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RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 12:51:47 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		German/French/Irish here and 90% of my friends were either Italian or Spanish growing up in NYC. Their side of the coin to how others relate in low, polite tones with no raised voices are - are they alive or have they died lol.   i haven't lived in the city for about 12 years now and this thread has made me realize what i miss. 



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RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 1:05:48 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		When Chinese Zodiac placemats came out in the restaurants I found out I was a RABBIT, seeking a peaceful quiet home life.  Is that ever right!  Growing up in an ethnic Italian extended family, LOUDNESS is just a quality of expression.  A house without shouting?  A good thing!  My former slave was astounded that I didn't fight or argue.  I just refuse to engage.  I *can* raise my voice, but I don't have to.   I can't imagine tolerating a submissive shouting at me.  Disagreeing, sure, we are all entitled to our views, and I do want to hear the other side of things.  I might not do anything about it, but I want to hear it.

My dad, Mr Loud, is also a Rabbit.  So much for astrology!

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RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 1:12:52 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Lady Hibiscus, I can relate.  There was so much yelling and loudness in my home growing up, that I now enjoy the peacefulness of living alone, and of silence.  My Master raises his voice and I freeze.  Loud voices are stressful for me now. 

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 3:15:17 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

So for you argument vs discussion?



Roughly speaking, there is a loss of control during the course of an argument. That's never been my style - I'd say I'm extremely logical and can stay focused in pretty much any circumstance - so when someone attempts to manipulate the situation by ranting and raving, I tend to maintain my usual manner on the basis that there's no logic in two adults shouting at one another.

But, in the event a woman is ranting, I wouldn't take it as a sign of disrespect, as I expect more from myself than anyone else; after all, I'm the one with a duty to keep a cool head at all times.

Edited for quotes.

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RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 4:55:43 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Sometimes you argue anyway simply because your emotions are running high. And when we hold diametrically opposed viewpoints he can't just do what he wants unless he wants me to be unhappy and resentful. Because if you can't convince me of the wisdom of your decision but force it on me, then you had better be able to prove that it was the right decision in all possible ways; moral, ethicall, emotional, mentally, physically, financially.

We have had the occasional impasse because he's only concerned with the financial ramifications whereas my major concern is the emotional fallout on all members of the family. If he forces through a decision that causes me or the offspring to be hurt, I will be more likely to distrust him in the future. And that's unhealthy for the relationship as well as for both him and me.

Honestly if you can't come to a solution that solves everything, then you had better go back to the drawing board.

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RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 5:08:45 PM   
mztresn0w


Posts: 174
Joined: 1/12/2008
Status: offline 		If I disagree with something it is open for discussion. I refuse to argue. I will not yell and scream. It is healthy to disagree but it is wrong to yell and scream and argue. I don't expect my submissives to agree with me on everything. But I will not allow myself to be drawn into a yelling match. Who ever is getting that upset that they feel the need to yell and scream needs to stop and calm down. You can never take it back once you say something in the heat of angry. You can be do alot of damage to a person and never be able to repair that damage. There are some things that "I am sorry I didn't mean to say" just doesn't cover.

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RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 5:25:32 PM   
mzbehavin


Posts: 253
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline 		If someone yells at me i withdraw. My ex husband learned early on how to shut me up. To this day i dont like to yell. If my voice is raised, something is seriously wrong. Discussions yes please, arguments no. I've never been in a relationship where i had to censor my emotions/reactions as a rule. Its never really been an issue. However, i have been pushed too far and freaked the hell out. Ugh... hate when that happens.


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RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 5:37:29 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well for me there is a difference.  Discussion is more a sharing of perspectives while arguing is trying to force a particular perspective onto another.

But I don't see either as being wrong or bad to have, even in Ms or Owner/property relationships.  Both can bring about some good growth and change.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_978126/mpage_1/key_argue/tm.htm#978415
Do you argue?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_700068/mpage_2/key_argue/tm.htm#700550
Arguments and the Ds Relationship


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 6:30:12 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I dont disagree with LA but I would add that a goodly number of people have in the past had very bad experiences involving arguments with partners or peopole close to them and it is natural for them to either shy away from arguments, or even a discussion/debate where emotions are involved and a voice is raised (in a positive excired manner). For some such an event is too traumatic to handle. I believe that is is good to have ground rules set down first includine a clause where either person can call a time out and walk away till the air is settled. Also, it helps if people argue, discuss or debate in a non personal manner and "attack" the subject and not thre person. There is nothing whiuch dampens what could be a marvelous discussion than someone sayint the "You did!" or the "Why didn't you?" There are easy ways to rephrase such things in a non-personalized manner.

