuals want it to be....and its a heavily debated subject....its personal to the individual...and the matching of partners....that said..this girl is allowed and is highly encouraged to express feelings, thoughts, emotions, points of view...with respect.....always....arguing, yelling, shouting, name calling are all forms of disrespect.....so they are not permitted....though girl does not communicate in this respect in any part of her life....if girl can not get her point across with out raising her voice then the response needs to be thought through again. intellectual interaction can be just as cutting, if not more so then arguing. this girls two cents....pettingdragons**Master Dragons considered slave**

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)

Post #: 18

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 7:45:00 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

I am at a point in life where I just don't "DO" arguments.

As others have also said, my first thought on the difference, is the agenda. Arguments are verbal battles. Usually directed by a desire to win. AND, usually the only way to win is for one person to be wrong. I don't like that train of thought. It is nonproductive, immature, and often times damaging.

I prefer to wait until the extreme emotion, of the moment, has passed and have a calm rational discussion. Everyone brings their issues and thoughts to the table, it gets discussed and a solution is found. In this case, all parties end up winning.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 19

RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 7:52:52 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

The thread 'a paradox of using forced sex' has me thinking Rather than taking that thread off topic i thought it would be better to start a new one.

For me there is a big difference between arguing about something and discussing it. Ok so there is a fine line sometimes, but basically to me arguing has not only been not allowed in any of my relationships but can be more destructive than productive.

quote:

I can have a civil, respectful discussion with my slave. No name calling is ever allowed. Then we pursue whatever I decide. I am a thoughtful person and I take stock of what my slave has to offer intellectually - that's one of the reasons I have her. Smart women are extremely attractive to me.

Hope Sugarmychurro doesn't mind me quoting that but for me this says it all. Why argue anyway when you cna have an intelligent, rational, well thought out discussion?

To quote myself -

quote:

Personally in all my relationships i have not been allowed to argue. I have been allowed to politely ask for a discussion on whatever is happening. His say has always been final though and if he refuses my request to talk about the issue so be it. I have had to suck it up.

When i submitted to his will i submitted in every way including agreeing not to argue with him but to ask for a discussion when something bothered me.

So for you argument vs discussion?

Discussion...every time. I grew up in a household where, from the time I was 13 until the day my father died, discussions usually turned into arguments. The "reason" behind this? It was good to vent your anger and it was better to do so even through arguing rather than hitting. Even as a teenage, my question was "Why can't you vent your anger through expression of that anger in civil terms so that your partner listens and hears you rather than through yelling and screaming where you know that not only are they not listening...they don't care to?" When I began entering into more adult relationships with my partners, including my vanilla relationships, these were the rules: 1. No yelling 2. Each of us gets to be heard 3. No name-calling My marriage taught me a few other things to add in when setting up a D/s dynamic.
One of the 3 Basic Rules for any D/s dynamic I enter into is Civility and Courtesy. If you are angry about something, say so and ask for a discussion. When the conversation gets too heated...interruption, angry gestures, whatever...I stop it until civility and courtesy can reign again. Now, I am realistic enough to understand that when someone is angry with me that their tone is not going to come across as all that courteous or civil. Tone, as long as it is not yelling, doesn't bother me...go ahead and raise your voice to a certain level to help express your anger, dismay, disappointment but remember, it is the way something is said that makes the difference to me.
Another rule for discussion is this...no button-pushing. Most intelligent folks would say that this is covered under Civil and Courteous behavior...maybe, but in my mind, it is deliberate disrespect that may be done under a guise of civil, courteous tones.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 20

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