Iron Bear
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

"I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does." (Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester)


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Argument or discussion - 5/14/2008 7:43:21 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		My partner in one of my Twisted Kinky Vanilla Relationship, I swear to god was bi-polar or suffered from some mood/mental disorder.

It was impossible to have a level headed discussion about things, even at times, she was so far out to lunch and actually became extremely closed minded.  Almost like her mind was in some made up fantasy world.   She was very subborn to hold onto whatever unrealistic (at times extremely petty) issue.   In fact many times, the things that would come up often appeared to more like mindless attempts at guilt trips.   To the point that her self justifications well, were just plain out there in La La land.  She tended to read a lot more into everything going on around here, verse taking things at face value.  At times, I even wondered if she was just being paranoid.   Now, this was just an issue between me and her.   This is a problem her own family has with in dealing with her as well.   Often her mind would simply come up with some paranoid like Judgement about somebody or why somebody did something.   Basically, she was all the time accusing or thinking people had some hidden agenda going on.  It was like she had extremely poor listening skills.  When she was listening she was reading things into it way too much. 

There were times when we could have level headed discussions, and times when it was like I was dealing with a completely different person.  This can be very confusing and difficult.

Again, I will stress this is what happend in One of my Twisted Kinky Vanilla relationships.   

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RE: Argument or discussion - 5/15/2008 4:23:58 AM   
MladyHathor


Posts: 510
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

I wonder why so many people have this image of TPE or Master/slave relationships as being so harsh, that a slave is not permitted to express thoughts, feelings/emotions, and point of views... let alone be permitted to have any? 



Because people confuse Dominance with domineering, arrogance, and selfishness---"if I allow a slave to have their thoughts, they may prove smarter than Me"

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Argument or discussion - 5/15/2008 7:17:18 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mztresn0w

If I disagree with something it is open for discussion. I refuse to argue. I will not yell and scream. It is healthy to disagree but it is wrong to yell and scream and argue. I don't expect my submissives to agree with me on everything. But I will not allow myself to be drawn into a yelling match. Who ever is getting that upset that they feel the need to yell and scream needs to stop and calm down. You can never take it back once you say something in the heat of angry. You can be do alot of damage to a person and never be able to repair that damage. There are some things that "I am sorry I didn't mean to say" just doesn't cover.


I couldn't agree with you more and I'm not quite sure how I left this out of my original post.  My counselor told me...and since I incorporated it, I deal with things a lot better...that any time you cannot walk away and get yourself calmed down enough within an hour or two to discuss in a constructive way rather than a destructive way; any time you "need" to confront in a "let it all hang out" manner, damn-the-consequences-no-control-of-your-emotions way rather than let yourself calm down first, then you are the one with the bigger problem than the person you are angry at.

There's a world of difference between telling someone "I don't understand your behavior right now, Sir.  There doesn't seem to be any point to what you're having me, especially when you know I don't like doing things I don't understand...and that makes me angry" and "With all due respect...you're acting like a stupid idiot Ma'am because what you're telling me to do makes no fucking sense at all".  The first one surely indicates a difference of opinion but gives a starting point to discussion about it.  The second one is dismissive, rude and hurtful...tell me how much an apology along the lines of "I am sorry Ma'am, you know I don't think you're stupid" means when that is exactly what you've said?  If you don't think it, then why did you say it...to create hurt within the dominant?  Confusion?  Guilt?  Anger on their part?  Because you cannot control yourself in "the throe of your emotions"? A "yes" here would indicate to me that you were pushing buttons or, in the last case, an immaturity that you have yet to grow beyond.

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RE: Argument or discussion - 5/15/2008 7:29:24 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

I wonder why so many people have this image of TPE or Master/slave relationships as being so harsh, that a slave is not permitted to express thoughts, feelings/emotions, and point of views... let alone be permitted to have any? 



I agree with LadyHathor in that it is because many people outside D/s or M/s dynamics don't "get" the difference between dominance and domineering...they see dominants as arrogant and controlling and self-centered with everything centered around them with no room for disagreement.  Sadly, many dominants ARE that way...domineering rather than dominant, controlling rather than being in control, and maintaining a belief system that slavery or submission means no disagreement...they are unable to see that someone can disagree with them and yet, due to their submission or slavery and their commitment to honoring it, will follow through on obedience to the dynamic even through their disagreement with one point or another. 

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Argument or discussion - 5/16/2008 8:45:43 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty
Argue = compete = one wins and one looses
Discuss = everybody wins


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Discussion is more a sharing of perspectives while arguing is trying to force a particular perspective onto another.


I thought those were both useful. My point is to fight/argue/discuss a topic fairly. No name-calling. No disrespect. The goals is to arrive at consensus.

FWIW, I *AM* Italian.

And while I do sometimes speak so loudly it sounds like yelling, I am just talking. Now that's Italian!

I rarely speak loudly during an emotional or important discussion - I want to be clear-headed and make myself understood. I probably speak even more quietly than normal.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Argument or discussion - 5/17/2008 1:14:51 AM   
StormsSlave


Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline 		Thank you, Poenkitten, for your thoughtful and honest reply.  It's always a pleasure to read your posts.

My Lord and I argue.  It happens rarely, and we retain our respect for one another, but voices get raised, and feelings get hurt.  Most of the time we realize we have only misunderstood one another, anyway, and find our way to solving it before it's too much hurt.  We love each other very much, and truly hate to fight.  We'd much rather make each other laugh and cuddle one another instead of argue and disagree.  When it happens, we are quick to forgiveness and love.  We don't have a lot of angry sex, but we have great make up sex!

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RE: Argument or discussion - 5/17/2008 7:01:12 AM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		Irish, Apache and Black Here, I get drink, scalp you and it is all your fault for years of oppression.  Having lived in several "ethnic" neighborhoods in NY and other parts of the country I can state that the Italians don't have a corner on the market of loud greetings that can sound like arguments. Grandmother who was full blooded Apache could finish an argument with a look, but she could also wing a cast iron skillet with the accuracy of a baseball, and while extremely quiet in an argument was heard as loudly as a hissing cobra. Cold, deadly sound that low voice of hers.

Any how, Spanish, Black, Jewish (Yiddish is interesting at the top of someone's lungs and some of the curses? Whoo Boy), you name it, all have their decibel levels when they are in familiar surroundings and relaxed enough to let it all hang out.

poenkitten

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Argument or discussion - 5/17/2008 7:03:07 AM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you

Poenkitten

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Argument or discussion - 5/17/2008 7:05:26 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

Grandmother who was full blooded Apache could finish an argument with a look, but she could also wing a cast iron skillet with the accuracy of a baseball, and while extremely quiet in an argument was heard as loudly as a hissing cobra. Cold, deadly sound that low voice of hers.


poenkitten


i think quite a few of us had grandmothers like this. And did you ever notice...the smaller they are the more power they had???


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RE: Argument or discussion - 5/17/2008 10:38:59 AM   
abcbsex


Posts: 478
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mzbehavin

If someone yells at me i withdraw. My ex husband learned early on how to shut me up. To this day i dont like to yell. If my voice is raised, something is seriously wrong.



I feel very much the same way as this. Just recently an attitude Alpha had towards one of my friends drove me to this point, he knew by my tone that he had touched a raw nerve and going farther would do some damage. He was actually proud of me for expressing my frustration with him by just showing how genuinely upset I was, no names or pettiness were needed.

Alpha's family is a family of yellers... they yell even when they agree with each other! So when he'd yell during what felt like a fight to me, it meant nothing more to him than a simple statement. Afterwards though, I'd feel hurt and keep my opinions to myself because I didn't want to be yelled at again. He had no idea the impact his tone had on me for the longest time. I'm still working through this, but I don't think I'll ever get to the point where I'll yell regularly.

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Profile   Post #: 59
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